Here Today... Gone To Hell!

IMO, the mixing and to a lesser extent the mastering of CD is one of the main reasons for the lengthy wait

In the NYT article, reference was made to a library's worth of archived recordings - there must be thousands upon thousands of tracks to wade through. The mixing process, or the piecing together of these tracks, must be a painstaking process - the volume, pitch, frequency and spacing of each track must be considered in relation to the tracks that it sits with...

I read an article with Bill Price recently and he talked about the mixing of November Rain and what an intricate, time consuming process that was. I think we're in broad agreement that there will be a lot of epics of this nature on CD, so that further adds to the monumental task at hand.

There are no doubt many other reasons for the amount of time (touch ups, legal probs, Axls perfectionism/obsessivness) but if the band has finished their respective parts, I'd say the mixing and mastering is going to take a long time.

What are peoples thoughts?

IMO each person called into the studio to mix the album, mixed a certain set of songs. I dont think one person is going to mix/produce the whole album. Ie Beltremi (sp?) mixed a few songs, then that Buckmaster mixed a few songs, etc etc.

you could be right, although for the sake of consistency and coherance, I hope not

i think it's important that an album have a coherent "sound"

Interesting topic, Jimmy. This is a topic that brings up a touchy subject:overproduction. If all this time is being spent doing what you've just described, CD is entering Def Leppard-Hysteria territory. More time was spent mixing and doing "finishing touches" than the band spent doing the music. The album really suffered for it too. It was way too polished and became dated very quickly, and Hysteria, although being one of the biggest selling albums of the 80's. is now basically irrelevant. Axl really needs to be careful with how much he tinkers with this album.

i don't think chinese democracy will neither sound dated or over-produced, as axl has more of a "mature" sound now it seems, and i think that's the type of mistakes he's trying to avoid. he doesn't want to do the illusions all over again, although they were great albums. axl's a man to move on and create new, not re-do what he's already done.

August, maybe you're right. But you cant just discount what I just said, because its a definite possibility. Look at Illusions, GNR only worked on that for a little less than 2 years, and it was overpolished.

well the use your illusions weren't supposed to be appetite, which was more of a basic rock n' roll type record, although brilliant and unique. but the illusions were supposed to sound different, that's what axl wanted, according to himself, to "bury" appetite in order to not re-do what he's already done. and now he wants to move on from the illusions, just like with appetite back in the day. you won't see another use your illusion record in regards to music, so i think the production will be different as well. axl knows that he has to do it that way. he stays up on things, he isn't "dated" or stuck back in the 80's like alot of other rockstars seem to be.

From what we've heard, it's going to be a melting pot of influences and extremes - probably closer to some of the more rangey Illusions material I'd guess.

I hope it's not overproduced, and I hope it's got a timeless quality - I was worried a few years ago that it was going to be too informed by the industrial genre - I think Axls moved away from this a bit now though

Even choosing which tracks, be it guitar/ vocal/strings/keys parts out of the reported thousands, is going to be a vast task and an extremly time-consuming process, regardless of whether it's overproduced or not

 I REALLY REALLY HOPE SO.
I wasn't worried about that...I was in pannic. Especially when I heard OMG and later Silkworms.

the blues, madagascar and IRS are much better quality songs though.

No, Beltrami and Buckmaster didn't mixed/produced the songs, but they orchestrated.

I really don't think Axl would be that stupid to just put an overproduced album. Hell, anyone would think that it could be overproduced. Don't you think Axl would be careful with that?


Axl already saind back in 2001 that he will not make an industrial album. I dunno why some of you are still so worried about that...

??? really? I wasn't aware of that. Do you have the interview?

I really dont think CD will have an overproduced sound. Its sounds like Axl has "educated" himself with various types of musical technoligies over the years and Im sure he knows what sound he wants for the album. and he will achieve that sound

You never intentionally set out to make an overproduced album. Overproduction takes place when you do things like sit in a studio for 10 years working on the same album.

yeah but Axl has this vision in his mind of what he wants the sound to be and can't acheive it in a reasonable amount of time, the odds of overproduction is likely.

Over produced is an overrated term. The UYIs sounded fine. All over produced means is the songs sound polished and perfect and not raw and have mistakes.

That's my biggest issue with the originals we've heard from the new band.  Maddy and The Blues just reak of UYI era schlock to me.  I find them both virtually unlistenable.  I realize some are just so hungry for new stuff they've really latched onto these 2, some even hailing them as "instant classics".  That's cool, objectivity can be thrown out the window when dealing with a rabid, material starved fanbase.

