Here Today... Gone To Hell!

Several people have been injured after explosions on the Underground network and a double-decker bus in London.

A police spokesman said there were "quite a large number of casualties" at Aldgate Tube Station.

And Scotland Yard confirmed one of several reports of explosions on buses in the city - in Tavistock Place - but said the cause was not yet known.

UK Home Secretary Charles Clarke said several explosions in central London had caused "terrible injuries".

"The health services are in support to deal with the terrible injuries that there have been," Clarke told reporters outside Downing Street.

Number 10 said it was "still unsure" whether the explosions were a terrorist attack and although casualties were reported, no further details were yet available.

Ministers are meeting to clarify the situation and the government will make a statement later, Leader of the House Geoff Hoon told the Commons.

One caller to BBC Five said his friend had seen "the bus ripped open like a can of sardines and bodies everywhere".

And the Press Association quoted union officials as saying sources had told them there had been at least one explosive device on the Underground.

   
There was immediately smoke everywhere and it was hot and everybody panicked. People started screaming and crying
Jacqui Head
BBC News

Bus 'ripped apart' in explosion

British Transport Police said incidents took place at Aldgate, Edgware Road, King's Cross, Old Street and Russell Square stations.

Scotland Yard confirmed they were assisting with a "major incident" and said there were casualties.

Hospitals have said they are no longer accepting non-emergency cases, BBC Five Live reported.

The National Grid, which supplies power to the Underground, said there had been no problems with its system which could have contributed to the incidents.

'Screaming and crying'

Jacqui Head, from BBC News, who had just left King's Cross station on a Piccadilly Line train as an explosion happened, said: "Everything was normal. Suddenly there was a massive bang, the train jolted.

"There was immediately smoke everywhere and it was hot and everybody panicked. People started screaming and crying."

The train was kept in the tunnel for 20 minutes and no announcement was made to explain the delay to passengers, she added.

Liberal Democrat MP Simon Hughes, near Kings Cross, told Five Live: "My only thought in the midst of all this confusion is that after the celebration of yesterday (for the Olympic 2012 London success) for people to be evil enough - if it is the intentional causing of death and injury - and think that they can justify this in any circumstances is completely unacceptable."

London Fire Brigade said four crews were at Liverpool Street and more were on their way.

Another passenger, who had left the Tube at Fenchurch Street Station, and walked to Aldgate East, told BBC Five Live that he saw injured people.

"As I walked through the bus station I could see people lying on the ground, black, as if they'd been covered in smoke. There were about three or four people on the floor being treated."

Eyewitness Paul Woloszyn from BBC News, who was at Blackhorse Road station on the Victoria Line, said: "We were told there was a bomb at Liverpool Street station.

"I was on the Tube, and they stopped the train and told everyone to get off and evacuate the station."

He said staff had said the entire Tube network had been affected, and leaflets had been handed out with details of alternative bus routes.

Another eyewitness, Dorothy Molloy, had been on a Tube train at King's Cross and said "staff just chucked everyone out of the station".

She said staff there had not given any details, but she said two passengers she had spoken to had said they had received messages saying there had been bombs.

"People didn't really know what was going on, they were just huffing and puffing and saying how annoying it was," she said.

"People don't seem to be panicked, but there's so many police and ambulances coming into the areas. People are just concerned, and some are just annoyed at the delay."


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4659093.stm

that what's i have been trying to tell english people, tony blair has made ennemies and although you diss chirac, we won't have bombs.

And i have almost died in an IRA bomb years ago, so i know how terrible a bomb is, and you have to live with why you lived, and why they didn't.

Yes - we should just sit back and let terrorists do whatever they want - Chirac is a stupid goon. The french plan of doing nothing is a great one as long as they can sit around doing nothing while someone does.

Apparently BBC is saying its Al-Queida that have planted the bombs. Thers also 2 people dead at one Lopndon hospital so far. I guess all this will do is silence the anti-war protesters and make people in Britain more pro-war. Id be intrested to see what happens after this in releation to Iraq/Afganistan.

Oh my god...

Courage to England.

This is so sad.....




I was just about to head out when I found out.




/jarmo

Although my heart does go out to the families who have lost people; it is completely unjust to automatically blame Arab groups with no evidence whatsoever. There is one word for that-racist.

If you look at my above post youll find that i said the BBC are reporting this. Arab TV has apparently reported that this is the work of Al-Queida - so i wasnt just dumping it on the arabs.

I know that, my post wasn't directed at you, it was at the people who are reporting it was Al-Queida without any solid proof

Correct me if im wrong - but i dont belive anyone has reported it as Al-Queida without solid proof.

Well there are people reporting that Al-Queida are behind the bombings. Where is their proof? Have Al-Queida come forward and claimed that they were behind the bombings?

Well your post is wrong in a couple of ways - 1) Arab TV and Al Queida experts are reporting they think its them - i trust they have more knowledge on the matter than you and 2) Why are you defending Al Quedia!

1) I will believe it when Al-Queida themselves come forward and claim they were behind the bombings, or there is some other solid proof 100% that they are responsible. Experts can be wrong too.
2) I am not defending Al-Queida, I am defending the right of innocent until proven guilty. And it is also because I am suspicious of international government blaming these things on groups such as Al-Queida, 100's of thousands of innocent Arabs have died on a wild goose chase for WMD's that are still not proven to even exist, and on another wild goose chase for Osama Bin Laden who has yet to be found. I do not want another bogus war carried out in the middle-east wherein thousands of innocent people are murdered for no reason.

1) Sometimes Al-quedeia dont always come forward and admit it
2) You yourself are generalising all Arabs with Al-Quedia. Just becasue people blame Al-Quedia doesnt mean we blame Arabs in anyway! Even if it wasnt Al-Quedia there still guilty of other crimes. How are Al-Quedia "Innocent until proven guilty" - that statement is amazing! Im pretty sure they have proven themselves in other incedents that they are guilty of crimes and terrorism.

If it isnt them - then it isnt them, but at the moment im going with what the experts are reporting.

The BBC are reporting that on an Al-Quedia website there has been a stament posted claiming responsibility.

1) If they don't always come forward and admit it, they probably didn't do it, they always admit what they have done, if they are indeed guilty of THIS crime then I will admit I was wrong. I am just sceptical of western politicians blaming things on groups without proof.
2)If it appears to you I am generalising all Arabs with Al-Queida, that was not my intention, what I am trying to express is that Al-Queida and other groups such as this are blamed for these crimes, but it is always the innocent people who live in the country they operate in that end up suffering at the hands of western military. When I said "innocent until proven guilty", I was talking about individual terrorist attacks. There is no doubt in my mind that Al-Queida have been behind terrorist attacks in the past. But there is no solid proof at this time that they are behind THIS attack. Over the past few years I have become highly sceptic if what government tells it's public about wars/terrorist attacks. I believe nothing until there is un-deniable proof.

Fine, I withdraw my statements as I said I would. If Al-Queida claim responsibility, I believe they are responsible. Although, even BBC have said this has not been completely confirmed yet. If Al-Queida have indeed claimed responsibility as is being reported I believe it.

Blasts rock London, Blair says "terrorist attacks"
07 Jul 2005 11:38:31 GMT

Source: Reuters
 
(Adds quotes, details, background)

By Alistair MacDonald

LONDON, July 7 (Reuters) - Explosions rocked London on Thursday, killing several people and wounding scores in what Prime Minister Tony Blair called an apparent terror attack coinciding with a meeting of Group of Eight leaders in Scotland.

Witnesses saw the top ripped off a double-decker bus near Russell Square close to King's Cross train terminal and the twisted wreckage of another in Tavistock Square nearby.

Several underground subway stations also were hit.

"I was on the bus," said a dazed passenger on one of the buses that was hit. "I looked round and the seats behind me were gone."

Blair told reporters he would return from the G8 summit immediately to deal with the emergency.

"It is reasonably clear that there have been a series of terrorist attacks in London," he told reporters.

London has so far escaped the 2004 Madrid-style bombings blamed on al Qaeda, and the blasts on Thursday left London residents in shock.

Italy's interior minister said all of Europe was on alert.

Britain has been key ally of the United States in its war in Iraq, where al Qaeda is waging a bloody insurgency. The blasts occurred one day after London was awarded the 2012 Olympics.

There was no immediate claim of responsibility.

CONFUSION BLURS NUMBERS

It was unclear in all the confusion how many people were killed and wounded.

Police said two people were killed at Aldgate East underground station in the financial centre of the city, with a further 90 people wounded. Around 100 wounded people were taken to Royal London Hospital, 10 of them in critical condition.

London's police chief Ian Blair said there were indications of explosives at one of the blast sites.

"We are aware that one of the sites certainly does contain indications of explosives," he told Sky Television. "We are concerned that this is a co-ordinated attack."

People were seen streaming out of one underground station covered with blood and soot. Passengers were evacuated from stations across the capital, many in shock and with their clothes ripped to shreds, witnesses said.

The city's streets were gridlocked and financial markets plummeted as it became increasingly apparent that the blasts were an attack, and not a power surge on the underground train system as had been reported.

Security experts said the apparent attacks bore all the hallmarks of the al Qaeda network.

"If what we are looking at is a simultaneous bombing, and it does look like that, it would very certainly fit the classic al Qaeda methodology which centres precisely on that, multi-seated hits on transport and infrastructural targets," said Shane Brighton, intelligence expert at the Royal United Services Institute for Defence.

MARKETS PLUNGE

On the currency market, the Swiss franc hit a six-week high against sterling and rose more than 1 percent against the dollar following the explosions.

"The market is showing a textbook reaction, buying safe-haven currencies like the Swiss franc and euro and away from the dollar," said Marios Maratheftis, currency strategist at Standard Chartered.

Oil prices fell three percent and London's FTSE stock exchange had also lost around three percent.

Emergency services rushed to the Aldgate East underground station where police reported one incident at 8:59 a.m. local time (0759 GMT), the spokeswoman said.

"There were people streaming out of Aldgate station covered in blood," said Kate Heywood, 27, on her way to work.

"There are shards of glass there, it is chaos," she added.

Police sealed off large areas around other underground and mainline rail stations. Firemen donned chemical protection suits before rushing into stations.

Half a dozen people with soot-blackened faces and dishevelled clothes sat on the floor at Russell Square underground station or stood in shock as police cordoned off the area and ambulances crews raced in, one witness said.

The Great Eastern Hotel, which was hosting a conference on the Israeli economy, was evacuated. Israeli Finance Minister Benjamin Netanyahu cancelled plans to attend the conference.





/jarmo

Awful Again. everybody is ok here?

Jamie,
I still don't want another war.
What I hate most about terrorists is they attack innocent and unarmed citizens. That's all we need.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050707/ap_on_re_mi_ea/britain_explosions_al_qaida

Almost died? How close were you to dying?

Some people are saying it was Indonisia. Whoever it was they should be hung for such a guttless act.
My heart goes out to London.


 :peace:

Terrible news. My heart and prayers go out to the victims, their families, and all of London.

My heart stopped when I heard about the news. I have a dear friend in London and was able to get thru to call her to make sure she was alright. She is alright.

I know, it's a sensitive subject, but what gets to me is that more people die in bogus wars and wild goose chases trying to find these terrorists, and in the end, most of the time they ain't even found.

another one just throwing the "racist" term around.

no one reported that it was an arab group.....they reported that it MIGHT be an arab group.

and if one of your first thoughts as to who might be responsible for this is NOT al qaida, then you are living in another world. ?::)

May God bless the victims of this mass murder. I just heard that the death toll may go much higher. The United States will stand by you no matter what happens. Hopefully, the news is wrong about a higher death toll. Isn't there quite a few HTGTH members living in London? God , I pray that they are ok. If Al Queda killed any of us who's dream is to hear CD, its time for Bush to fuel up some nukes, and destroy the countries that needed to be destroyed after 9/11. These kinds of tragedies are going to keep happening until the U.S., Russia, and Britain realize you have to destroy those groups like they are a cancer.

There is no problem in thinking it might have been Al-Queida, but there is no need for the media to go throwing Al-Queida all over the news, saying it's Al-Queida with absolutely no grounds, if, as it is being reported, Al-Queida did admit guilt, then that's fine. I am ready to admit it's them, but assuming it's an Arab terrorist group with absolutlely no grounds is unjust, and yes, racist.

I was literally 3 steps up from someone who died behind me as the bomb exploded, i was projected onto the staircase of camden station and it saved my life.

How can you think that entire nations have to be destroyed because of an accute minority of people carrying out terrorist attacks. I bet if someone said America should be destroyed because of the KKK, you'd be up in arms, Bush has killed just as many, if not more innocent people in the middle-east as any terrorist group operating in the middle-east has in America.

"with absolutely no grounds"?????????

it's true, you are living in a fantasy world.

let's see,

- there is a war going on in the middle east and england has been a MAJOR player.
- a public transportation system was bombed (did you not hear what happened in spain??)
- and al qaeda have been bombing major cities around the world for years.

but yeah, to SUGGEST THAT MAYBE it was al qaeda is racist.

anyway, they have taken responsibility.

My prayers are with those who have been killed and injured and their families

I would ask those that insist on writing hurtful things (applying blame or justifications for the attacks as i have already seen written) to keep away from the thread as many of the members of this board, myself included, have family and friends who were using the underground at the time of the attacks

Although i am very very sad, and also because it brings memories back, i can't help but to wonder why none of you think raping wome nand kids in irak and torturing innocent people in abu graib is also terrorism and that we could be seen as opressors who started shit and who got people screaming revenge just like the irish screamed revenge on the british during 400 years after the actual deeds.

Is it because trhey are muslim that it makes a difference ?

or is it because they are using nowadays's tools and technologies, therefore, killing masses of people at once because it's more easy ?

They want revenge, you want revenge, where is the justification for all the blood spilled ?

As i said, i am VERY upset. But i will no caution any terorism, and surely not ours simply because we're greedy christians.

I do too, many people do, we do have commuters in our families. Does it mean we are not entitled to opinions ?

Thank you! That's exactly how I feel also. There are people here saying that these countries should be destroyed? That is terrorism also. The people responsible for this are definitely terrorists, but they are not the only ones. The American army is guilt of terrorism as bad as this if not worse. If there was an attack in Iraq and America were blamed with NO PROOF there would be hell raised, this is no different.

Bush killed as many people as the terrorists? Thats the dumbest thing I've heard in my life. Terrorists have been waging war on democracies for decades. The reason I mentioned destroying countries is because countries that sponsor these terrorists need to be held accountable for their actions. If Iranians, Afghanis, Indonesians, etc, get off on watching american buildings crumble to the ground and London buses exploding, then lets have them get off on their own destruction. Then they dont have to watch it on TV, they can have a front row seat.

It works both ways. America have been exploiting and murdering these people for years too. Both parties are guilty. And you think the innocent people in Arab countries being brutally murdered is somehow different to Americans and British being brutally murdered? It's not the governments of the Arab countries that are suffering, it's their people, while the Americans bomb their streets the leaders sit in a palace somewhere, unharmed, the people are dying. And you talk about the governments sponsoring the terrorists, who sponsors the governments? America, the ones that sell them arms, weapons etc.

i respect your opinions, but i think many have lost focus. remember, attacks like these occured long before the US invaded iraq.

the whole world supported the invasion of afghanistan. and al qaeda would be bombing nations in retaliation for that whether we invaded iraq or not. ?

i do think that torturing prisoners is wrong, as does the government of the US. which is why many have been punished strongly because of such actions. and i think it's unfair for you to accuse people of approving of such actions.

I think torture is never a solution and shows the sheer bestiality of our race.

Since human beings like to say they are superior to other animals, why don't they show it ?

There is a big difference in american and british citizens being killed compared to arab civilians. Why? Because when innocent arabs die, american and british citizens aren't dancing in the street celebrating it. I guarantee that right as we speak, there are arabs dancing to the death toll in London. Its disgusting. I wish this shit would have happened in the 1980's. Reagan would've bombed those fuckers back into the Stone Age. Some sort of major alliance is gonna have to be formed to rid our society of these terrorists once and for all.

