Here Today... Gone To Hell!

Poll: In wake of Iraq war, allies prefer China to U.S.
America's rating was lowest in Turkey, Pakistan and Jordan

Manage Alerts | What Is This? WASHINGTON (AP) -- The United States' image is so tattered overseas two years after the Iraq invasion that communist China is viewed more favorably than the U.S. in many long-time Western European allies, an international poll has found.

The poor image persists even though the Bush administration has been promoting freedom and democracy throughout the world in recent months -- which many viewed favorably -- and has sent hundreds of millions of dollars in relief aid to Indian Ocean nations hit by the devastating December 26 tsunami.

"It's amazing when you see the European public rating the United States so poorly, especially in comparison with China," said Andrew Kohut, director of the Pew Research Center for the People & the Press, which surveyed public opinion in 16 countries, including the United States.

In Britain, almost two-thirds of Britons, 65 percent, saw China favorably, compared with 55 percent who held a positive view of the United States.

In France, 58 percent had an upbeat view of China, compared with 43 percent who felt that way about the U.S. The results were nearly the same in Spain and the Netherlands.

The United States' favorability rating was lowest among three Muslim nations which are also U.S. allies -- Turkey, Pakistan and Jordan -- where only about one-fifth of those polled viewed the U.S. in a positive light.

Only India and Poland were more upbeat about the United States, while Canadians were just as likely to see China favorably as they were the U.S.

The poll found suspicion and wariness of the United States in many countries where people question the war in Iraq and are growing wary of the U.S.-led campaign against terrorism.

"The Iraq war has left an enduring impression on the minds of people around the world in ways that make them very suspicious of U.S. intentions and makes the effort to win hearts and minds far more difficult," said Shibley Telhami, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution.

The overseas image of the United States slipped sharply after the Iraq invasion in 2003, the Pew polling found, and it has not rebounded in Western European countries like Britain, France, Germany and Spain.

However the U.S. image has bounced back in Indonesia, the world's most populous Muslim country which benefited from U.S. aid to tsunami victims, as well as in India and Russia.

Support for the U.S.-led war on terror has dipped in Western countries like Britain, France, Germany, Canada and Spain, while it remains low in the Muslim countries surveyed like Pakistan, Turkey and Jordan.

"The position of the United States as the one surviving superpower is to be assertive in responding in a world of terrorism. But in the rest of the world, there is a great wariness about that," said John Danforth, the former Republican senator from Missouri who also was U.S. ambassador to the United Nations. He is now a St. Louis attorney.

The poll found a positive reaction in European countries to President George W. Bush's campaign for more democracy in countries around the world. People in Muslim countries were wary of the U.S. campaign, but supportive of the idea of democracy in their own countries.

Danforth said the attitudes in the Mideast about democracy were a bright spot.

"We should keep plugging away on democracy," Danforth said. "But we need to do a better job of communicating what we're trying to do."

The survey found that a majority of people in most countries say the United States does not take the interests of other countries into account when making international policy decisions.

It also found most would like to see another country get as much military power as the United States, though few want China to play that role.

People in most countries were more inclined to say the war in Iraq has made the world a more dangerous place. Non-U.S. residents who had unfavorable views of the United States were most likely to cite Bush as the reason rather than a general problem with America.

The polls were taken in various countries from late April to the end of May with samples of about 1,000 in most countries, with more interviewees in India and China and slightly less than 1,000 in the European countries. The margin of sampling error ranged from 2 percentage points to 4 percentage points, depending on the sample size.

Is this actually true?  A country which kills its own people and his horrible in the arena of human rights.  I sure hope this isnt true. 

i dont see that too surprising, as America was in favour of the war in Iraq. Countries like Jordan, Pakistan, and Turkey fear the U.S's strength, and they know China wont bother to invade them. U.S always has a possibiblity of that.

when you pose the question like that, no. But that is a profoundly ill-equipped question. I'm sure someone far more clever than i could think up reasons for disliking the US and putting that into question form.


But if somebody asked me which country i prefered then i'd go for china, without a doubt. In 30 years time it'll be them calling the shots.

Prefer over the US?  Obviously the US has its faults, but you prefer China to the US?  Has the anti-americanism gone that far?

why is it anti-americanism? do you think we have a natural love of america and this has been driven out of us?

A country is not just its government.

This is exactly why I try to combat those articles that question the motives of the US and claim that we lied. ?I think Bush is a jackass, but by printing stories and repeating things that have no basis in fact people believe that we have bad motives for the moves we make. ?Of course, a good part of it is the fault of the administration because they never combat any of the BS.

Perhaps that is the wrong term.  But when you prefer a communist nation that kills its own citizens and is on the bottom of the list of human rights, I am not sure what else to call it.  I can see our faults, but saying that we are less preferred than China?  It makes me happy that we are distancing ourselves from the UN and other world bodies.  If people cant see the difference with the US and China, then Im not sure I want them to have any part in our decision making process.

I prefer china because its government seems less corrupted than the American one. Thus China operates better. But then again, thats how things look like.

Less corrupted?? What do you mean by corrupt?? Letting the people have no say in the politcal process?? I realize that our system has its problems, but you are preffering one-party communist China to the US.  You do realize that we have a free press here, where they have nothing of the kind.  Makes you wonder if you would even get information about corruption in China??