My hopes are with IRS and a path in that direction, lot's of potential there.

Just my opinion..

You are in the miniority that don't like those songs. People like you crack me up. You wish the old band would get back together yet when the new band makes songs like found on an old album you bash them.? You really need to get a life and stop bashing peoples taste in music that is not the same as yours. Get over yourself already. You have been doing this for years, its getting very old.

Just my opinion.

I'm afraid you maybe disappointed with CD then.  I don't think this will be a modern AFD.

I agree this is going to sound nothing like AFD and if that's what certain people are hoping for, it aint gonna happen.  Just from what we have heard so far to me nothing sounds like AFD or UYI's.  Even The Blues, I like the song but I don't hear the finesse like the Illusions ballads had but that could be cause it's live boot and not a studio version.

R&P: Is your new material more industrial? We hear that it is not very similar to that of your old band.

Axl: It is not industrial, the closest thing to that was perhaps Oh My God, but there are some songs that won't be on the album that were this way. There will be all kinds of styles, many influences as blues, mixed in the songs. But not so much inspiration of Aerosmith or AC/DC that was used on Appetite. Buckethead, his first influence and the reason why he grabbed a guitar for the first time was Angus Young of AC/DC. Several of the boys love to play AC/DC. It is only we will play other styles. When we tried writing songs in the old style of Guns N' Roses, they sounded too old, they didn't sound so alive. We could not make that. And I think that that also passed with the old Guns N' Roses. The songs composed by the boys for another album many years ago, everything sounded old. Then we tried to explore to maintain the band alive.


Source: http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/articles/showarticle.php?articleid=38

   Jameslofton, I don't know about that one.  Hysteria sounded, and sounds pretty damn good.  It's always been my favorite Def Leppard album.  (I have the cassette :) ) 

   Also, to Falcon (in my opinion) to even suggest Maddy and The Blues are "unlistenable," suggests to me you are in a very, very small minority of Guns fans.  In my opinion, IRS, Maddy, and The Blues thrill the hell out of me, and basically explain my presence on this board!  AFD, Lies, Illusions, and part of TSI are all great, but the new shit is what keeps me here.  If IRS is the only new song that intrigues you, man, I just don't know what keeps you around here.  There's got to be something else...

   On topic again with mixing/mastering, who knows?  From the split-seconds we have of The Blues and Madagascar off of the Boston radio commercial, the songs are powerful.  This whole thing is shrouded in mystery...I guess my answer is, "Only Axl knows."   :peace: 

Shocking truth is that?...that falcon's appraisal somewhat overlaps mine. :o
just a matter of taste.
I'd say blues n maddy are good songs. but musically they are not as interesting as the others.
IRS doesn't sound like AFD. it's more delicate to the feel and yet it is no more than an early rough demo.

The big difference is that I rate the sound of this incarnation even higher than that of the former. :headbanger:
just a matter of taste.
I guess I'm the very one in the miniority, for the time being (until the album surfaces)

The mixing, the mastering
the mix master mic, rocking the clubing
that you be feeling.

Mad is cool, and Blues is alright. IRS has potential, and I feel that its tight.

So fuck a reunion thats bullshit, Axl...speak dog, and he does, he says:

Wanna be me, you can't you faggot, you bitch
You coward, you clown, you just wanna be down
So you - wanna be me, you bitch, you phony
You clone me, you wanna be me son, I'm the one and only

And Slash, you can't be me, not in your wildest fantasy
It's childish; should I have to resort to violence?
Pay me a half a million, I'll consult your album
And show you how to stay off my dick
That's the thing I hate the most, can't even call you a man
When you gotta call out my name to get you some fans
No talent, you need direction; you a pussy with a yeast infection

Yea bitches.

Well, there's allegedly 70? songs in the can so the possibility/probability of higher quality tunes than Maddy or The Blues is reason enough to hang around, don't you think?

I also want to see if Axl can bring it creatively, see his vision through with a finished record and tour.? I? enjoy Fincks inclusion in the band as well and would like to see if he and Axl can be a formidable artistic duo.



I'm not looking for a "modern AFD", I'm fearing UYI 3...

As for mixing/mastering. send the fucker to Andy Wallace and let him do his magic.

What about Mike Clink?  I am not even saying that because of his work with AFD.  I think what he did with Megadeth's Rust in Peace was just brilliant.

Doubt that's even a possibility, too much "old band" linkage..