Yeah maybe there's not people dancing on the streets in America and Britain, but there are fascist scumbags going on television saying they are "making progress" and that there's WMD's in Iraq when there's clearly not. They are going into Iraq and Afghanistan to murder people, and are using WMD's and attacks by groups representing a minority as an excuse. The people shown dancing on the streets are a minority, but they're the only people they televise to make it look like they have a reason to kill people who can't afford to fight back, never mind who are blamed for something a group of fanatics say they are doing in their name. It's selective journalism. Do you really think everyone in Ireland support what the IRA are doing in their name? It's the same thing.

Nothing to add

Jamie, its NOT the same thing! But I'm not debating this with you anymore. You are obviously knee deep in conspiracy shit and can no longer think for yourself. The Jamie-JamesLofton debate is now officially LOCKED.

My thoughts go out to the people of London.

My sympathies go out to the families and friends of the victims.

My heart goes out to those that were injured or killed in this cowardly attack.

The senseless loss of life accomplishes absolutely nothing.....

No, I'm the one that CAN think for myself, that's what I'm doing, if you read this whole thread, there are more people that agree with you than agree with me. I rest my case.

ENOUGH! Really.? Politicizing the death and injury of INNOCENT people, so soon after the fact, is disrespectful....

i think the main difference is that
* when british or americans dies they are killed by people who are seen as evil (and maybe are in the absolute) by 99% of human beings.
* when arabs die they are killed by people who are supposed to be the "nice ones, the good ones" in the eyes of the 99 same % ?of humanity.

Exactly! Both sides of the coin are evil, both are murderers. My heart does go out to the victims of this attack but it also goes out to the victims of innocent Iraqi's who are killed in these numbers DAILY

Very true. They are manipulated masses. Sometimes they act like animals. Really animals. I will never forget when the 9/11 happened, the immense euphoria in Gaza, they cut their tongues with knifes and they show their blood to the camera. That's where you stop and you think "can we really make peace with such retarded middle-age erea people?".

Civilized people can make peace each other. But it's much harder when you have to deal with people who live in a prehistoric erea.

But those people aren't the majority, they are just shown as the majority so America have an excuse to go to war. That's selective journalism, they're showing the people who celebrate these things happening to build public anger, and make them approve of going to war, and the worst part; it works.

conspiracy ?

Since when has humanism been linked to conspiracy ?

Since I came up with an argument he had no reply to. I really don't understand what the difference between British/American people getting killed and Iraqi/Arab people getting killed is.

LATEST: Police say at least 33 people have been killed in London blasts. More soon.

from BBC.co.uk

---

A series of bomb attacks on London's transport network has killed more than 30 people and injured about 350 others.
There were three explosions on the Underground - which police said left 33 dead - and one on a double-decker bus in which an unknown number died.



/jarmo

If im not wrong - those found of commiting crimes in Iraq and Afganistan have been or are being treid and put in prison for there action - THERES the big differance. Our leadership doesnt condone the crimes in Iraq and does something about it. Anyways this is all beside the point - the point is people died at the hands of terrorists today. RIP and lets hope we bring these people too justice.

what about a old tribe in the forest that do wierd things, cut their arms to please their gods, or sacrifice kids to please their gods .... if people behave differently that us  you think they're animals ? if they don't wear Japan rags jeans (thats what im wearing right now :) ) or wear gucci glasses they are animals ?

also you are taking the example of gaza... gaza is not really the most peaceful and happy place on earth, so don't expect them to think calm and wise like you do (soooo gooood ...)

god, 33 dead ?
tahts fucked up.

Now there is reports of 40 dead and over 360 injured.

My thoughts and prayers go out to all in England

If it is a retalliation for Sept 11, it took a long time for them to respond, no?

from Yahoo! news,

"A group called The Secret Organisation of al-Qaida in Europe today said it carried out the series of blasts in London in retaliation for Britain's involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/story/0,12780,1523397,00.html

London blasts: at least 33 are dead
4.41PM, Thu Jul 7 2005


Police said at least 33 people have died in a bombing attack on four tube trains and buses in London during the morning rush-hour.

The hotline for more information on casualties is 0870 156 6344.

At 8.51am, a blast occurred on a Tube train between Liverpool St and Aldgate East stations, 100 yards from Liverpool St. Seven people are reported to have died.

At 8.56am, an explosion ripped through a carriage on a Piccadilly Line train between King's Cross and Russell Square. Police said 21 died.

At 9.17am, five died on a Circle Line train at Edgware Road after a blast in one train which impacted on another passing it.

At 9.47am, a route 30 (Hackney-Marble Arch) double-decker bus had its roof blown off in Woburn Square. This incident also resulted in deaths, although the number is not yet confirmed.

Up to 1,000 people - including walking wounded - were injured, with 45 seriously hurt. The range of injuries included burns, amputations, chest and blast injuries, fractured limbs and smoke inhalation. A number of casualties have lost limbs. Others were taken to hospital covered in blood.

Police said they did not have any warning or intelligence to indicate the incident was about to happen. They are treating it as a terrorist incident.

They have also denied rumours that a suicide bomber was shot dead at Canary Wharf this morning, with a senior officer saying that as far as he knew, no such action took place.

From Aldgate, the injured were taken to the Royal London Hospital nearby, some ferried there on double-decker London buses.

A passenger on the train which exploded at Edgware Road said he saw several bodies in the wreckage. Police have said that apart from the five confirmed dead in this incident, four are critically injured and another eight seriously so.

The injured were taken to St Mary's Hospital, Paddington, and the walking wounded received first aid at the Hilton Hotel.

Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir Ian Blair said people in London should not travel, and appealed for 999 to be used only when lives are at risk.

He said no warning was given before the blasts and that there is evidence of explosives at least one of the explosion sites. Police said a controlled explosion will be carried out at Edgware Road station.

Home Secretary Charles Clarke said he did not know who was behind the blasts. Reports saying a group calling itself 'The Secret Organisation of Al-Qaeda Jihad in Europe' has claimed on a website that it is to blame. Intelligence experts are checking the claim out.

Buckingham Palace has been sealed off by armed police.


http://www.itv.com/news/13569.html


What a sad day hope no one here has been affected by this tragedy

My thoughts and prayers go out to everyone in London in this time of terrible tragedy. I hope everyone on this board who lives out there is safe, and hope anyone with family and friends there are safe as well.

Is George W.Bush or Tony Blair on trial?

I was shocked when I read about the news this morning my heart sank, heart goes out  to all those in London and the United Kingdom.

As far as Reagan yes yes he would! He wouldnt take that shit. Normally I'm very liberal and stuff, and don't like conservatives. But I respect Reagan Bush Sr and Bush Jr. They stand up and fight those bastards!

"They have such evil in their heart that they will take the lives of innocent folks. The war on terrorism is on," Bush

this absolutely horrible. all this terror makes me so angry i almost can't breathe. all terrorits should be skinned and burned alive, seriously.

my heart goes out to england today.? :no:

For what?

Individual soliders are on trail - for individual acts. Its not the policy of the UK or US armed forces to commit crimes against innocent people. When those unfortunate incidents do happen as a result of individual actions then those people are held for their actions.

For the murder of 100's of thousands of people. They may not have carried out the murders themselves but they are responsible for every one of them. If it's not their policy to commit crimes against innocent people then they aren't doing a very good job. They've killed a hell of alot more innocent people than they have terrorists during this war. If they are not trying to kill innocent people then why in God's name did they bomb a wedding in Afghanistan near the start of the war? (Just one incident that comes to mind)

Jamie, you really have a hate on for the US don't you!!!  Why don't you start an Anti_Bush thread instead of bitching about it in this thread. hmmm? I'm not saying your views are right or wrong but talk about the politics and shit elsewhere, use this thread for info and sympathy

I don't hate America, just it's government. Well I began by offering my sympathy as well as saying I thought it was unfair to blame on Al-Queida and then I got reply's disagreeing and it started a debate, I'll agree to stop arguing if everyone else does, I've just been defending myself and my opinion.

Until the oil runs out or we come up with new, practical fuel technologies dumb shit like this will continue to happen. Does anyone really think that George W. Bush gives a flying fuck if there's democracy in the Middle East? Does anyone really think that Dick Cheney thought Iraq had WMD's? Isn't N. Korea a way bigger threat to the USA than Saddam could of ever hoped to be? Why don't we invade them? Doesn't way worse shit happen everyday in Africa concerning human rights violations than what was going on in Iraq?

It's absolutely horrible that anyone , anywhere ever has to die like the people in London today, but that's what going to happen when Western civilation continues to live gluttonous lifestyles. We're all guilty.

I'm an intelligence officer with the Metropolitan Police.

37 confirmed dead.

There is no comfirmation about whether the alleged 'statement of responsibilty' is genuine. It is still being examined. But the site it was posted on was the same site that the information about the hostage who was murdered, Ken Bigley, was posted on.

terrible tragedy and my sympathies to those caught up in all this pointless terrorism

its strange that noone saw it coming...yet it was always going to happen, it was just a matter of when...

and its no surprise that its happened when the moronic George Bush is in Britain...

Oh, appeasement, some people never learn.

My heart goes out to all those people and everyone who lives there.   I can't believe what the world is coming too.   

How dare we come to the conclusion that it was islamic terrorists.? That would be absolutely absurd ::)

My gosh, you use this attack as a platform to attack the UK and the US, you are deranged and arent worth another reply from anyone. 

of course its naive to think that all al qaeda terrorists are arabs

Excuse me, islamic terrorists.

there is a difference between arabs and muslim.
what define al quaida is that they are muslim, their whole ideology is based on their religion, not their nationality or ethinicty.

so it's not an arab group, it's a muslim group. different.

thank you Nightrain . peace.

I was waiting for some left-winger to blame George Bush for this. ?What a fucking joke. ?The Uk does make its own decisions. ?Furthermore, they attacked us before we Bush decided to wage the war on terror. ?Until people realize that these islamic terrorists want to kill us not for the war on terror, but because we are not muslim, they hate our society, and they have had it our for non-muslims for hundreds of years we are never going to make progress.

yes, but muslims can be arabian and i doubt all al qaeda are muslim...it's also naive to call them a muslim group...they are all followers of the mass murderer bin laden, thats the only certainty

Bingo - they attacked the USA before the war in Afgansitan, Iraq or Terror - they attacked Spain in Madrid who have very little if any involvement in the war on terror. They bombed Bali in Indonesia - again very little involvment in Iraq/Afgansitan/war on terror. These people are just using the war as an excuse to carry out attacks which they would have done anyways. Its not about the war in iraq its about them wanting to implament Islamic extremist goverments in Western societys.

As much as I would like to criticise you, i will refrain...apart from one comment...they hate the US because of your interference in their country, thats what drove Bin Laden to be a mass murderer...hmmmm..and where are your sympathies nightrain? or did you forget?

few facts for you....Spain had armed troops in Iraq...Australia also had armed troops in Iraq (Bali is a favourite place for Australians to go on holiday and most of the dead were Australians)...and Istanbul was because of their involvement in giving a base for the US during the Iraq war...

I think what people are assuming is that this is an attack by foerign terrorsits who have come into the UK to attack us. The Home Secetary was just on TV saying he thinks this is an attack by "homegrown terrorists" aka Muslims that are either British or are permanetly based in the UK. Al-Quida works with a very lose structure - Osama Bin Laden and his high command do not plan every attack. They set out there goals then give indviduals within Al-Quida an open field to acheive those goals. While it may be Osama Bin Ladens overall goal to get rid of Western precene in the Middle East - the people who planned this attack most likely would have done so wether we were at war or not - its the fact that they want the UK to be an extremist country. It basically boils down to racial and religious hatred on their part.

If this is all about the Iraq war then why attack the US on 9/11? All that did was allow George Bush the ability to attack Iraq due to US and world outrage over terrorism and oppresion in the Middle East. No 9/11 and id give a fair bet there would have been no Iraq war. The US public wouldnt have supported it without 9/11. It makes no sense.

To get back on topic - with all of the massive, massive damaged casued in the blitz 65 years ago - we didnt give up, were not gonna crumble to these small time goons.

This is so pathetic and so sad..Whqat is the world comign to..Im only 16 and i see it already..you cant do anyhtign without worrying about shit..From our enviroment to terrorists to people stealing identity..This is so sad..My heart goes out to the victims and there families and somehting needs to be done

the Iraq War is just one part of a bigger picture...bin laden has always had a grudge against the USA because of America using their powers of influence in Saudi Arabia, this i recall was his main motivation to set up al qaeda which tries to suppress foreign influence in the Arab nations using extreme measures...the number of people killed on 9/11 probably was a surprise to Bin Laden and he probably thought he was untouchable as his groups were small and well spread out...he probably never anticipated that the USA would seek revenge for those deaths...Iraq was a follow on from Afghanistan...who knows why the Iraq war happened...another one of those mysteries

Man this sucks so much! Thankfully I don't live in London, but my dad does during the week, and many members of my family do, but they're all OK thank fuck.
This is a really shitty day for England, compared to yesterday which was great, we get to host the Olympics in 2012!

But... daaamn. I watched Sky News this morning on it, and the head of police said that the protection forces had put into action a well-rehearsed plan of action and that it was going really well. About five minutes later someone else said that he could confirm that the culprits WERE in fact Al Qaeda, so everyone who's saying "Don't blame it on the arabs all the time! You're being racist!" well it WAS them... ?>:(

Man, Bin Laden is such a fucking dickhead. He obviously doesn't get that all you have to do is be a decent person and when you die you'll go somewhere better. The nice guy does NOT always fucking lose. ?:rant: I fucking hate people like that! What the hell is his problem!? What exactly did we do that was so fucking bad that he decides he has to kill shit loads of people and make us all go paranoid about security!!!?? WHAT THE HELL DID WE DO!!??
There is such a fucking government conspiracy about this. The fuckin' illuminati try and cover it all up and they know more than anyone outside the government will EVER know, more so than Tony Blair. More so than fuckin' dumbass Dubya. And of course none of us will ever get to know any of it because its "classified" information! WELL, if it's gunna affect me, my family, my friends or my lifestyle, then I WANT TO KNOW! Don't you?

Bin Laden is one individual, and certianly islamic terrorism is much broader than him.? Fanactic muslims have been killing non-muslims for centuries: Phillipines, Kashmir, Africa (most recently Sudan), Israel.?

For those that think getting out of the middle east will make Al Qaeda go away, you are very mistaken.? In an interview before 911 Bin Laden said that the Somolia ordeal (Black Hawk Down) where Clinton pulled out all troops after the incident, emboldened them to believe that the US was weak and that the Western world could be defeated.? Letting them prevail with these tactics will only make things worse, especially since their end goal isnt simply just to have the US not meddle in the Middle East.? Anyone without blinders on can realize that their intentions are far greater.

Of course I sympathize.? I, unlike yourself, love London and the people.? Furthermore, I have sympathized in person to many of my friends over there already who I have emailed and called.? I shouldnt have to defend my sympathy over this matter to someone that "cant stand London", and that has more posts in this thread condemning the west than islamic terrorism.? Im sorry, I starting reading this thread and I couldnt believe my eyes on some of the posts and I had to respond.? Feel free to criticize, I certainly will criticize your posts when I think they are ridiculous as I did above.

more facts dude: i dont hate london, although there plenty of more vibrant cities in the world ...ive had some great times down there...london companies maybe for their bias, the government maybe because i dont support labour, although they are my second choice party...everyone is an individual, i like some individuals, i dont like other individuals,

where am i condemning the west?...because of my Bush post? because i explained some facts about Al Qaeda like others have done?...or did my Bin Laden mass murderer quote pass you by?

more generally, that's called nihilism. They also have the cult of death with their "martyr" concept and blablabla...
Nihilism is the right concept to describe it.

next targets: Danemark, Italia (that's what I heard on TV)

France is also a target, but not for the moment (for different reasons).

well, history did not start with g w bush and 9/11. bin laden, afganistan, american's strikes were arleady in motion.

it's pretty useless to go on a " they attacked first" thing. its a vicious circle. both sides are evil.
one is pure evil. and it's obvious. they're hopeless, stupid and they became evil.
the other side is evil too, wrapped in fake "goodness". is that worst ?