Falcon, you're absolutely right! Rust in Peace was an absolute work of art. Its one of the greatest heavy metal albums ever made. Since you brought up the subject of that album, I have something to say about that type of music. After Illusions was released, and it was obvious that GNR had unlimited potential, I always thought they should make a record in the style of Megadeth's 'Rust in Peace' or Slayer's 'Seasons in the Abyss'. It would have been a major statement to make in the face of the grunge movement, and might have even killed the movement, and caused a mainstream "speed" metal movement. But unfortunately, it didnt happen. I'll always wonder what the fuck GNR was thinking about in 92-94. They did absolutely nothing to counteract what was going on in the industry.

Sorry JL, wasn't me who mentioned Rust..

I agree that The Blues sounds like something off UYI and I think thats primarily Axls songwriting coming through there

IRS and Chinese Democracy excite me, people dont seem to mention Chinese Democracy so much, I reckon that has potential to be a strong modern rocker

I love The Blues, Madagascer to me is weak

It's hard to define what "overproduced" means - it can be a matter of too many tracks layered, but more worryingly, it's when there is too much of a studio sheen with the flaws, accidents, rawness and human-ness removed
What happens then is that music can sound soul less or "elevator-like"

I've been a strong advocate of CD as well, strip all the unnecessary synth out and you got something to build on.

Falcon, you're right, it was Axl owns Dexter. I didnt notice that until after I posted. Oh well, I'm right 99.9% of the time, I cant be perfect! LMAO!!

It would be nice for CD to be produced by one person, Just to keep its sound right all the way through. Maybe alot of the extra songs will be B sides to the singles.

I agree 100%.

Continuity and focus are a major piece of the equation for me so I'm hoping we don't have multiple
producers, co-producers and whatnot.

I believe the last known producer is Axl himself, can anyone confirm?? That's what I'm hoping for at least, it's his vision so I'd like to see him succeed or fail by his own sword.

Yeah I mentioned that in response to one of Daves earlier posts. In order for an album to sound like an album there must be cohesion and consistency and the production and mixing (and of course playing) plays a big part

So?


As usual, wrong.

I've never said/posted any wishes for a reunion, check my post history.? I'm fully content with what the other guys are doing and look forward to Axl's vision becoming a reality.?


If I didn't care for the old bands forays into the epic, heart on your sleave power ballad why the fuck would I make concessions for the new band?


I've never bashed anyones taste in music, I've merely been consistent in my tastes and am very specific in what I like and dislike.


Yes it is.

Obviously formulated without thought, research or fact.

I never gave a damn about chinese democracy. In my opinion it's a make-believe album from a mind game Axl is playing on his fans. I know the guy doesn't care about his fans, he never did . I imagine Axl as the rock star of a kid trapped inside a man's body. Do you remember when being a little kid in school, waiting too long to hand in homework or abscence excuses , the teacher hollers at you because it's late? That's how Axl is as a musician now and same with before. He canceled the CD tour in 02 because he couldn't take the criticism from people how they were disappointed with the line-up and how his voice changed. I know Axl has made some songs with the new band but that's enough to make an album. Let's see there is Irs,Madagascar,The Blues,Oh My God,Chinese Democracy,Silk Worms,Prostitute,Catcher in Rye ,now correct me if I forgot other new songs. But the songs I mentioned, THERE IS EIGHT!There are albums in history that made it big with only 8 songs. Why is Axl so insecure about his music?

probably because Axl actually wanted to make a grunge album while the others didn't (and hence the differences in musical direction arose, and no album was made)

They made 8 songs in 1995/96

where did you read this?

EMINEM? or John Cena?

Listen to Linkin' Park they are "overproduced" and "polished", that is the best definition I can give.

but you can't really compare, seeing as linking park sucks and all, whereas guns n' roses do not.

I was just stating what I thought overproduced sounds like, even the distortion that linkin park uses sounds clean, personally i don't think UYI's sound "overproduced" (it's a stupid term anyway)

 I for one enjoyed UYI I and II save for the countless filler on the album.  I would appreciate more songs of the caliber of Estranged, Nr, Breakdown, and Yesterdays. Also, I am a realist and don't expect another incarnation of AFD, nor do you.

I don't exactly know what you are anticipating with this album; but you have made it clear what you don't want to hear. I think there will several songs that won't interest you. Just a prediction though. Hell, even speculating that any of us will hear these songs is a prediction.

I'm positive there will be things I'll absolutely cringe at like The Blues or Maddy but I'm sure there will be others that spark serious interest like IRS and possibly CD.?

I will always prefer focus and direction to aimless musical meanderings, (surely to be passed off as diversity by the myopians amongst) and I'll never lose objectivity based on the artist himself.