What???? are u seriouse? what was Mr. Blair to do, side with the terrorist just to spare from being attacked? no sorry mam but this is a war on terrorism and soon enough that war will hit you and you will wish that your country hadnt been cowards and took a strong stance against terror, ?OH YEA TERRORIST OUR ENEMY"S OF THE FREE WORLD AND LAST I CHECKED THE FRENCH WAS A PART OF THAT!!!!!

The problem is for years we've had leaders with no balls who've been soft and let pretty much anybody into the country, least in WW1 & 2 you knew who you're enemy was and where they were our country is full of terrorists who we've quite happily let into the country because of our relaxed laws, if we had been a bit more picky about who we let in this problem would never had happened, and before anyone brings it up i am not be racist i am just stating the obvious in previous wars it was one nation against another and now it's all mixed, they're not all the enemy but how are we supposed to know which is which?  And why the hell target London and innocent people, the only ones who care are friends, family and people like us who are not in a position of power to do anything, why not traget our leaders who they have a problem with? Does anyone think they're going to be having sleepless nights...no.

Thats exactly the role the US could have taken in WWII. ?Its not in our backyard, we will just stay out of it. ?Luckily, Roosevelt knew better.

i had to look up nihilism in wikipedia...but i agree...the belief in nothing is about a good a description as any for these people

but dont believe everything you hear on TV

You have nailed the problem on the head. ?This is exactly our problem in the war on terror and the war in Iraq. ?Certain people seem to hate George Bush far more than they hate the people that Bush is fighting. ?You cant win a war when you have Senators on Capital Hill analogizing our miltary to nazis. ?There are far too many people that care more about the politics of bashing Bush than actually winning the war on terror. ?That is frightening to me. ?I think a legit question would be to ask some of these people who they hate more, Bush or Bin Laden? ?Im not they will all be honest in their answer, but it shows the problem. ?The funny thing is, it is very similar to the China thread which asked: which country do you prefer? ?We had people defending the results that put China ahead of the US. ?That makes me scared to figure out the answer to my question of Bush or Bin Laden. ?

Its a big problem, and I dont think you are racist for brining up a valid point. ?I dont know how many people are going to have to die before we figure out that we shouldnt search a 90 year old Italian lady as closely as we should search a 25 year old alien from Saudi Arabia. ?

exact. And imagine, with all our problems in Europe, there are still people who want Turkey to join europe...imagine the desaster...

Especially lefties people. I think we need to lock our european fronteers during a certain period of time, and "clean-up" our countries of islamists who are already there because it's too easy for terrorists to do what they want when they want in Europe. lock the fronteers and clean-up as soon as it's (still) not too late.

Its terrible this has happened. British people are strong so we cant be beaten in morale just by that, all you have to do is watch the news and listen to how calm most people are. I just think the UK is used to shit, but this was large scale shit.

I think something really should be done about these terrorists, they need to be hunted down, my first thing would be to get all the terrorist factions in the UK out.

I think one of the biggest problems this has caused is the fear factor, i saw it today by my own dad. Yesterday he was saying how he wanted to go to the olypics, today he was like no way terrorist will attack there. Shows how it works.

Terrorism is quite new in europe. But in other modern countries like Israel for exemple, they have had to deal with terrorism for over 30 years. In every shopping centers or restaurants, there are security guards. Some of them are even students, especially in restaurants or bars, it's part of their job to have their "security hour" a day. everybody takes care of everyone else. people become very tight each other because they are in the same boat. That's what is going to happen in Europe I think.
the best solution to avoid it is the intelligence system like MI5 or Mossad or the french one (i forgot the name) wich is amazing. French intelligence system is very developped. repression is absolutely needed, but prevention is still the best way by far to prevent attacks.

i absolutely agree, drastic action needs to take place. i used to think the opposite, i opposed the aggressiveness of the war on terror, even the war in afghanistan, not to mention iraq. i saw no good in bombing and creating more anger and taking more lives, but now as terror spreads to europe and keeps taking innocent lives something drastic needs to be done. we need to fight back any way we can, that meaning our leaders and our military. ?we can't let these sick-minded, twisted fundamentalists take lives like this, we just can't accept that people have to be frightened to ride a bus in their own city. and the best way to show them is obviously not talking about it. i never thought i'd say this but i've had enough, i feel sick. we need to find these groups and wipe them out so fiercly that potential recruitees will be afraid to even go near them.

I heard the news before I went to work in the morning and was just utterly disgusted.  I was always afraid that another major terrorist attack would occur in the U.S. or in a  U.S. allied countried.  I think this will be THE wake up call to everybody around the world of the dangers of terrorism.  When the U.S. declared a "war on terror" , lots of oppposition went against it ( liberals, the French, democrats, etc. ) .  Now, I think there will be major changes happening soon.  I hope to god we can all just get along and finally focus on eliminating terrorism, instead of bashing Bush all the damn time.   The problem can't be dealt with by taking over every "bad"country, cash incentives, or promises.  It needs ACTION FROM MORE THAN A FEW COUNTRIES.  We need to crackdown on terrorists in our own countries, and we need to look down on those that don't.  You don't want to get rid of the terrorists in your country, fine, you wont have economic ties with any of the countries that do.   We might lose a little money, but who cares?  The problem of terrorism won't go away on it's own, it needs to be dealt with now.   

Oh, and my deepest sympathies to anyone affected by the tragedies of today.

this is about the best post yet, i stand behind this 100%. more action needs to be taken, and yes, the wake-up call you are talking about has already affected me. i think this has gotten so far that more and more people will stand behind the war on terror. this just can't continue, i don't want my future kids growing up not feeling safe in their own damn city. no way. this needs to be dealt with. now.

nothing to offend you personally, but that is a typical propaganda-brainwashed american answer. True that Islamic and Christian people had thier differences in the past, but you are honestly think that muslims would attack america because they hate their society? If it was a religious battle why attack america? If i was goign to kill christian people, i know i'd personally atatck the vatican first, because that is the ehart of everything catholic. next targets would be the church of england, church of russia, and the church fo greece. dont tell me that 9/11 happened because of religious differences, rather, look into the truth and find out why it really happend. I reccomend farenhigt 9/11. Then you'll see the true side of bush.

EDIT:

Al Qaida is a possibility, but they arn't the only terrorist group in the world. One of the most influential and well-known, but not the only one.

I cant believe that in this civilised world there are these inhuman animals who want nothing but death and destruction for no decent reason. Now we are at war. I say hit them ten times harder. Hopefully this will be the last straw and the G8 will discuss extermination.

i think that will be very hard, but we need to fight back and not seem vulnerable. and i was about to call them animals too, but then i decided calling these pathetic excuses for life animals would be an insult to every animal on the planet.

After watching the debates on Tv tonight. One of the theories that keeps cropping up is that these could be people who were actually born in Britain and have joined extremist groups - smaller splinter groups. ?To think that those people have benefited from the freedoms our relatives have fought for and we believe in. And then turn on us is hard to accept, in some ways more so than if they came from outiside, if you know what i mean. ?

So for a moment go with this idea, because it is possible. Then how do you tackle that kind of thing? ?You can't simply bomb your own country, i think you have to tackle it on many levels.  You have to maybe stop separatist schools? ?Make everybody intergrate on a smaller local level, so a more positive relationship grows between the different communities? ?Cut poverty, give people aspirations and a chance to better themselves? ?As these issues do in some cases over-cross. ?Try and understand Why they allow themselves to be brainwashed into believing this bile, that all these cowardly acts have some kind of link with Religion and something right. ?When it is clearly goes against those principles.

That maybe a little too idealistic an idea, but i think we do have to try and tackle it on as many levels as we can, on a Global scale as well as National. ?It is a huge task, but we do have to try to out smart them, out number them and try our best not to allow them to spoil our way of life. ? ?

Anyway sorry for going on, but i think it's good that at least some of us can talk these issues out. And hear different opinions. Best wishes to all friends in London. ?

Not to offend you personally, but I think you have the typical European brainwashed response.  You like to think that all of this is caused by George Bush.  Sorry, but look at history.  How do you explain Israel, the Philipines, Kashmir, Sudan, etc etc.  How do you explain this?  The fact is, Christiainity and other religions went through a reformation where Islam never did.  These people kill in the name of Islam not just beause of American action and George Bush.  Yes, I think these extremists hate our society.  They hate everything about it. 


Of course they hate other religions, but the battle isnt simply against christians, its against non-muslims.  History shows this to be true.  Sure Al Qaeda might have started right after the Gulf War, but islamic extremism has been around much longer than that. 

You have  a lot to learn son.  I suggest you look to sources other Michael Moore.  A propogandist that hates Bush is hardly someone to go to for an objective look on Bush or America.  It sadens me everytime I read a post from a European using that movie as a source.  It just furthers my thoughts that many of our own citizens are helping them defeat us.



Let me ask you this:  what do we do?

You claim that  we caused this on ourselves right?  What do we do now that we caused it?  Do we appease them?  Do we leave the entire region and let them turn it into a terrorist hub?  Do we leave Israel out to dry?  What is answer?

All I hear from the left is: this war is wrong; that war is wrong; dont touch the Koran that way; dont interrogate Al Qaeda; we should provide them lawyers; they have the right to hate us; we shouldnt racially profile; the US troops are Nazis; GWB is an idiot; GWB went to Iraq for oil; etc etc etc.

When was the last constructive idea given by anyone on the left about how to fight this war on terror.  It is criticize, criticize, criticize.  Thats it.  If you dont want us holding people in Guantanamo, what do you suggest we do with them?

How are we supposed to get information out of these people?

You dont like the patriot act, how the fuck are we supposed to nail these terrorist cells before they kill more people?

This war never was the war on terror for some people, it was the war against George W Bush.  Sure Bush has his faults, but I think his main fault is that he isnt fighting this war hard enough.  How many people are going to have to die before OUR OWN citizens decide to take our side instead of the side of the enemy.

If I were a tighty righty, I'd say yes. So no. No condemnation as far as I can tell. Unless of course one were to read too much into your comment and argue the generalized angle of condemning the populace that elected the man. But like I said, that'd be reading too much into it as it's not there to be had in the first place.

This is what supporting a stupid, everlasting, almost useless war. I?m sorry for the victims of course. Sad to see how rotten our world is.

August, i'm glad you are one of the people starting to see the light. This terrorism situation is far more serious than alot of people believed. Bush really fucked up on 9/11. If Reagan had been president, there would have been a massive worldwide nuclear strike on all arab countries. Bush also made a mistake in not forming an alliance with Russia. We have Al Queda to deal with, and they have the Chechens, who are affiliated with Al Queda. With Russia and the United States killing everything that moves in countries that sponsor this evil, there's not a damn thing the rest of the world could do about it. Bush missed a big opportunity. The only way to deal with these terrorists is with barbaric violence. I actually applaud CIA torture of terrorists and civilians living among these terrorists. I remember an article that discussed some of those beheadings that happened last year. The CIA and British intelligence went to the village where the beheadings occured, and murdered everyone there. We need more of that if this evil is ever gonna stop.

thats a sterotypical comment based on ones religion. thats like saying all christains are power-hungry people who use the pope to gain more power for themselves. I never said bush caused all this, im merely saying that you shouldnt have such prejudice towards muslims just because a muslim caused 9/11



What makes you think they hate other people's religions. true i know all about ji-had and all that but the crusades were different, a completely different senario. And islamic people arn't the only extremists. christains are the main ones, neo-nazis are one prime example of christian nazis. so saying islamic extremism has been around longer than that sin't legit, because christian extremism and jewish extremism has been around even longer.


he may hate bush, but the material in his film isnt false. hes exposing bush using legit and proper resources.


i never said we caused it, i just said that your blaming musils isnt going to prove who did it or anything. im just saying beause of this whole thing with american and the arab nations dont be so quick to assume its arab-musilms.

lemmi let you in a little secret: yes im european, Croatian and damn proub of it, but I was born and raised in Canada, so i dont have a completely European perspective of things, but also a Canadian perspective.

Im just saying that you shouldnt be so quick to assume that a paticular group caused this. i could be saying serbs caused this because i dislike them, and they are also extremists and terroroists, but i dont because i have no backround information on what happened. if the majority fo them were muslim, then i would agree with you and say, yes they were Al Quida or muslim of whatever, but at them moment we dont know.

What have ordinary Iraqis and ordinary Arabs got too do with Al-Quida?! Going round killing innocent people is just going to fuel the fires of Al-Quedia. We need to attack terrorism not every Arab on the planet. That is just like saying every American or European is a White supremicist - extreme generalisation. In my opinion ordinary muslims are crucial in the fight against terror. I think the majority of them - definatly in the Western world if not in the Middle-East reaslise or will soon realise that extremism is detremental to themselves and their countrys. What we need is a harsh attack on terrorists while also bringing muslim countrys and the muslim population onaboard to hit the extremesits where it hurts. After all ordinary muslims are the ones who can prevent people being recruited into extremism and tip off security forces about extremist activity.

I found this paragraph in a Reuters news article - i feel it sums up my opinion and the opinion of alot of people i know.

"Amid the twisted metal and mangled bodies left by Thursday's devastating bomb attacks, Londoners took pride in their tradition of fortitude and quiet defiance. "As Brits, we'll carry on ? it doesn't scare us at all," said 37-year-old tour guide Michael Cahill. "Look, loads of people are walking down the streets. It's Great Britain ? not called 'Great' for nothing."

god, now i know why violence will never stops. some people are really stupid.
torture, nuclear ... thank you mr."not evil" .....

No. All arabs are not al quaeda. Some arabic countries even fight them (morocco, egypte). A large majority of arabs want to live in peace. Do you know arabs? Because I'm jewish and I know lots of them. With some of them, we are real friends. Childhood friends. They have nothing to do with islamism. They are high educated people and just want to live like you, like me, like everybody out there: a normal life. They have nothing to do with terrorists. Some of them even told me they were ashamed of al quaida terrorist attacks or Hamas suicide bombing. When people are educated and have money, they think different. The arabic countries problems is that they live in the middle age erea, politically (dictatures everywhere, control of the masses), economically (the people don't have what to eat) and also mentally (kamikazes "fashion", nihilism). They try to find responsibles of their lack of evolution and their global failure (modern societies, christians, jews etc...).
When you go to the middle east (I went 15 times in Israel), the contrast is very strong. On the one had you have an ultra-modern society (and the only one democracy and free country in the whole middel-east), a kind of mini-california mixed with a mini-europe, and on the other hand you've got the arabic societies who don't succeed to develop themselves and live in a total failure.

Once they will economically develop, they will mentally develop, and things may change. The economy is almost everything.

Oh and if the US attacked a place in Afghanistan or Iraq (which they have done) and someone was expressing sympathy towards them (which would never happen) someone like you wouldn't turn around and say, "Oh, we did it because they brutally murdered our people in terrorist attacks"? Give me a break!

Yeah! and while we're at it let's kill every German for being a Nazi, every American for being in the KKK, every Irish person for being in the IRA. That is an extremely generalist and racist view, kill every Arab because they're behind the world's problems. You're sounding a bit like a certain Mr. Hitler there

as Jon Stewart would say " The Hilter compareason has been unleashed !!" -  a step has been made in this discussion :)

if people cannot tell the difference then....

(Oliver Hardy) i have nothing tooo say hmm hmmmm

good lord, I actually agree with your post  :o :hihi:

But if you truly feel this way, then why are you so opposed to Turkey joining the EU?

In my research lab, we collaborate with the Univ. of Tel Aviv.  That is a great insitution, and a lot of cutting edge research is done with the help of Israelis and... Iranians!  It's just sad that Iran is a fundamentalist country - they could do a lot more with their resources and population.

One thing that's bugging me is... if we had actually captured bin Laden instead of losing him in the mountains  ::) - would this attack on the UK still have happened?