You'll cringe at 'The Blues'?? Man, thats funny! Its amazing how some people think 'Riyadh' is God's gift to this earth but will cringe at such a beautiful, heartfelt song. 'The Blues' is one of Axl's best written songs. He's offering us a glimpse into his state of mind. As far as Riyadh is concerened: Its been 3 years, and I'm still waiting for someone to come up with an intelligent post about what that song is about.

After seeing the boston version of the blues on video a 100times.  I find it hard how any idoit could not like that song its fuckin awesome and it would go #1 today and the next thing u know ur god damn mom's would be singing the song.   Anyways that song is fantastic!

Absolutely. 

Ryiadh makes me cringe as well, just in a less embarrassing way...

blasphemer, you're absolutely right. When CD comes out and the reviews are in, I think 'The Blues' is gonna be a major highlight of the album, possibly surpassing these so called 'big guns'. if you've ever loved somebody and they left you/shit on you, or have ever been obsessed or infatuated with someone, you can really relate to this song. This song is very original, I take it as like an anti-love song. Its definitely not the type of song to be played at proms and weddings. It will be played in your room, while drowning in your tears and sorrows, because the person you love doesnt love you anymore, or never loved you to begin with.

The blues (studio version) may become a classic.

I do love The Blues.. I can't wait to hear a studio version of it.  Even if it's not in Axl's mind one of his big guns, I think it would make a great single. : ok:

absolutely. if chinese democracy keeps the same high standard as the blues and madagascar, we are in for something huge, believe me. those two songs alone out-class about everything that's out there today.

Bring on the ac/dc inspired songs!!!

I second that. I hope at least some of the songs on CD are fun to listen to (I don't mean that in a 'joke' sense, but an album of ballads would do my head in)

Im hoping for a good serving of diversity
Some straight up classic, but modern sounding rockers
Some epic ballads
Some mid tempo bluesy classics
Some experimental tracks or sequences

sounds like a good follow-up to use your illusion to me. 8)

yip, hopefully less the filler and more cohesive though
But youre right, I do see CD as being a continuation of UYI and what we've heard of it so far does nothing to dispell that notion

I hope for that as well, but if the scenario mentioned below plays out we will get nothing of the sort.


It's exactly what I fear the most...

gotta agree there falcon,

Im hoping that the positive elements of UYI are the elements that come to the fore in CD, if not then an entirely new direction
The thing is that Axls songwriting, is what is heavily associated with UYI for better or worse, and without the input of strong songwriters, (ie Izzy) we may well be in for a large serving of over-wrought /over-earnest Axl epics

Im hoping not though

i don't think we will see another use your illusion, but if the chooses to go that route then that would definately not be a bad thing, as the illusions were a glimpse into the direction he wanted to go with his music.

For my personal tastes it would be a bad thing, a glimpse I didn't care for in '91 and one I have no plans on taking in 2005 and beyond.

Just proves that no matter what it sounds like when/if CD does see the light of day, universal acceptance is probably not in the cards.

I think you are wrong...., the problem is that SHIT HAPPENS in Axl's life..., and that means legal shit with ex members, clear channel, geffen, and a lot of shit we don't know...

Anyway... I have hope we will see Chinese Democracy..., maybe at the end of this year..., and also.. the original line up reunited... like 10 years later...

HAS ANYONE HERE LOOKED BEYOND GUNS N ROSES? AXL HAS PROBABLY SLIPPED A FEW BY US ALREADY..... CO WRITES, VOCALS UNDER AN ALIAS, ETC . fuck, i had my caps lock on..

I hope it won't be overproduced. UYI 2 is PERFECT

Defination of overproduced? I think thats a bit defused word

Go listen to UYI. You will then know what overproduced is. Another good example of an overproduced album is Def Leppard's 'Hysteria'.

are you serious, i dont get it......really.

i heard someone say the same thing n' last time i played Illusions i listend again real hard.........overproduced ???   no fuckin' way 8)

I guess you need something to compare to UYI to see its overproduction. Go listen to AFD first, then listen to UYI. UYI ois just too perfect. I'm not saying they suck, they're great albums. They just tried to hard at achieving perfection. Its not just the ballads either, its all of it. Have you heard the Dont Cry demo? Thats how it would have sounded had it been on AFD. They almost put the DC demo on UYI. They didnt. Probably because it would have really stuck out on the albums.

?