Some of the liberal posts I've seen here are pretty pathetic. Its your pacifist feelings that will ensure more 9/11's in the years to come. You do not negotiate with these people! You do not offer them peace deals! You do not call a cease fire! The only thing that speaks to these people is mass murder, and they need to be given a very large dose of it. You want this War on Terror to stop? Start sending large numbers of these people to Allah, by way of large mushroom clouds. They love burning american buildings. They love burning London buses and trains. They love burning spanish trains. They love young burning bodies in nightclubs in Bali. I cant wait to see how much they love the annihilation of Baghdad, Tehran, Kabul,Jakarta, Riyadh, Amman, Damascus,etc. Since they get off on mass murder, they're gonna love it when those cities are destroyed. Thats tens of millions dead. That should keep their appetites satisfied for at least a few years.

Well, I bet most of the liberal people that have been involved in this thread think your posts or pathetic if not maniacal. (I certainly do). You are taking a (and I'm not afraid to say it) nazi view point on how to deal with terrorists. Wipe out the entire Arab/Muslim population, those are? the most insensitive and racist ideals I have ever heard in my life. Wiping out (or the threat) of wiping out an entire creed/race/religion/nationality or whatever it may be does nothing but inflict terror on ordinary people, therefore making whoever carries out these aabsurd and insane acts a TERRORIST. The one thing you have laid claim to hating for this whole thread. By even trying to wipe out an entire race you are no better than Hitler.

Jamie, I said I wasn't gonna debate with you anymore, but I'll bite. I didnt say to destroy the entire arab population. There are Arab countries that want this war to end. I advocate destroying the countries who sponsor this evil. If countries were destroyed because of their ties to terrorists, do you think there would be more countries lining up to support them? No! I really wish this had happened on Reagan, Thatcher, and Gorbachev's watch. They would have dealt with this evil in the way I described, and we wouldn't have to be dealing with it now.

what a dumb ass...i guess the populus of these cities, especially baghdad would welcome the liberation of their city...even though its a minority of people who are creating the terrorism, you advocate to destroy them all...even the police trained by the troops, even the people who pulled down the statue of saddam, all the women and children tortured by saddams regime...and there is you wanting to destroy their city...do you even think what you are saying?

The government sponsor it, not the people, what about them? How would you like it if someone came and bombed the shit out of your country because they don't like your damn government? That is absolutely absurd. These people would obviously move out of their country if they were able.
Just because a group operates under the name of the country it's based in it does not mean they have full support of their citizens. And I live in a country that experienced that first hand. Not in my generation, thankfully, but in my father's generation and his father's generation and years before that. The IRA have operated and continue to operate under the banner of Ireland, and who gets the blame? WE DO! We are the ones who have suffered under assholes such as Thatcher, and others as far back as friekin Oliver Cromwell. They think butcherin us and killin our language, and culture was the right way to end extreme belief in the freedom of Ireland. IT IS NO DIFFERENT IN THESE COUNTRIES. They are spoken for by a group of insane extremists and they are the ones who suffer when assholes like George Bush and Tony Blair think that bombin the shit out of their land and killin them is going to effect the terrorists in any way. Innocents are killed not terrorists.

Ermm. this extremism did happen on Thatcher, Reagan and Gorbachevs watch. The Russians were defeated by it in Afgansitan and AMERICANS helped to train these people. Bin Laden himself was trained and armed by US forces acting against Russia in Afganistan. I think your also overlooking the fact that just because countrys such as Iran, Iraq etc. were or are led by people who sponser terrorism, doesnt mean the population are behind it. You are just as bad as terrorists - kill, kill, kill, mass murder etc. etc. theres no differance between you and Bin Laden.

unfortunately they are, because they are manipulated.

IQ, those people do those things because we're standing right beside them with machine guns while they're doing it. Here's an example of these "innocent" men, women, and children of Iraq that you love: About a year and a half ago, about 8 Italian diplomats were dragged out of their SUVs and slaughtered on the sidewalk. This happened early in the morning, rush hour traffic driving by. The terrorists stood next to these bodies and gloated, they also desecrated the bodies. While this was going on, 'innocent' women and children walked by them on the sidewalk acting like it was nothing. Cars kept driving by the scene honking their horns and cheering. This macabre scene kept going on until they heard american tanks coming in the distance. The cars fled the scene, and the terrorists and 'innocents' went running into buildings. When the tanks got there, it was such a repulsive scene that the tanks fired at the nearby buildings, hopefully killing every person who witnessed the degradation of the diplomats.

I dont love the Iraqi people - but if there were armed poeple with machine guns walking the streets doing these things - as an ordinary unarmed person you probably wouldnt say anything about it for fear of your own life. Im not saying these things are right - just facts. And the facts are - you armed and trained these people on "Reagans watch" - you more than anyone are responsible for there ability to spread terror and attacks.

my thoughts are the same as Linekers...good response...

there are 600 murders a year in Washington DC...do you recommend we atomise the whole city of DC to rid yourselves of the murderers? of course not

you have to understand that these people have been under a regime that has tortured people for decades, they are already scared and like you and I would just want to protect themselves and their family..they choose to do nothing because of these fears and threats and the history of the country's regime...fear also probably made at least some of them cheer too...if you didnt cheer you may make yourself an odd one out and maybe be seen as a sympathiser to the other side...the base level in psychological theories put your own personal safety and family's safety as the most important things...just about all humans act in a similar way

Well, here's an example of the heroic Americans and British you love so much "making progress" :

As of September 22nd 2004, between 12,800 and 14,843 innocent Iraqi civilians have been killed as a result of the US invasion and ensuing occupation, while an estimated 40,000 Iraqis have been injured.

The health effects of the use of depleted uranium weaponry in Iraq are yet to be known. The Pentagon estamites that US and British forces used 1,100 to 2,200 tons made from the toxic and radioactive during the March 2003 bombing campaign. Many scientists blame the far smaller amount of DU weapons used in the Persian Gulf for a sevenfold increase in child birth defects in Basra in Southen Iraq.

Living under occupation without the most basic security has devastated the Iraqi population. A poll conducted by the Iraq centre for research and strategic studies in June 2004 found that 80% of Iraqis believe that coalition forces should leave either immediately or directly after the election. (Which they are still yet to do)

Iraqi joblesness doubled from 30% before the war to 60% in the Summer of 2003. While the Bush administration claims that unemployment has dropped, the US is only employing 120,000 Iraqis of a workforce of 7 million, in reconstruction projects in their own country.

After more than a decade of crippling sanctions, Iraq's health facilities were further damaged during the war and post-invasion looting. Iraq's hospitals continue to suffer from lack of supplys and an overwhelming number of patients.

UNICEF estimates that over 200 schools were destroyed in the conflict, and many more were looted.

Even with Saddam Hussein overthrown, IRAQIS CONTINUE TO FACE HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS FROM OCCUPYING FORCES. In addition to the widely publicised humiliation and torture of prisoners, abuse has been widespread throughout the post 9/11 military operations, with over 300 allegations of abuse in Afghanistan, Iraq and Guantanamo Bay. As of mid-August 2004, ONLY 155 INVESTIGATIONS INTO THE EXISTING 300 HAD BEEN MADE.

The Justice Department memo assuring the White House that torture was legal stands in stark violation of the International Convention Against Torture (of which the US is a signatory). This, combined with the widely publicised mistreatment by Iraqi prisoners by the US military and intellegence officials, gave new license for torture and mistreatments by governments around the world.

I would like to say that i think  all UK forces serving in Iraqi are herocic and extrmeley brave - there doing there best to fight the oppresion of the world to the best of there ability, and i dont happen to belive invading Iraq was a bad move. However nuking whole countrys is basically evil on the level of Hitler and Bin Laden.

I'm not going to argue, they're doing their best, I'm sure they are. But I definitely do think invading Iraq was a VERY bad move. More people have died and suffered since the coalition have been in Iraq than when Saddam was in power.

I would rather terrorists were drawn to Iraq where they could be met by UK and US armed forces than operate in the Western world free to attack innocents. I also believe your wrong about death and suffering under Sadaams regime. Considering you have never experienced what it was like and the ultra secretive nature of Sadaams regime you cant really make any judgment on the levels of suffering.

Why do u think GnRNightrain was so quick to assume it was musilm people?

Jamie, the US and UK are making great progress. Iraqis, keep breathing that depleted uranium! Its what you deserve for shitting on the people who have offered you the taste of freedom. Everyone should thank the US and UK for being the only countries in the world with the balls to deal with this problem.

balls to deal with this problem? they were inferefering in business that disnt concern them. lots of other countries are far worse than a dictator dealing with his people, why attack them? One word: Profit

That whole "flypaper" arguement that Bush used for the last year was proven BS by the London attacks.  Yeah, it'd be nice if all the terrorists were confined to use Iraq as a battlefield; but they are not.  Personally, I'd rather have the 100,000 GI's in Iraq guard the US-Mexico border.  That is where the US is most vulnerable; not in Iraq.

u people make me sick, i wish now that my grandfather and his generation would have had the same mentality as you and kept there noses out of europes buisness because you all would be speaking Ficken Duetch!!!!!

Well the US was attacked by the Japanese and Germany subsequently declared war on the US.  So it wasn't only Europe's business.

Secondly, people have and always will make money off war.  But it is interesting to note Cheney's connections to Halliburton and their multi-billion government contracts.  Clearly there's no conflict of interest there.

Iraqis keep breathing the depleted uranium?! That is officialy the stupidest remark I have ever heard in my life! What are they to do? Not breathe?

I will admit that I have never had to deal with Saddam's regime. But I just presented FACTS that PROVE the quality of life has dropped in Iraq since the invasion. I didn't just make all that up.

exactly. why do you thinkiberton is making a proft right now? Politions are wasy to corrupt when enough money is placed under thier noses.

Tube bombs 'almost simultaneous'


The three bombs on London underground trains "exploded almost simultaneously", say police.
At a press conference, Scotland Yard Deputy Assistant Commissioner Brian Paddick said the attacks took place within 50 seconds of each other.

Technical data from London Underground disproved the earlier wider range of timings between explosions.

The police also warned that the recovery of victims could continue through the night.

There is still no certainty about the number of people whose bodies remain trapped in wrecked train carriages below King's Cross, say the police.

This would be a "slow, methodical, meticulous process" in very difficult circumstances, said Deputy Chief Constable Andy Trotter.

Missing

There have been 49 confirmed fatalities in the bomb attacks on tube trains and a bus - and concerns remain for a further 25 missing people.

The police say that timings show that the explosions took place at 8.50am - and that the synchronisation could suggest that high-explosives used in the attack were triggered using timing devices.

Mr Paddick denied reports that investigators were looking "for any specific individual".

Prime Minister Tony Blair warned that security and surveillance will not be enough to stop such attacks - and that there has to be an ideological struggle in which terrorism is "pulled up by the roots".

Speaking on BBC Radio 4's Today programme, Mr Blair commended the "inner resilience" of Londoners - as the capital's transport system began to return to a close-to-normal service. There are now services running on sections of all lines on the London Underground.

A book of condolence has been opened - which was signed by Prince William in Auckland, New Zealand.

Terrorism experts have been arriving from Spain to support the inquiry in London, bringing expertise from the investigation into the train bomb attacks on Madrid.

A claim for the attacks has been made in the name of Al-Qaeda - by a group calling itself the Abu Hafs al-Masri brigade.

But the BBC's security correspondent Gordon Corera has urged caution over the credibility of the claim.

CCTV trawl

Forensic teams working in Tube tunnels and at the other scenes of the devastating blasts are taking swabs to try to determine the type of explosives used.

The roof of the number 30 bus, which was ripped off in the blast at Tavistock Square, has been removed from the scene for forensic examination.

Police are also involved in one of the UK's biggest searches of CCTV footage to see if there are any clues as to the identity of the bombers.

BBC security correspondent Frank Gardner said there were a number of key questions which investigators were analysing.

"One of the most important is were the bombers home-grown British terrorists or was this a hit team that came in from abroad," he said.

He said one possibility being investigated was that the bomb maker was an expert who came and instructed the bombers.

Another area was to see if they were "linked directly" to what was left of the core of al-Qaeda in Afghanistan and Pakistan or acting alone.

"The professionalism of it tends to indicate that this was something probably connected to people higher up the chain of command," he said.

Search for missing

Anxious family and friends are continuing their search for loved ones who have not been heard from since the bombings.

The emergency call centre in London has taken more than 100,000 calls from the public.

Relatives and friends have been contacting the hospitals where the many casualties were admitted, as well as taking photos and posters to the four blast sites.

Scotland Yard confirmed seven people died in the Liverpool Street explosion, another seven at Edgware Road, a further 13 in the Tavistock Square bus blast and at least 21 at the King's Cross blast. A 49th person died in hospital later.

Some 700 people were hurt, about 69 are being treated in hospital and 15 remain in a critical condition.

http://news.bbc.co.uk



/jarmo

It cracks me up so much when people say "We are fighting the war for oil"

Listen, the United States is not the only country who uses oil therefore it would be impossible for the US to attack a country to control its oil.

The UN and every other country would not allow that.

Cheney and Bush are oil men, Bush also owned a major league baseball team, so what?

most politicians are rich in a lot of different ways.

If Bush never gets another paycheck he has money for generations and generations of families.

what still makes me laugh at some of you is the fact the democrats voted to go to war with Iraq as well.

Does that mean they want the oil also?

are there no Democractic oil people?

Please, u can criticize Bush,The US whatever your heart desires but stop it with the idiotic bullshit about fighting to control their oil cause that just isnt possible.

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2005/07/09/bomb-birmingham-050709.html



Warning sparks mass evacuation in Birmingham
Last Updated Sat, 09 Jul 2005 18:46:34 EDT
CBC News

British authorities cleared as many as 20,000 people out of downtown Birmingham, after being warned of a possible threat two days after bombs ripped through the heart of London.

    * FROM JULY 9, 2005: London attacks closely co-ordinated: police
http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/2005/07/09/london-bombs050709.html


A security alert led police to move people away from this memorial for bombing victims outside Kings Cross Station in London on Saturday. (AP Photo)

The evacuation in England's second-largest city, which lies 175 kilometres northwest of the capital, was by far the largest of a number of security scares on Saturday.

Hundreds of bars and clubs in the city's entertainment district were emptied and police blocked off roads into the city's core.

The police confirmed that they had asked people to leave the downtown and head home after receiving intelligence of a possible attack at about 8:15 p.m. local time.

    * INDEPTH: London bombings

By about 11 p.m. local time, police had yet to give any more details about the nature of the threat.

However, the British Broadcasting Corp. said there were reports that police were conducting controlled explosions in the area.

The network also cited reports that a suspicious package had been found on a bus.

A number of other security scares occurred in the country on Saturday, including several major alerts near the bomb sites in London.

Outside the King's Cross station, people had set flowers against a wall as a makeshift memorial to the more than 20 people who died in a nearby tunnel.

Police moved people back from a makeshift memorial of flowers against a wall after being warned that a suspicious package had been spotted.

In another scare, a train station in Ashford in southern England was shut down temporarily, delaying service between London and Paris.

Some really ugly views expressed in this topic. The suggestion that the answer to terrorism is to kill and eliminate civilians is outlandish, shocking and rather scary. I'm sure there are plenty out there who agree with this brand of Nazism.

The London bombings are a tradgedy, it is time to address the roots of terrorism so we can prevent further innocents being slaughtered.

somethign that I have advocated on many occasion.... the only path to victory..... is thourgh taking away the root structure of terroism........ I think you were in the cost sof the Iraq war thread...... would make a biggggggggggggggggggggg mark on global social/political problems.....

Rumsfeld, Bush and Blair  told us that we were in Iraq so that we wouldn't have to fight the terrorists on the streets of London or New York.

 Apparently these guys didn't get the memo.

They wouldn't, your right.

That is why we ignored them, and dismiss them today.

Dude, we already won the war, didn't ya know?


(http://tinypic.com/71h2k0.jpg)

its funny how the word accomplished is actually over his head  :hihi:

hmmmm man in mirandings......




The link can be found in the terriosm thread.
   