 ? Interesting...I disagree with you saying UYI's are overproduced. ?I think there are some songs I would have taken in a different direction, for example Double Talkin' Jive NEEDS another damn verse, the song is classic, but lyrically it just ends. ?Breakdown doesn't end soon enough, and the ridiculous "outro." scars what should be a classic. ?Live and Let Die is too polished...and if that is synonymous with "overproduced," then I'll agree with you there. ?LALD 2002 is 1000 x's better than off of UYI 1. ?If the UYI's went in that "raw, unpolished, (forgive me here-VR direction)," then we wouldn't have had Coma the way it's presented on UYI 1 which totally kicks ass. ?i.e. the medical staff, sounds, chicks' voices, etc. ?Even compare the demos of November Rain (guitar and piano versions) to the finished product and you can appreciate the "production" of this song.

 ? I will give you one example of "overproduction" from UYI 2...the 14th track never should have been produced. ? ;)

-Axl4prez2004 ? :beer:

PS ?enough of the past, like August 18th said, if we get songs like Maddy and The Blues, (and I'll say a finished product of IRS) we're in for a treat. ? :love:

Axl4Prez, GREAT post! You hit the key elements about UYI. You are dead on about Double Talkin Jive. The song had alot more potential. Its one of my favorites. But you're right, there's something missing. You also hit the nail on the head with Live and Let Die. That song is the perfect example of overproduction. I loved the song when I seen GNR in July 1991, hated it when UYI came out. Good interpretation of Locomotive. I always skip the dull outro. Another example would be Dust N Bones. This song is way too polished, and in the reviews of the album, it goes largely ignored. But when GNR played the song live in 1991, it was a highlight of the show. It truly kicked ass. The album version just sucks the 'kick ass' vibe out of the song. Axl has said he wished he could have done more work on UYI. Just imagine UYI if Axl had worked another year or two on it. Scary thought indeed.

Interesting...I disagree with you saying UYI's are overproduced. ?I think there are some songs I would have taken in a different direction, for example Double Talkin' Jive NEEDS another damn verse, the song is classic, but lyrically it just ends. ?Breakdown doesn't end soon enough, and the ridiculous "outro." scars what should be a classic. ?Live and Let Die is too polished...and if that is synonymous with "overproduced," then I'll agree with you there. ?LALD 2002 is 1000 x's better than off of UYI 1. ?If the UYI's went in that "raw, unpolished, (forgive me here-VR direction)," then we wouldn't have had Coma the way it's presented on UYI 1 which totally kicks ass. ?i.e. the medical staff, sounds, chicks' voices, etc. ?Even compare the demos of November Rain (guitar and piano versions) to the finished product and you can appreciate the "production" of this song.

You're absoutely right about DTJ and Breakdown. The crazy racing commentary by Axl at the end of Breakdown seems to overshadow a very good guitar riff.

  Thanks for the kind words on the post Jameslofton and uzisuicide.  Personally, I blame those technical issues on the difficulties the band had at that time of working together as a team.  I don't think Axl would let that happen again.  What we probably are falling victim to at the moment is that old saying, "Paralysis by Analysis."  Ya know, analyzing something so many times and from so many different perspectives that you become motionless. 

  Great point about Dustnbones too.  I forgot to mention that.  Also, now that I think about it, I prefer the live version of Perfect Crime way more to the studio version.  When Axl sings, "It's per-fect!," on the cd it doesn't have the same caustic effect.  Yeah, I know, now I think we're all overanalyzing!  Dammit Axl we need this album!  We're all going out of our minds!!!   :rant:

i gotta disagree. you are not talking about production. you are talking about writing / creation.
saying that DTJ needs one more verse (and i strongly agree !!!) is not saying that it's under or over produced, it's just that i wasnt well written n your oprnion.

same thing with breakdown.
but here i disagree, the outro is cool. the only thing that keeps this song to be a FUCKIN CLASSIC is the chorus. "breakdown !" screams and the "let me hear it now"  dark voice suck...

but its not production, its writing.

your comments about adding voices, sounds, medical staff, are production i guess. but adding a verse is writing....

Does anyone know who did/does the mixing and mastering (may we all hope that the record has been handed over....)? Maybe if you look at these peoples work you may know if your fears are justified!

I once read an interview in which somebody said that VRs contraband was massively overproduced, he was mentioning sth. with oversampling/ volume too high and stuff I did not quite get...

I totally agree. with a better chorus that song would have been one of the greatest song of all time. same for 14 years with the "14 years of silence etc...". Axl's screams on the chorus damage the song. it's too "violent", it sounds out of context considering the song (blues-rock vibe). But in term of pure songwriting and production, it's GENIUS.