If you want to read about the attack on London, The Guardian has a special section for it at http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/




/jarmo

Launch Radio Networks reports: In the wake of the terror bombings in London last week, QUEEN guitarist Brian May says more work should be done to understand why people do this kind of thing. Writing on his official BrianMay.com web site, May says, "I sense there is a mood of quiet resolve among the people I speak to. We are feeling that we must not go any further down the road of escalation...this is old stuff, but I personally feel that in the wake of 9/11 an opportunity was missed...to seek understanding rather than revenge. The Nelson Mandela way. I do not subscribe to this 'War on Terrorism' slogan. I believe we have a need to secure a peaceful world for our children, and that it cannot be done by exerting our muscle internationally. It sure hasn't worked yet, has it?! It must be done by adjusting OUR behavior ? we must stop playing 'Cowboys & Indians' - a self-damning phrase if ever there was one. I no longer believe we are the good guys. We must earn this view of ourselves, and start recognizing that there are other legitimate views of the world than ours."

May added, "So where do we go from here? Search everyone before they go on a bus? On a tube train? Walking down the street? This is the road to insanity...a climate of fear, which, sadly, the U.S.A. is already experiencing. It's time we attacked the cause rather than the symptoms. I want to see our politicians answer the question 'WHY?' WHY do people hate us this much? What can we do to change this? It's no use thinking we are dealing with a small bunch of maniacs, as seems to be the popular view, who need to be 'stamped out.' The reality is we are looking at a large number of entire countries of people to whom the American (and English) flag is a symbol of evil. Of selfishness and bullying imperialist aggression. THIS is what we must address. This is what we owe it to our children to do. In my opinion."

The bombings in London forced QUEEN + PAUL RODGERS to postpone their show in Hyde Park from a week, from this past Friday (July 8) to the coming Friday (July 15).

Sky News is reporting all four bombers died in the London attack.? Also, several raids and arrests have been made in Leeds.

http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-13385127,00.html

ALL FOUR BOMBERS DIED
 
All four suspected bombers died during the London terror attacks, according to police sources.

Sky News crime correspondent Martin Brunt said three bombers died in separate Tube attacks and one was killed in the No 30 bus blast.

Detectives believe all four were British citizens, Brunt said.

It was still not clear if the attackers were all suicide bombers.

This follows witness reports of a man on the bus in an agitated state constantly looking into his bag before the blast in Tavistock Square.

Brunt said police had made a number of arrests in Leeds today in relation to last Thursday's bombings.

They were also poised to make arrests in London, he said.

The news comes as armed police search a house in Leeds after the Army used a controlled explosion to get in.

Hundreds of people had already been evacuated from the area around Hyde Park Road, Burley.

No one was in the house at the time but armed officers had been used as a precaution.

Five other homes in Leeds had earlier been raided by police hunting the terrorists behind last week's attacks.?

Neighbours at one of the addresses said a 22-year-old man who lived there with his family had gone missing.

Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir Ian Blair said the raids were "directly connected" to Thursday's atrocity.

Hours later, police evacuated Luton railway station and car park to recover a vehicle suspected of being linked with the terrorist attacks.
 

great letter.
we tend to forget that THEY also have reasons.
that they also are fighting us.
we see al-quaida evil.
THEY see our governments as evil.

and yes, WE, rich countries, have killed WAY more civilians in than terrorism will ever kill.
i'm sorry.
we're not the only one suffering.

jameslofton is proof that people are just plain dumb. and that it will never stops.

This is what I have been saying since 9-11.

We have to understand WHY this is happening and deal with it that way.

If you continue to say "They hate us for our way of life" and accept no role what led up to their actions, then you are keeping your head in the sand.

Of course this requires tough questions and a government to be accoutable for their actions. The answers are too tough a pill to swallow I'm afraid.

what IS the reason this is happening?

and if there is a reasonable explanation, why doesn't al qaeda just make it's case? 

and why doesn't bin laden just come out and make his case?

He has made his case several times.

He wants us to get the hell out of the gulf and stop meddling in muslim affairs.

Stop funding bombs, bullets, and billions of dollars to Israel that kill their Muslim kids. Our support of Israel is the biggie.

It's no secret why they hate us. The Fox news guys (and their ilk) will have you believe otherwise.

so are these bombs revenge? or are they an attempt to get nations to cooperate?

and do you think we should just stop supporting israel? and what would the implications be?

Our goverment is viewed as terrorists, well before 9-11 by Muslims.


Should we stop supporting Israel? I think the millions upon millions we give them for military might (used against the Muslims) and our weapons, should stop, yes.

Our involvement in the first gulf war made Osama (once a friend of the USA) our enemy. Bush I understood that marching troops into Bahgdad would be seen as imperialistic in the Muslim world and he did not go in for that reason. Bush II doesn't seem to have this perspective. I have said before "Stick in the hornets nest" and I think that is exactly what happened.

We are in it now I'm afraid. An honest look at our international miltary actions are probably too late. Best to keep lying to ourselves at this point. Hold on for a lifetime of Jihad bombings/attacks.

i think you try to simplify things. when in fact, the issues at hand are much more complicated.

and i believe that even if the US complied with EVERYTHING the muslim world wanted, there would still be attacks on free societies. their hatred is deep rooted in hundreds of years of muslim vs. christianity issues. bin laden even calls the entire world "crusaders".

I think you are an ignorant person. What the hell Israel has to do with what hapenned in London? leave this country alone. It's been 30 years Israel has had to deal with terrorism, they probably have the best intelligence secret service in the world (mossad), they can be very helpfull for the anti-terrorism. They are specialists of that.
besides, Israel is one of the most developped high technology country in the world, they construct their own weapon to protect themselves. You speack about something you don't know. Israel is victim of terrorism and you return the subject as if they were suddenly responsibles. It's like threating a raped woman of bitch and saying she is responsible if she was rapped.

Pervert.

Its thanks to Israel we have suicide bombers, its thanks to Israel having nukes that countries around Israel want WMDs, but the most ironic thing is that when the british had control of what is now Israel, the zionists used a bombing campaign against the british embassy's to remove them.

All he did was bring up that by support Isreal, the US has caused many moslems to rally against them because of the billions of dollars being poured into killing moslems.

I also think the US should stop supporting Isreal and let them deal with thier problem as they know best. The reason that the US is helping Isreal so much is because the Jews have power, they can convince anybody to see thier way of things. The US shouldn't meddle in others' affairs.

Moslem people have a hatred towards the US because moselms have been pushed around by them a lot. They just want thier own way of life without outside interference.

Well duh!

I wrote two sentences. I thought you could understand that it was not that simple. It is a complex issue, but I have discussed (posted) this many times in the past and do not feel like typing it all over again.

I also made myself pretty clear. We have stirred the pot and the "war" on terror will be as successful as the "war" on drugs is here. In other words, be prepared to see this for the rest of your life.

Actually a good analogy to drug use: we should look at why it happens instead of how to "cure" it.

Brian May is on the money.

Your point of vue is wrong: it seems for you Israel = kill the moeslims, that's the way you think. Have you ever gone to Israel? I know this country better than you.
Once again, it's not in the jewish culture and History to kill people. Once you'll understand Israel has to deal with an incredible amonts of terrorists, maybe you'll understand what's going on there.
Besides, Israel helps a lot the USA, the GI's were trained by the Israeli army concerning how to fight terrorism, because terrorism is something new for the US. They don't know how to do, so they ask help to Israel for that. The Isralians are also very precious in the Sillicone Valley, they represent over 20% of engineers there.
So it's not in a one sense help. USA gives money, Israel gives intelligence.

big price tag on that then.......lol considering teh "20%" i though was 6%.... big jump since the bubble crash..... lol


ok to over extend..... how many tiems have the "road map to peace" been agreed on by Isreal? then they turn around and go agnist what they agreed to... iwthin days....... and dont say its because of sucide bombers.... mostly the retaliantions by them has been due to direct violations or precived violations of isreal to the agreed up on terms....... what is it.. east jeuslam where teh PLA wants to set up the capital?..... and isreal has now increased the amount of settelrs going ton the area and have almost surrounded it....

"These are detestable murderers and scumbags,"_____ said. "They detest our freedoms, they detest our society, they detest our liberties."

 bet you cant guess who said this about London attacks

Israel will never sacrify its own security. What country wouldn't do the same?
You can make peace between civilized people. But it's much more harder between a civilized and developped country, and non civilized people.

this is a relevant question at this time..... where are yo from and how do you have such a inate knowledge of Isreal.... family friends lots of visits because of..... are jewish...... this is stuff that should be shared for this to go any farther....... ill gladly share my vitals for this... if want em

LOL, uh...ok.

I don't think you understand what I was talking about. Maybe my 'ignorance' confused you.

Re-read the post, rinse, then re-read again if needed.

Thanks.

London bomb net widens

? Leeds biochemist questioned in Egypt
? Four held in Pakistan over 'bomb links'
? 19-year-old may have been ringleader

Duncan Campbell and Richard Norton-Taylor
Saturday July 16, 2005
The Guardian

The investigation into the London bombings went global yesterday with the arrest in Egypt of a biochemist from Leeds University, further arrests in Pakistan, and inquiries by police in the United States into the background of one of the suspects.
The hunt continued as the commissioner of the Metropolitan police warned that more attacks were a "very strong possibility".

British anti-terrorist officers were due in Cairo today to interview an Egyptian, Magdi el-Nashar, 33, of Leeds University's school of biochemistry and microbiology, as his home in Leeds was searched. Mr el-Nashar has denied any connection with the bombings and said that he has been on holiday in Egypt and fully intends to return to England.



"[Mr] el-Nashar denied having any relation with the latest events in London," a spokesman for the Egyptian interior ministry said. "He pointed out that all his belongings remained in his apartment in Britain."
Senior counter-terrorism officials emphasised last night that there was no hard evidence that other individuals, apart from the four suicide bombers, were involved in or had prior knowledge of the attacks.

Last night, however, police in the eastern Pakistani city of Faisalabad said four suspects had been detained in connection with the bombings. Intelligence sources in Pakistan have previously indicated that one of the bombers, Shehzad Tanweer, met a member of a group linked to al-Qaida during a visit to the country.

In Leeds, a three-storey redbrick house where Mr el-Nashar lived, at St Johns Terrace in the Hyde Park area, was searched by police forsensic teams yesterday.

Mr el-Nashar recently completed five years of studies and returned to Egypt about four weeks ago. A friend, Will Voller, a 23-year-old nurse who prayed at the same mosque as the biochemist, said: "He is a good, friendly, hospitable man. I can't believe that he is mixed up in this. He was very active at the mosque, helping with things like open days for local schoolchildren."

Mr el-Nashar was awarded his PhD in May, after being sponsored by an organisation in Cairo called the National Research Centre to study biochemical techniques for use in food and environmental science. Before arriving in Leeds he studied in North Carolina, and is understood to have recently applied for an academic post in Dublin.

In Beeston yesterday, six computer hard drives were removed by forensic officers from the Hamara youth access point in Lodge Lane, which the suicide bomber Mohammad Sidique Khan is believed to have used as a recruitment centre. Elsewhere in Beeston, police sealed off the Iqra Learning Centre, an Islamic bookshop frequented by the Khan, Shehzad Tanweer and Hasib Hussain.

Sir Ian Blair, the commissioner of the Metropolitan police, yesterday described the suicide bombers as "foot soldiers" and suggested a link would be found between them and al-Qaida.

Asked about suggestions that a man on a terrorist "watch list" had been in Britain before the bombings and had since left, Sir Ian said on the BBC's Today programme that "nothing at the moment ... links him directly, but what we expect to find at some stage is that there is a clear al-Qaida link ... because the four men who are dead, who we believe are the bombers, are in the category of foot soldiers".

Counter-terrorism officials said that it was still far from clear that there was any direct connection between the bombings and the al-Qaida network. This was despite remarks by Sir Ian that the attacks bore "all the hallmarks" of al-Qaida, a suggestion which appeared to be given added credence by confirmation of the nature of the bombs.

They were made from acetone peroxide, also known as Mother of Satan because of its instability, and which can be made from common household items and then packed with plastic explosive. A similar mixture, triacetone triperoxide (TATP), was used in an attempt by Richard Reid, the British-born shoe bomber, to blow up an airliner in 2001.

Police have still not confirmed the name of the fourth bomber as Jermaine Lindsay or Lindsay Jamal, 19, and different versions of his name were still being offered yesterday. He is understood to have used various names and also to have changed it when he converted to Islam. It is believed that he was known to the police in the United States, and also that Richard Reid is being interviewed in jail there about his possible connections to the bombers. In Pakistan, security forces were reported to be investigating possible links between militant groups and Tanweer. Two groups named were Jaish-e-Mohammad (Army of Mohammad), which has links to al-Qaida, and Lashkar-e-Taiba, a banned Sunni group which ran a radical school which Tanweer may have attended.

One Pakistani intelligence source was reported as saying Tanweer visited Pakistan in 2003 and 2004. During the first visit, the source said, Tanweer met Osama Nazir, who was arrested last December for the 2002 bombing of a church in Islamabad that killed two Americans among others.

British counter-terrorist officials said last night there were "links" between the London suicide bombers and Pakistan but declined to elaborate. They added that the investigation was fast-moving and "changing by the hour".

It also emerged yesterday that one of the bombers, Khan, was last year given a tour of parliament as the guest of an MP.

The Labour party said Khan, who was responsible for the Edgware Road tube blast, met Labour's Jon Trickett, MP for Hemsworth in West Yorkshire. The trip was organised as part of a school visit and Khan attended in his capacity as a learning mentor at Hillside primary school with the MP's wife, Sarah, the headteacher of the school.




/jarmo

a 19 year old ring leader? thats pretty shocking, the dude must be genious. 

lol


yes he must..... ::)

I didn't have a chance to check that topic before.

R.I.P to all the people who died in those attacks... :( Hopefully we won't have more attacks anytime soon...

so the Mother of Satan is not stable ? who's the mother of satan , mary ?

and will, i fear we will get more attacks, not soon, but someday. cause now some *country* is gonna get revenge. and then the other one, and the other one ...

i kinda agree with what SLCpunk says most of the time.
they don't hate us because of what we are.
they hate us because we are what we are and we want to be everywhere.


also i want to remind that more than 60 people died in iraq in the past few days. 60.
terrorist attacks too.

Three cities, four killers

Leeds, Lahore and London: one was home to Britain's first suicide bombers; another introduced them to radical Islam; the third was the target of their murderous hatred. Between them lies the key to an atrocity

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,1530265,00.html



/jarmo

im still waiting.....

LONDON (AP) - Three London Underground stations were evacuated at midday Thursday following reports of incidents, British Transport Police said. The Fire Brigade was investigating a report of smoke at one station.

The Warren Street, Shepherds Bush and Oval stations were evacuated. Emergency services personnel were called to the stations, police said.

"People were panicking. But very fortunately the train was only 15 seconds from the station," witness Ivan McCracken told Sky news.

McCracken said he smelled smoke, and people were panicking and coming into his carriage.

Services on the Victoria and Northern lines were suspended following reports of a number of incidents, London Underground said.

The reports came two weeks after four suicide bombers attacked three subway stations and a double-decker bus, killing 52 others.

They have closed down the Northern and Victoria lines - no one in London is going to be moving very far today.

Thankfully though nobody has been reported injured, word has it of a nail bomb going off on one carriage, also it's been mentioned that windows were blown out on a bus, from what's been said the devices either weren't that powerful or they did not go off properly, also reports say after one incident a man was seen running away from the scene (e.g. the suspect) doesn't sound like a suicide bomber.

Europe has just entered in the kamikaze/Djihad erea. London accepted djihad preachers for years, without doing nothing, now they pay for their mistakes. It's already too late. They are inside.

it's not temporary, it will last, because it's a war.

so i guess they have their reasons ....
we know they're crazy and stupid. but they have their reasons. they don't hate westren countries for the fun of it.
the hate western countries cause they had been invaded and used for years.

i think your pro-israel mind is blinding you.

one question: do you think kamikaz have reasons to do that or they're just crazy ? what are their reasons ?

their reasons? they are brainwashed people who were recruited by Al Quaida (could be hamas or GIA etc...) terrorist organization.? That's not more complicated than that in fact. they were recruited and they were told to kill "for the Djihad". And they did it. Like robots. Brainwashed people. That's how work terrorist organizations. Once they catch you, you slowly become a robot. There are no reasons. They are "in" for the Djihad. It's a comun ideology. Like a brand.
and please don't bring Israel into that thing. it has nothing to do here, exept that both Europe, Israel and America have to face to the same terrorist atacks situation, and to the same ideology. The only difference is that it's something new in Europe. It arrived later here. I also expect the djihad to appear in China/Asia within the next 10/15 years. I also think I have MUCH more knowleges than you to speack about that, and i know you know it.
 
Thanks for your comprehension, but I don't think you have enough knowledges speaking about that with me.: ok:

less knowledge if you want.
but more distance. cause i am no muslim, no jew, no christian. i have no familiy in israel, no family in palestine. nothing. i am completly free of subjectivity.

i wasnt asking for reasons of the suicide bombers, i meant the big, overall reasons. the djihad if you want.  in the absolute. why are these attacks happening ?
why are terrorists bombing ? even in history.
why are the Rebels in Star Wars bombing the Empire's facilities. they have reasons. they fight.
that's it. i dont day they're the good ones.

but we have to stop thinking we are so white and pure.
we did harm these people. maybe not bin laden specifically. but we did harm people he pretends he fights for.

america, europe, israel (if you want, even if it's merely a tool in the us hands... ) ... are not clean.

do you understand that more civilians has been killed during iraq "war" than by the bombing in madrid, london ...

i just want you, and us, to admit taht we are not as clean and pure as we think.

this is a fair war.
some are fighting with jets and tanks. some with terror. what is better ?

Pick a dictionnary and search fo the word "nehilism", or "nihillisme" in french, and you'll understand a little bit more what we have to face to.

i believe it's nihilism .... not sure tho .... :)

yes it's nihilism in english.
here is an interesting book http://www.amazon.fr/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/books/2710327619/reviews/ref=cm_rev_more_2/402-7409325-2447334
The book title is enough to understand, I translate "Your death will be God".

but you didnt answer my question. i want you to answer with your words, not with some amazon links.
do you admit that israel, europe, usa are not pure and clean.

that there is no pure evil (al quaida) and pure goodness (us).
they are fighting like they can. they have their reasons. what they do is horrible.
but do you see the evil in our (europe, usa, israel if you want) actions ?

what about civilian killed by bombings ? do you put it on the same level ? or londonians worth more in your eyes ?

When civilians are killed? that's bad.

BUT

There is something you don't understand in these conflicts: When developped countries use force, their goal is not to kill civilians, it's not "ok, let's bomb that school there are 50 children, let's kill them all", no,? their goal is not to murder the population, it's to pick-up terrorists, to catch them and/or to kill them. It's a different perspective. I make a difference between killing civilians people (you, me, the man in the street) and killing terrorists who bring chaos. You don't do it. I do.
The war against terrorism is not a war against civilians, it's a war to prevent other terrorist attacks. It's to kill terrorists before they kill more people. It's to stop the chaos.

You like computers don't you? when you have a virus in your computer, do you let it destroy your hard-disk? I doubt it.

that's it.

My thoughts are with London again.

ok... so how come you push Isreal as being the best damned place on earth............? Isreal has killed many Civ's over the years..... all in the quest agnist terroism


correct?

"Fair"? How's that fair? Because the US and the coalition bomb people in Iraq and because Israel is fighting with Palestine, terrorists have the right to kill civilians in Europe? How fucked up is that? There is no freakin excuse for terrorism. Some people on the board are way too hardcore (like let's nuke them and stuff) but finding excuses to terrorists is seriously fucked up too, IMHO. Even if those sons of bitches have reasons, they're fucked up reasons. There's no excuse to kill civilians. And as far as I know, this is not Iraqi civilians exploding themselves in European subways or American buildings. There is no excuse.

It's true that rich countries sometimes (often?) do fucked up things, but this is not a good excuse to kill civilians who have nothing to do with what their government chose to do (UK, Spain).

Anyway, I'm relieved the worst has been avoided today in London. My heart goes to the people who live over there! :)

true will alot of us here do have fucked ideas as to what this is all about. No doubt this does not make sence, nor should it. Some of us do look at it as a purely academic exercise and can pick out flaws in tactics on both sides.

however the war is fair if you look at it from teh US stand point....... "they attacked us....... now we will route them out where ever they are, so long as you dont have existing nukes." then yes this war is fair. however from the other side it is so not fair, jeaously of what the West has, the turmoil and subtrofuge that occurs in most of these countries is a boiling pot that allows recruits to be easily found. The protest through violence is not somethign alien to any countrry. Even Canada there was a state of matrila law declared during the late 70's early 80's..... cant rememebr teh year off hand..... but it was when violence was a high possibility of the quebeckers that wanted out of canada at all cost. the IRA in the UK.... the Black Panters in the US, hell teh LA riots....

was it jsut for teh civialins that were opressed? no... did it help out in the long wrong in furthereing the cause.... in soome case yes.... in canada not so much it was more of a set back then anything.


now If you were anti westren values, and the west was blowing up countries with like values to you self, and you as an individual has the resolve to break the back of supporting nations, which can be accomplished through confrontation on the home front, then so be it... you have no hope of combat on the open feild, attack on each countries home soil will continue to show to the population that the war is not working and we are still getting hurt... so maybe we should jsut stop...... However there are countries whose involvement are very limited such as canada, that if a major attack occured on canadian soil, the populations resolve would be such that we would join in the war with total viggor, and we would not stop till we won.

the thing is with asymetric warfare and the terror tactics being used, is this.... it will continue so long as bombs are dropping in the middle east. However it wont stop if we fully pulled out within a week it still would happen. the only way to stop it would be to narrow teh gap that seperates the values of both cultures, and tear down teh walls so that we can see that we are teh same, and we want the same thing, peace and equality for everone...... the equality will be the hardest to attain. narowing the gap can be easily done by helping countries that are in dire need of aid to make sure they get everything that they need... and dont leave till they have it......

Believe me, I hear ya. And I would actually understand if people hurt by wars (Iraqi civilians, Afghanis, etc.) were to explode themselves in Western countries, even if it's not the "best" solution.

But this is not the case. The people who're doing that are doing it in the name of their god. They're becoming a monster, to fight the monster. Except their god never told them to kill civilians because they feel mistreated and are jealous of the West (which I can fully understand). Islam has got nothing to do with suicide bombers. They interpret the Coran as they wish and use religion as a background for their fucked up actions.

Hell, millions of people are dying every freaking year in Africa because of AIDS, curable diseases, malnutrition, but you don't see Africans blowing themselves up in Western cities because they feel left out. I do agree with the main point of your post, which is basically that we should help people/ countries in need a lot more than what we do right now. This is probably the only humane solution, unfortunately it's not that simple and the people who rule our countries don't make that necessarily a priority...it becomes a vicious circle.

I have nothing more to add, Will completed my though perfectly. And as he said, the kamikazes had nothing to do with Irak, don't forget they were english. That totally confirms what I said: the Jihad is like a comun international terrorist value. There are different terrorist movements, but they have all exactly the same comun goal . And yes, that's a war. Not a war like it used to be ( country VS country) , but a more desorganized war, more complexe, more "mobile" (is it the right word in english?).

Those kamikazes aren't that desperated, it's BS, some of them are hight engineers, doctors, they own cellphone business, I mean, bin-Laden is far from beeing a stupid guy. He is bilionary, he made business, all the 9/11 kamikazes studied in Americans and germans University, they were far from beeing non-intelligent people. It's just they are completely crazy. Their volunty is to kill. Once again, there is one word for that: Nihilism.

their god is just an escuse.
it could be anything.
could be political, economical, religious ... their god is an escuse to fight.
yes i can see how most of these kamikaze are used. lured into the "religious fight".
but i really doubt that's much more than an escuse.

people fight for reasons. they found an easy one. god.

imagine the western countries never invaded or did anything to the middle east. imagine a world were we never tried to go take the oil.
would they fight us in the name of their god ? no.
their god is not the trigger to their war. it's the escuse. thats where nesquick is wrong.

the jihad is not the trigger. it's the escuse. the cover.

so it would be ok for you if these people went to war normally with tanks and jet fighters and futuristic weapons .?
oh wait. they don't have that....

they sure are evil. but until we realize we are evil too (in our way) it will never work.

What are you talking about? have you read what I wrote? do you think those kamikazes were/are "poor" people? most of them are high educated persons and are very rich. The terrorism money making is like billion and billion dollars in the world. Terrorism is made by? a bunch of guys who want the power and who want to rule the world, like staline, like Hitler, what they want is to achieve their madness and control the world. They don't give a shit about the social problems, what they want is the jihad to rule the world. They just want the power.

1 the hitler reference has been unleashed.
2 so only poor people can fight ?

3 you're still babbling on them. we know they suck. i wanna hear you say " america, europe, israel.. they're evil too "
tahts what i want. until then you're blind.

Would it mean, for you, that every country hit by terrorism are "evil too"? would it mean they deserve those terrorist attacks because according to you, they are "evil too"? So, ladies and gentleman, if your contry is hit by terrorism, in fact it's your fault!

Whatever, you know what? you are illogical in your head. I don't see any logic and rational reflexion in what you say.

Do you consider bali, Egypt, indonesia and all other countries hit by terrorism over these last years that we didn't mention early as "evil too"? Aren't you enough clever to realize you can be a target for terrorism attacks without doing anything special but just because your way of life and your values are not like what these terrorists want them to be?

You bring the responsability notion out there. As if those who have to face to terrorist attacks must be responsibles of something if they are attacked.

is a girl responsible of something when she is raped? Where is the logic?

Do you try to justify/minimize terrorist attacks as you seemed in another forum to justify/minimize the Shoah?

Religious is an excuse for sure. But are you saying they would be fighting no matter what? Because they're poor and envy the West, right?

If that's the issue, then could you answer that question: millions of people are dying every year in Africa because of AIDS, curable diseases, malnutrition; why don't we see Africans blowing themselves up in Western cities because they feel left out? Aren't they as poor as the terrorists? And that's millions dying every year. Again, no excuse for terrorism.



The cover for what? Because they're actually good people? Gimme a break, they're fanatics. They're totally insane. I know we do have fanatics in Western countries, and some of them rule countries, but it's still not an excuse to kill innocent British and Spanish people for instance.

And we are evil for sure, our governments have done LOTS of wrong things/ taken LOTS of wrong decisions. Don't forget another thing: Western countries do have their share of poor people. Lots of people in America and Europe are living with less than $1 a day. Poor and left out people aren't just in the Middle East. Poverty is everywhere, some people use poverty with distorted religious views to create terrorism. Those people are dangerous. And I'm not saying I like the fact Bush has got to invoke God every freakin time he makes a speech on TV.

Lots of people in Western are crazy for sure, some of them are insane, some of them are fanatics, the Oklahoma City bombing was done by an American citizen, and it was a few years before 9/11. I still don't find any excuse for terrorists.

yeah america is a little girl being raped. great metaphore.
im minimizing the purity of our western countries.

i see what you're saying will;

i think that religion is just a way to use stupid peopple to get what they want. they want to fight. they use religion as tool to control and creates their weapons: terrorism.

the thing we don't get is that, depending on teh side you're on, terrorism / guerrila can look like the weapon of hope and freedom (david fighting goliath), or the weapon of the evil crazies.

taht's it.
terrorism is a horrible thing. but it's just then answer to the horrible thing we did. that's it.

my whole point is that we're not pure and clean. and a lot of people dont want to aknowledge that.

so what you say is that when you are hit by terrorism, you are responsible right?

did i say that ? no.

btu hey, you might be onto something ... when a dog bites you, is it just for fun or did you provoke him ?
same thing. these terrorist are like dogs, they're stupid and violent. but they do things for a reason.

Wrong comparison... :)
Did you hear about pitbulls biting or actually killing new born babies? I doubt the babies provoked them. A person I know actually had to interfere once between a pitbull and a 5 year old who was just walking home. Some dogs attack for no reason, so it doesn't serve your point of view.

gREAT compareason.
just like nesquick pointed out the " little girl getting raped" ... so the western countries are little babies ?
uhuh ? ;D

I'm not saying that! ;) I was just saying your comparison was not really accurrate... ;D In many ways, America is actually a baby or more a teenager compared to Europe. ;)

Anyway, we're getting carried away. Let's stick to the topic, which is terrorist alerts in London.

Prime Minister Howard:


"Can I just say very directly, Paul, on the issue of the policies of my government and indeed the policies of the British and American governments on Iraq, that the first point of reference is that once a country allows its foreign policy to be determined by terrorism, it's given the game away, to use the vernacular. And no Australian government that I lead will ever have policies determined by terrorism or terrorist threats, and no self-respecting government of any political stripe in Australia would allow that to happen.

Can I remind you that the murder of 88 Australians in Bali took place before the operation in Iraq.

And I remind you that the 11th of September occurred before the operation in Iraq.

Can I also remind you that the very first occasion that bin Laden specifically referred to Australia was in the context of Australia's involvement in liberating the people of East Timor. Are people by implication suggesting we shouldn't have done that?

When a group claimed responsibility on the website for the attacks on the 7th of July, they talked about British policy not just in Iraq, but in Afghanistan. Are people suggesting we shouldn't be in Afghanistan?

When Sergio de Mello was murdered in Iraq -- a brave man, a distinguished international diplomat, a person immensely respected for his work in the United Nations -- when al Qaeda gloated about that, they referred specifically to the role that de Mello had carried out in East Timor because he was the United Nations administrator in East Timor.

Now I don't know the mind of the terrorists. By definition, you can't put yourself in the mind of a successful suicide bomber. I can only look at objective facts, and the objective facts are as I've cited. The objective evidence is that Australia was a terrorist target long before the operation in Iraq. And indeed, all the evidence, as distinct from the suppositions, suggests to me that this is about hatred of a way of life, this is about the perverted use of principles of the great world religion that, at its root, preaches peace and cooperation. And I think we lose sight of the challenge we have if we allow ourselves to see these attacks in the context of particular circumstances rather than the abuse through a perverted ideology of people and their murder."

new alert in London, Friday 22nd 2005

a suicide-bomber was shot a couple of minutes ago http://uk.news.yahoo.com/050722/140/fnxi9.html

Police Shoot Suspected Suicide Bomber
Police have shot a suspected suicide bomber at a tube station in south London.Reports are also coming in that a mosque in the east of the capital has been surrounded by armed officers and residents told to stay indoors.In the first incident, marksmen opened fire near Stockwell Tube station as passengers were evacuated. It is thought the man was killed.

Alarmed onlookers said they saw up to 10 plain-clothed officers chasing a man before opening fire.

Reports said the suspect was pushed to the ground and shot five times at close range.

Passenger Briony Coetsee said: "We were on the tube and then we suddenly heard someone say 'get out, get out' and then we heard gunshots."

Air and road ambulance crews have been sent to the scene and unconfirmed reports suggest the man was involved in Thursday's assault on the capital.

If the suspect is confirmed to be a suicide bomber, it would mark the fifth attempted terrorist attack on London in less than a day.

A Scotland Yard spokesman said: "We can confirm that just after 10am armed officers shot a male at Stockwell underground station."

The man is thought to have been either stepping on to the train or was on the platform.

Sky News Crime Correspondent Martin Brunt said: "The officer or officers involved in this clearly felt this suspect was about to detonate a bomb."

Police have been given orders to shoot to kill if they believe someone is about to detonate a bomb.

Tube services on the Victoria and Northern Lines were suspended at the request of police.

I'm sorry for the Londonians (sp.?) who have to go to work every day and fear those fuckers... :(

asymtrical warfare................l....... christ.............


you still have not answered my question and rather dance around answering it. "WHAT IS YOUR ISREAL AFFILATION???????????"


oh and so you understand something about relgious affilations and upbringins..... i dont have to be from rome to be a roman catholic....... nor have its ideals..... or do i?




oh btw they never paid for themseleves to study at these "colleges" it was footed by Al Quidea itself.... aka uncle Bin's money.



hmm lets break down jihad shall we....

"A Muslim holy war or spiritual struggle against infidels".

for the "jihad" to rule the world would be for teh jihad to be turned into a political/relgion of its own right. For it to rule teh world it would have to manage a forcd beleif reversial for all those including moderate and liberal muslims...... ya can we say not going to happen in our life time.....

highly educated does not have any bearing about being rich or poor....... not sure where you come from but in all societies there are rather highly skilled/educated persons that are very poor. these "rich" people that you speak of..... were funded b the home cell to get the education. the ones that are on the front lines are not the educate's the educated are teh ones that sit and pull strings.....


and it only took this long to get to Hitler.... hes nothing like hitler. Its insuling to Uncle Laden......lol..... look Hitler had the power of a coutry behind him, laden does not (that power being the infastruture to be able to produce hardware..) laden is all about IED

make a research. I'm fed up to repeat 10 times the same things.

because you're wrong.
no, not wrong.

but you wont move away from your "pure" opinion.
do you see evil in what israel can do ?
do you see evil in what the US has done to middle east in HISTORY (history does not start on 9/11) ?

or for you, is it just pure evil against pure goodness ?

i think my 'dog' metaphore was very good. and the way you brougt up the little girl / baby compareason just made even stronger. cause the Us and europe are not little babies or little girls getting bitten. they triggered something.
oh yes, the dog must be beaten because he bite the holy human being, but he did it as a RE ACTION. and you fail to see that.

Nothing can justify to kill people in suicide bombings attacks.
If you think so, let's imagine a member of your family die in a terrorist attack someday, then the following day I will tell you "your member of your familly triggered it", let's see how you're going to react...

What's weird with you is that you absolutely need to justify terrorist attacks, as if they were normals. For me it's not normal and those attacks can't be justified.



 

Again..... you have not answered a direct question! stop tring to side step it and answer the question!

another thing, they can be justified, you know why because if you put yourself in their shoes and live the life of that person their is a possibility that you will do the same thing. You may not howver it is a possibility.


im guessing you dont watch star trek..... so ill make it simple.... Picard was faced with his clone, they grew up in differet ways seperated from eachother.... they still thought of things in the  same manner, though because of the experiences that the clone had had in his life he was taking the violent path to further his cause. where Picard is the great moraly driven captain that sees violence as a last resort. However for teh clone he was already at the last resort.


can you at least see what we are saying, everyone no matter who they are has a capicity fr evil and based on their life experiences will determine how they will adapt to new changes or problems. Some one who commits or attempts suicide was not born already set in motion that he/she was going to do it. If you took them out of te situational pressures that has shaped thier life then the chance of them actualy doing it reduces closer to nill.

i will go PLA vs Isreal now.....

cant neogiate with isreal... no matter what they agree too they end up doing something colse to but not exactly what they agreed to. do not deny that. PLA cant make head way... their population is fed up with the process and start bombings to make isreal see that they are not going to take teh BS that they are doing. in return Isreal flattens homes in actual "PLA" road map areas not ones in other areas..... Isreal is building a security fence to save tehm selves fromt eh "evil" muslims...... which enrages the terroists more because they never do what they agree to, so it sparks more attacks, and the ball keeps rlling..... if Isreal would stick word for word to what they agree o attacks would go down and may even stop........ peace would be attained.... is that not what you want?



but wait.... i still dont fucking know if your an israli or not.......


so answer my first damned question

and its a valid question to ask and you know it

No i'm not israeli i'm french but israel is like my second home. I went there about 15 times (or more I don't know). I'm not obliged to say more, because I have no obligation to tell my life to people on the internet. I just don't want it. I was also taught not to speack about that with:
1) people I don't really know (like you)
2) people who never went there or at least who kinda "fantasm" based on what they just see on TV about what appen there (you, i guess)
3) people who don't have enough knowledge and capacity to speack about a conflict that is so complex (you, maybe?).

Once again, the thread is not about Israel. I don't want pandora or jarmo to lock the discussion because we get into off-topic. I want people who have KNOWLEDGES. Do you understand? I know at least one people in that case on that board (Rain). I know I can speack about that with her (and we did it) because I think she has enough knowledges to have a serious discussion on that specific point. Sometimes we agreed, sometimes not, but we had a serious discussion. Now, once again, that's not the subject of this thread. That's why i don't totally answer to your question and I won't do it.

If you are really interested in what I think, make a research, click on "nesquick" and you'll have a lot to read about that. I said everything I though on that point. Nothing to add.

yes you dont have to tell us. but i dont see why; its not like it's disease or something.
we dont care.
let's step away from israel.
think in absolute.
do you really think evil is INSIDE these people, that they ARE like that no matter what;
do you give any importance to what happend in their lives ?
do you think all this terrorsit shit happens because they are just evil ... and they are just attacking the poor little girl "western countries" that have beed doing good things all the time ...

do the victims (usa, europe ...) have their responsabilities in what is going on - in history -? did we do something ? or we're just innocent victims (global countries, im not talking about the actual innocent victim in the subway) ?

yes I think a mother and her little baby taking the bus, the metro or walking in the streets are innocent people.
it's weird you absolutely try everything to JUSTIFY terrorist attacks.
For me there is no justifications.

Oh and now i'm fed up to talk with retarded weirdo people. Having different opinions is one point, but trying to justify and to normalize those terrorist atacks are suspect. if you think a mother and her baby who have asked nothing to anybody deserve to be killed in a terrorist attacks, well, you're a weirdo specimen.

Sure, Western countries do bear some of the responsibility. The responsibility of letting people die in Africa for instance. That's weird how many times people asked if nesquick was an Israeli or not, but no one tried to answer the question I asked twice in the thread: millions of people are dying every year in Africa because of AIDS, curable diseases, malnutrition; why don't we see Africans blowing themselves up in Western cities because they feel left out? Aren't they as poor as the terrorists? No one even touched that subject. I guess terrorist have their reasons in the Middle East, but poverty in Africa is not an issue.

I think we all understand what each other is saying but we all disagree. That's cool, but saying the West has its share of responsibility doesn't make the killings any more justified. And it actually brings no answer to the problem. I don't think anyone is saying the West is all pure and the Middle East is all evil (well, some people do but that's not the majority). Lots of shades of grey come in between, but it doesn't change a thing to say they have their reasons. Sure, we can't bomb every country that protects/ feeds terrorisms. That is not the solution. But we can't just stand on the side of the road watching innocent people being killed by terrorists because they have their reasons either.

your point about african kids is interesting ... but it's just different .... it's not the same level.
sure there is some huge responsability in how africa is right not ... but it's not as clear and direct as the middle-east intervention ....

and well, africa is not in *shape * to rebel and fight back ... there is more despair i guess ..
i dont know ...

i think understanding the *enemy* is a thekey to future peace.
if we can't understand how our acts brought these kinda of retaliation, then we're fucked...

on that, good night ! :)

numb nut...... you keep telling us the answer but you wll not open your eyes to see that what your saying is wrong and not right, is the same thing that we are using to "normalise" terroism. you just fail to see that for some cases if not a high number of them there is some form of westren hatred that existed from something that has happend that they balme on the west or can be linked to a westren counry or ideals. random village gets bombed , mother abd baby get killed brothers want revenge join group to take teh revenge.... oh well you know who bombed thje village? a western country... accidental yes... or could jsut be a westren worker hits and kills the women and child while driving through the streets.... what ever it comes down to a hatred to western ideals and how they got there ususally has a tramatic event that can be linked to.... or it could simply be a friends family gets wasted..... what ever it dont matter...... but its the same damn thing your cring about...... you cant freacking see it cause your hung up on the only pure is west.... east is evil.... wtf..... thats where a hitler point should be used.....

Well, looks like bombs went off today in Egypt.  Wonder why that was?  Were they part of the war in Iraq?  No.  Part of the war in Afghanistan?  No.  Supporters of Israel?  No. 

When people try to get in the mind of a terrorist and justify or at least explain their reasoning for commiting the horrible acts that they do, I think they fail to realize that these people hate us as much for the good acts that we do as they do for the bad ones.  If you listen they will cite Afghanistan as much as they cite Iraq as motives for bombings. 

These people kill everywhere: Sudan, Kashmir, Israel, Phillipines, United States, Britain, and Spain.  They have been doing so far before the war in Iraq and the interventionist policies of the United States.  Ironically, we place blame on the only countries that are doing anything to fight it.  Until we get off our blame ourselves game and we start to fight this terror as a nation and as a world, bombs will continue to blow and people will continue to die.

What else are we to do?  Do we really not fight these people?  Do we pull out of Iraq and Afghanistan?  How will this help?  It will only make it easier for them to train and reproduce.  At the very least, we must realize that even if we were wrong in the past it is us versus them now.  Either we kill them, or they will kill us.

I dont exactly see why it matters that you have been to Israel or are Israeli?  It is not like you are posting from your personal experience.  I dont ask someone if they are American if they are for the war, or if they are French if they are against it.  It doesnt really matter does it?  All countries have people on all sides if the isle.  I think the only reason they want to know is to try and discredit your arguments. 

Surfrider, I totally agree with you. Exellent posts (the 2 one you wrote ahead)


I think they just are ignorant persons. Don't search for more. When people are limited, you can't do anything.

lol

your some funny....... christ...... you sound so familair its almost intresting to play the game..... but you know what you hit the nail on the head, it is much easier to discredit someone that has very tight ties to one side over the other, so that is why they are valid questions. It will give or take away weight to one views..... see that shows how "limited" in capicty that you are, you can not go outside and look at the whole picture, you look at it as if there is no reason on the other side. To know ones enemy is to defeat ones enemy. The more that you can understand the valuse and ideals of them and be able to see the reasons as to why events are occuring, and through this knowledge you can then learn how to defeat your enemy.





funny ya know what, the group that took responsibility was a grpoup close to Uncle Laden...... the resort is frequented by "rich" arabs....... hmmmmm doesnt the formula go (terroism = rich arabs - some of their money + terroist group/ extremist group) ? doesnt make sence to hit that close to the money does it?.... to me id say it was a setup attack by a goverment agencey..... it would make sence and use the name of another group to do it..... oh  oh  I know they have been to close to the west so that is why it was hit...........


Surf go pack you bags and actualy think out you responces first...... they seem sooooo contrived

had to some back to this one again..................


if you were talking to a person about a medical procedure and getting it done. the person was eitehr very for or aginst but was oppisite to your views..... would you want to know if they had a personal experience... or were a health care professional?


CREDINTALS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

christ i dont know who is worse about it you or surftrain

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=55954

looks like that guy they shot dead was a mistake.

im sure this will add fuel to the fire that is this debate.

I wouldn't call it a mistake. A man left a known terrorist "hang out" that had been being watched, in a long winter coat on a hot summer day. He then headed to a subway station, sprinted down the stairs, jumped the turnstyle and headed right for a train........ next, while being trailed by several police who were yelling for him to stop he continued to run for the train....... after repeated chances for him to stop he was shot dead.......

Where is the mistake???

What should they have done, let him on the train??? There was no way they could risk him being a suicide bomber and let him detonate it either on the train or while in their custody.

Sad yes........Wrong no.

yeah who runs away from the police ? and who runs away from the police in the subway few weeks after terrorist attacks ... ???

if it would have been me id have ear buds in so i wouldnt hear the police.... hopping the turnstyle no big deal.... probley used to getting chased when hopping teh style.... shot dead.... wrong... shot not wrong.... how many times ahve the police been accused of being hot triggers and not going for incapisation shots you shoot for teh legs.... arm.... high shoulder.... you go for the outside  of the target not the center mass unless u intend to kill


yet again the police do their job but in a situation like that if a guy is running form the cops and is a bomber.... dont ya think he would have  the detonator on his person to blow it regardless......?

yes yes.... i know shoot him right no reation time..... but keep in mind he was gting yelled at he would have known it was up... and could have blown it...


but we got over stressed cops tring to do the job and the are making mistakes.... if it was you hopping the style... would you expect to get shot? what is the goal of terriosm... to make you not to be able to function normaly.... granted the incresed security is something we should have had for years... but the quick shots are not helping any one out... it actually will cause the problem to increase because next time the cops will be too slow to shoot..... wing em and worry about it after..... nail the next one dead if its a terroists.......

He didn't get shot for jumping a turnstyle. He got shot for the series of events that even preceded that.

Also, in a perfect world a shot to the back of knee would have been great but think about it: If he were a suicide bomber his goal is to kill as many people as possible. If he makes it to the train he kill 20+, if he blows himself up in the middle of the platform he maybe takes a handful with him........ He would detonate the second he is "imobilized"..... It's sad.... but If you dont want to be shot, don't run out of a suspected terror safehouse and sprint into a train station in 90 degree weather wearing a goose down jacket.

The thing that sucks here is they are being crucified for taking this poor "illegal alien" who was there on an expired VISA out....... but if they had let him reach the train and he blew the thing up 300 feet from the platform they would have been dragged thru the mud for not doing enough in the war against terror.

You asked if I expect to get shot for jumping a turnstyle..... I wouldn't (get shot that is, because I have ditched a fare or two in my day) becuase I don't look like a terrorist. It's an ugly comment but it's true. 90 year old white women aren't blowing up trains, last I checked I wasn't even a little nervous to sit next to a 17 year old Japanese boy on a plane.
Granted there are exceptions, but the unfortunate fact is he looked enough like a "terrorist" for his own good. It sucks, but reality is reality

wtf did i say there in that post....... clear as mud i guess........


the problem here is most people only read 2 lines and scim the rest......... if you actualy read everything that was posted and thought about what was said... for ohhhh i dont know 2 mins befre posting, im sure you would notice that the thread went on to say (in a manner that continued from what was said from teh previos poster) that said the timeline of events, that it was a overlook about habits..... if you are hopping turnstyles whenever you grab a train......regardless if your a terroist or not are you going to stop...... like i said this guy had probley hoped the style many times in teh past and got chased and yelled at..... is he going to change his habbit? noooooooooooooooooooooooo

as you said it was basd on a serious of event that proceded the shooting... and hoping of the style.......... if it was based on survalence..... if your not looking ofr it... how was the victim to know he was getting survalled? how was he to know that the the events that would spell his demise were in motion........ if you elinimate what he only had a 90%chance of knowing..... then to his point of view he was killed BC he hoped a style.


accept it or not........ its NEVER cut and dry one way............ if you actualy THINK then you can see that there is more then what the reports say. The general population is so accepting of what is told in the media, that it can be the only way....... but the media rarely will take the stance that someone like me not in the public eye can take, and that is as ive put it, out there looking at the angles to see what can be done better

the second blasts IMO are copy cats regardless of what is released to the media

London bomb suspect faces extradition from Italy
 
By Phil Stewart and Gavin Jones

ROME (Reuters) - Italian authorities prepared extradition proceedings on Saturday for a London bombing suspect arrested in Rome on Friday, a judicial source said, as police carried out searches into his contacts across Italy.

Interior Minister Giuseppe Pisanu said suspected bomber Osman Hussain, apprehended at a Rome apartment, tried to evade capture with the help of contacts among Italy's Ethiopian and Eritrean immigrant communities, after he fled London on July 26.

Pisanu said there were at least 15 ongoing searches.

British authorities have requested Hussain's extradition and a judicial source in Italy, who declined to be named, said Hussain would face an extradition hearing later on Saturday in Rome. No further details were immediately available.

Hussain, one of four top suspects tied to the failed July 21 attacks on London's transportation network, is accused of trying to explode a device on the train heading to Shepherd's Bush, on the Hammersmith and City line in west London, Pisanu said.

Police have arrested another three prime suspects in London and Birmingham.

"From the investigations, it has been possible to identify a dense network of individuals belonging to the Eritrean and Ethiopian communities in Italy, believed to have helped him (Hussain) cover his tracks", Pisanu said.

Pisanu said Hussain was born in Ethiopia, not Somalia, as the government said on Friday. Police say he travelled by train from London to Paris, Milan and on to Rome.

Explaining the searches, Pisanu said Hussain had been in contact with East Africans in Milan and Brescia in northern Italy. He said the Ethiopian father of Hussain's girlfriend lived in Brescia, an industrial city just east of Milan.

Hussain was arrested on Friday at what police said was a relative's apartment outside Rome's historic centre.

The minister's comments came as he pushed new anti-terrorism legislation through parliament, meant to bolster Italy's fight against Islamic militants with longer detention of suspects, saliva samples for DNA tests on suspects, and greater surveillance of Internet and telephone traffic.

Pisanu said that the terrorist threat to Italy was real. Without mentioning Hussain directly, he said al Qaeda was sending terrorists from lawless east African territories.

"We are following the situation in the horn of Africa, where, in stateless territories, al Qaeda arrived and settled, and from where it aims through various means to send its members to Europe and the rest of the world," Pisanu said.

He added that the Italian navy was carefully patrolling waters off the Horn of Africa.

---

Entire alleged bomb ring held after raids in London and Rome

Ian Cobain, Rosie Cowan and Richard Norton-Taylor
Saturday July 30, 2005
The Guardian

All five suspected members of a suicide bomb gang which attempted to bring carnage to London were under arrest last night after three were seized in dramatic SAS and police raids in London and another was captured in Rome.
The hunt continues, however, for the men who armed, trained and inspired the young rucksack bombers, and senior Scotland Yard officers warned that yet more cells of would-be killers may remain at large.

"It would be a mistake to think we are at the end of this," a senior Scotland Yard source said. "We might just be at the beginning."

In a day of rapidly moving developments, the manhunt first focused on west London, where three of the suicide bombing suspects were arrested in armed raids, one of which developed into an anxious three-hour siege.

One of those arrested is suspected to be a fifth gang member who is thought to have discarded his bomb under a bush on open land a few yards from one of the raided flats.

The others were Muktar Said-Ibrahim, 27, an Eritrea-born British citizen wanted for questioning over the attempt to blow up a bus in east London, and a man named as Ramsi Muhammad, who is suspected to have attempted to blow up his rucksack bomb on a tube train at Oval, south London.

A few hours later the manhunt switched to Liverpool Street railway station, six miles to the east, which was sealed off after two young women were led away by armed police who had ordered them to lie face down before being handcuffed.

Finally, Giuseppe Pisanu, the Italian interior minister, announced that the man wanted for questioning over the attempt to blow up an underground train at Shepherd's Bush had been tracked down to his brother-in-law's home in Rome.

He was named as Hussein Osman, 27, a Somali-born British citizen from Stockwell in south London. He is thought to have been using his relative's Italian mobile telephone while in London.

One of the suspects, Yasin Hassan Omar, 24, a Somali who has lived in Britain for 13 years, is already being questioned after being arrested in a dawn raid on a house in Birmingham three days ago.

He is reported to have demanded an interpreter during questioning at Paddington Green police station in west London, and is said to be complaining that he is suffering headaches and nausea after being hit with a Tazer stun gun.

One of yesterday's raids led to a tense three-hour stand-off while scores of heavily armed officers from the Yard's SO19 firearms unit surrounded the building.

Witnesses described how a man wearing what appeared to be a bus driver's uniform had earlier been led to a four-storey block of flats in Dalgarno Gardens, north Kensington. After pointing out a property on the top floor he was led away with his hands bound behind his back with white plastic ties.

A rapid series of explosions then signalled that the raid was under way.

Soldiers from the SAS had moved in to blow the door off the flat. Large amounts of teargas were also used, and there were unconfirmed reports that the soldiers had tossed stun grenades inside.

As police sealed off nearby streets and shouted at residents to get indoors, more officers clad in overalls and wearing black balaclavas descended on the scene.

Some officers could then be heard shouting to the suspects to strip to their underwear, walk out of the flat, turn into the corridor, and then stop. Officers could clearly be heard addressing the suspects as "Muhammad" and "Mr Ahmed".

Towards the end of the siege they could be heard demanding why one of the men would not come out of the building. He shouted back: "I'm scared. How do I know you won't shoot me?"

In a reply which apparently referred to the shooting of an innocent man a week earlier, one officer is said by witnesses to have shouted in reply: "That was a mistake."

Police said that neither man wanted to leave the building, but, a Scotland Yard source said: "In the end there was so much gas in there that they had no choice."

Eventually, both men could be seen being led away to police vehicles, wearing white paper overalls and gloves, their faces hidden behind boards held aloft by detectives.

Teams of explosives experts and forensics officers then poured into the building.

The SAS provided what anti-terrorist sources described as technical assistance to the police. "It was not a military operation", the sources emphasised.

Fewer than 10 soldiers, members of a Hereford-based squadron which specialises in counter-terrorist operations, are thought to have been involved. The squadron is ready for deployment at three hours' notice anywhere in the country if the police or MI5 suspect that armed terrorists are in a building. The troops are understood to have moved to a secret location in London immediately after the escape of the would-be suicide bombers on July 21.

It is thought to have been the first SAS operation in London since the Iranian embassy siege of 1980.

Michael Hanning, who lives near the west London raids and was on the Aldgate train that was bombed on July 7, said: "I heard an explosion around 11am. I was very freaked out - it seems to keep following me around at the moment.

"As soon as I heard the explosion I had to get out because I felt safer being out. This has really unnerved me. I still see those people down on the tube."

Jane Hyndman, who lives near Dalgarno Gardens, said she heard a loud explosion just after midday, and then a helicopter overhead.

"There were armed police everywhere, the street was cordoned off and then there were what sounded like four shots.

"We were worried there could be a bomb or some kind of chemical attack, but the police seem to have handled it all very well."

Police wielding machine guns and clad in gas masks also raided a flat less than a mile away in Tavistock Crescent, Notting Hill, where they arrested a man suspected of being the fifth member of the gang. Residents said the flat was occupied by a Somali family.




/jarmo

Terror suspect gives first account of London attack

? Rome captive 'says Iraq sparked plot'
? Security chiefs fear new wave of assaults
? Huge hunt for bomb mastermind
? Death gangs were linked, say police

by Tony Thompson, Mark Townsend, Martin Bright and Barbara McMahon Rome
Sunday July 31, 2005
The Observer

One of the men accused of taking part in the failed terror attacks in London on 21 July has claimed the bomb plot was directly inspired by Britain's involvement in the Iraq war.
In a remarkable insight into the motives behind the alleged would-be bombers, Hussain Osman, arrested in Rome on Friday, has revealed how the suspects watched hours of TV footage showing grief-stricken Iraqi widows and children alongside images of civilians killed in the conflict. He is alleged to have told prosecutors that after watching the footage: 'There was a feeling of hatred and a conviction that it was necessary to give a signal - to do something.'

But some of the Italian media reports told a conflicting story. Some reports quoted Osman as saying: 'I hardly know anything. They only gave me a rucksack to carry on the tube in London. We wanted to stage an attack, but only as a show. Who gave me the explosive? I don't know. I didn't know him. I don't remember. We didn't want to kill, we just wanted to scare people.'

Milan's Corriere della Sera newspaper said Osman first told authorities he did not know what was in the backpack he took on the London underground, then changed his version, saying he was told the attackers were only supposed to carry out 'demonstrative' attacks. But the Rome daily Il Messaggero said the suspect told investigators: 'We were supposed to blow ourselves up.'

Osman allegedly said: 'More than praying we discussed work, politics, the war in Iraq ... we always had new films of the war in Iraq ... more than anything else those in which you could see Iraqi women and children who had been killed by US and UK soldiers.'

If these reports turn out to be true, they will provide valuable insights into the workings of the alleged terrorist cells. The revelations come as police in the UK begin hunting an al-Qaeda mastermind believed to be behind the recruitment and training of both sets of London bombers.

The prospect of a UK mastermind controlling the cells raises fears that other units may be active in Britain. Despite the arrest of all five men wanted in connection with the failed attacks, the Metropolitan Police Commissioner, Sir Ian Blair, warned last night of the risk of further bomb attacks.

According to the reports, Hussain claimed the men did not talk about al-Qaeda or Osama bin Laden. 'We had no contacts with the organisation of bin Laden. We knew it existed - we accessed its programmes through the internet - but nothing directly,' he is reported to have claimed, adding that the bombings of 7 July took them by surprise: 'We never had any contact with the Pakistanis.'

However, the bombs that devastated London that day were a signal that they could go into action. 'Our boss taught us how to make explosives out of fertilisers,' he is reported to have said, claiming the men put them into rucksacks and used timers.

Security sources fear that at least one senior figure in the global terror organisation is based in the UK. He may have taken part in a whitewater rafting trip used as a bonding session for several of the suicide bombers in north Wales in early June.

Sweeping new security measures are to be introduced on Britain's road and rail networks this week, including highway patrol officers on the M25 who will check bridges for bombs.

Senior officers are particularly concerned there could be a third attack on Thursday, two weeks after the last attempt. One officer said: 'When you look at the history of terrorist attacks and of al-Qaeda in particular, there is a pattern of repeated attacks on the same targets. They hit the World Trade Centre twice. They attacked the embassies in Egypt twice. If anything the level of security around public transport on Thursday will be even higher than last.'

Rather than the two cells being linked directly, investigators are now focusing on the idea that the men responsible for the 7 July bombs and those behind the failed attacks on 21 July may have been recruited and directed by the same person.

'If you look at the structure of al-Qaeda, what you basically have is a pyramid,' a security source told The Observer. 'If you see the two groups of bombers as two separate teams of footsoldiers on the very bottom, then there is a possibility they are linked by the command structure in the level above. This is the level we are trying to identify and track down.'

The hunt has been given fresh impetus by this new intelligence which suggests that, rather than being manufactured between them, the explosives given to the bombers were handed over by people so far unidentified.

Italian officials are preparing extradition proceedings against Osman. They say he was born in Ethiopia, not Somalia, and may have used fake documents to obtain British citizenship.

The Interior Minister, Giuseppe Pisanu, told his parliament yesterday that Osman had tried to evade capture with the help of contacts among Italy's Ethiopian and Eritrean immigrant communities, after fleeing London on the Eurostar train.

The suspect appeared before magistrates yesterday. His lawyer, Antonietta Sonnessa, objected to his extradition and said it could take up to two months for him to be returned to London.

It has also emerged that Britain's Somali community 'shopped' the first alleged bomber, Hassan Omar, who was found in Birmingham last Wednesday.





/jarmo

London on high alert

More than 6,000 police officers are on duty in London this morning, four weeks after the July 7 attacks in which four suicide bombers killed 52 people on three tube trains and a bus.
The huge number of police - many of whom are armed - is aimed at calming commuters and helping to track down any bombers.

Undercover officers are also travelling on tubes and buses, two weeks to the day after the failed July 21 London bombings. SAS soldiers will be on standby to assist police in case of any violent confrontations.

There has been no specific intelligence about a third wave of attacks, but London remains on high alert. All police leave has been cancelled.

Last Thursday, a similar operation saw the largest number of police on the streets of the capital since the second world war. British Transport police have drafted in officers from outside London to increase the security presence.

Police guarding key points in the city will be armed with weapons including MP5 sub-machine guns and Glock 17 pistols.

Marksmen will be equipped with AW50 heavy sniper rifles, which have a range of more than one mile. Armed response vehicles will be stationed around London, ready to respond to any attacks.

The Piccadilly line today reopened fully for the first time since the July 7 blast on a train between Kings Cross and Russell Square stations. All tube stations will have some service today, although the Circle line remains suspended in off-peak hours.

The first person to be charged in connection with the July 21 attacks will appear in court today.

Ismael Abdurahman, 23, of Kennington, south London, faces charges that he allegedly withheld information that could have helped police catch suspects.

Scotland Yard confirmed that one of the men arrested in Brighton, East Sussex, during the weekend as part of the July 21 investigation had been released.

There are still 14 other people in custody in the UK, and one in Italy, in connection with the investigation.

Hussain Osman, the alleged Shepherd's Bush bomber who was arrested in Rome, claimed the devices used had been harmless and were packed only with flour.

However, the Metropolitan Police commissioner, Sir Ian Blair, and his senior aides believe the devices would have caused death and destruction on a level comparable to that of July 7 had they exploded properly.

As detectives questioned the July 21 suspects at Paddington Green police station, in central London, it emerged that the July 7 bombers had reportedly used everyday items, such as bleach, in the manufacture of their explosives.

New York police officials said the bombs had been made in Leeds and stored in an industrial-strength fridge, and were probably set off using mobile phones.

http://www.guardian.co.uk



/jarmo

i have a new name for jarmo : AP ;D

London bomber video aired on TV (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4206708.stm)

Video of 7/7 ringleader blames foreign policy  (http://politics.guardian.co.uk/terrorism/story/0,15935,1561404,00.html)



/jarmo

Zawahri says al Qaeda behind London blasts-video

DUBAI (Reuters) - Al Qaeda carried out the July suicide bombings in London to strike at "British arrogance," the group's second-in-command Ayman al-Zawahri said in a video tape aired on Arab satellite channel Al Jazeera on Monday.

"The London attack is one of the attacks that al Qaeda ... had the honor of carrying out against ... British arrogance, the aggression of the crusader British against the Muslim nation for over a hundred years," Zawahri said.

He denounced Britain for "the historical crime of setting up Israel and the continuing crimes in Afghanistan and Iraq.

"These and other attacks have revealed the true hypocritical face of Western civilization that talks about human rights and freedom only as long as it is in its interest," he said, citing the planned toughening of British security laws after the London blasts.

A U.S. counterterrorism official said the tape was "al Qaeda's clearest public statement to date suggesting that they were responsible (for the London attack). But that in and of itself does not prove that al Qaeda planned or directed the attack. They're quite happy to take responsibility for any terrorist attack."

The U.S. official, who said the tape was still being reviewed by intelligence officials, said it was "still unclear what the nature and extent of their involvement (in London) was."

Zawahri denounced elections in Afghanistan, saying they were not free and were carried out under U.S. occupation. "These elections are a farce more than anything else," he said.

He insisted the Taliban were still powerful and said U.S. forces had to "hide" in their bases.

Al Jazeera said the tape was prepared by al Qaeda's media group al-Sahab, which distributes Islamic militant videos on the Internet, to mark the fourth anniversary of the Sept 11, 2001, attacks.

The video, excerpts of which were aired by TV network, had English subtitles and showed Zawahri apparently talking to an off-camera interviewer.

The U.S. counterterrorism official said the subtitles, along with the use of English speakers in past tapes, were a sign al Qaeda leaders wanted their messages to resonate better in the West and to get "better play" in the Western media.

"They are quite savvy on the propaganda front," he said.

In the latest tape, Zawahri, Osama bin Laden's right-hand man, also denounced reforms in the Muslim world promoted by the United States, saying Washington would not tolerate independent Islamic governments.

"The Americans will not allow any Islamic system to come to power even in the heart of the Muslim world unless it collaborates with them," said Zawahri, who wore a black turban and a white robe.

---

London bombers staged dry run to capital

LONDON (Reuters) - Three of the London suicide bombers staged a dry run to the capital just over a week before they blew themselves up on the transport network and killed 52 commuters, the police said on Tuesday.

Anti-terrorist police chief Peter Clarke told reporters that surveillance television footage showed three of the four bombers visited London on June 28 and spent nearly four hours travelling around the capital.

"The obvious suggestion is they possibly were conducting a reconnaissance on that day. We know that's part of terrorist methodology," said Clarke. "It was a dry run."

He said they travelled by train from Luton and arrived at Kings Cross station in London just before 9 a.m. They were then captured on CCTV cameras at Baker Street underground station and again at Kings Cross shortly before 1 p.m.

He said two of the men were carrying rucksacks but there was nothing to indicate there were bombs inside.





/jarmo

Now that Al-Queida have owned up to the London bombings, I will hearby apologise, for my doubts it was actually them that carried out the attacks. However, I still believe I was wrong for the right reasons, I still feel that conclusions such as those made by other members of this board immediately after the incident are unjustified. At that time there was no proof Al-Queida were behind these attacks. Although I know there will be "I knew it's" and "told you so's" by some of those people, I also know there will be a time, and there has been times in history, where conclusions made by such people are wrong. They will then be wrong, for the wrong reasons.