Certainly, I have had my disagreements with Chirac and France, but I wouldnt say I prefer Pakistan or China to them.? That would be ridiculous.

what the hell is this anti-american stuff coming to. i don't agree with decisions the US has made, but how in the hell could Europeans possibly view China as more favourable in regards to the US. that is ridiculous. here in Australia, there's a news story about a chinese immigrant who the chinese government is after. if we send him back to china he will be killed! i forget why they want him, but its probably something like oh.....i dunno wanting to form a democratic party. they've stopped people trying to form a democratic party before and jailed those who do.

do europeans know this? this is just one of the corrupt and unjust things the chinese government do but there are many. wow the media is saying america is so bad......now you can choose to agree or disagree or find out for yourself. but to favour china over us. preposterous!. the only reason the europeans probably believe in what they're saying is because of the constant media criticism of US, if they actually knew what the chinese government got up to these days they would be singing a different tune.

Besides the War in Iraq, what do you dislike about the U.S.?

I'm confused...

You are talking about China or USA?

Well as far as super power goes China is on the way up.

They are trying to buy UNOCAL and Maytag, but more serious they've done deals to buy Venezuelan oil which we are dependent on. They also just bought IBM (PC business) for about 1.75 billion.

 As our dollar drops (Read: Bush) it makes hard assets easy to pick up for foreigners........ Seems like they are taking us head on economically.

I'm curious to see what happens.

I dont understand the backlash at all.

U can't let one person ruin an entire nation.

News stations should run a little disclaimer at the bottom of each Bush speech.

The views expressed in this interview are not the views of all americans, please believe.

I would find that shocking and disappointing to think people would hate our nation because of the War on Iraq and because of who our president is.

Be prepared to be shocked and disapointed then.

at least china has a future, somewhere to go and to evolve.

rich countries like the US or france or, can only go worst and worst.
we're doomed. we're so rotten and sick.
america is almost decadent.

so yeah, if i had to bet on a country and go for it, i'll pick china or a poor country, they CAN go better. they can heal themselves. they can reach to democracy.

america (or any other rich country) is just fucked. we're sick with our plastic surgery tv shows and patriotism.

Ouch!!! That hurts..........

You forgot that we are all getting fat, and have fat kids too!

 :hihi:

Come on, be realistic... That's obviously not going to be a problem for much longer, aren't you aware that they have machines which pump your abs and you don't even have to leave your television?   :yes:

Maybe it is time you take a more honest look at the actions of your country.

At what point are you going to stop blaming everybody else?

Did it ever occur to you that we have lost respect in the world?

Or is your narrow-minded view, ie everybody else is wrong, impossible to let go of?

Bush's approval rating (AT HOME!!!) is between 37-44% (depending on what poll you look at). Do you really think that the world is going to have a better view of us then the nimrods hanging onto their pride here at home?

Part of America's strength was it's ability to inspire people of other nations. We've lost that because of greed, hypocrisy, lies, war crimes, crimes against humanity, and those remaining 37-44% who think Bush is doing a great job. It baffles people abroad.

Hell yea man.

I can watch court tv's most up to date distraction du jour, as my ab machine pumps my abs.

If that doesn't work I can always get a loan for plastic surgery. Those are popping up all over the country now. I could even take a home equity line of credit to do surgery on myself too (very popular as well).

People will like me for my perfect smile, abs, and my yellow magnetic ribbon that goes on the back of my SUV (made in China of course).

what are these yellow ribbons ? ?_?

It may be true ... but I see some logic in here !

We know that China is a pseudo communist regime ... we know about tien an men ... we know about repression ...

We also know the USA is the most powerful democracy in the world. So as a vast majority of Europeans weren't in favor of the iraq war and that G.W Bush didn't care about the UN and the security council and went alone w/ the British the result of the poll is not that surprising.

We don't judge the two countries on the same standards ... Europeans are more prompt to juge badly a democracy that doesn't seem to follow the rules than a communist dictatorship that follows any. China is not out there claiming they are the best democratic country in the planet !

edit to add : of course for the time being I'd still choose the USA ! But I do understand the result of the poll and it's rather surprising you're so amazed. And when I read that as a result you preconise to distance yourselves from the UN and other world bodies you're just so wrong ! What europeans are waiting is for you to comply w/ the rules of these international bodies ... (ie international court of justice).

And the post of the day award goes to................

what are these yellow ribbons ? ?_?

They are magnetic and stick to the back of our cars in America.

Usually say "support the troops" Or "Pray for the troops". Stuff like that. Ironically, many are made in China. The funniest is seeing "Support the troops" on the back of big Toyota 8cylinder SUVs getting 10mpg. These people don't see the irony in this.

(After 9-11 my wife put an American flag magnet on the back of her car...and somebody stole it! What kind of fucker steals an American Flag magnet?? :hihi: )

(http://tinypic.com/69f0hg.jpg)

Also in Flag/ribbon/support the troops:

(http://tinypic.com/69f1as.jpg)

Good analyse. You have a point here.
But for me, it doesn't change the fact Europeans are completly wrong in their views and walk on the head.

i've never seen anybody walk on his head....
and again no ones wrong. depends on what side you stand.

traduce in french and you'll have the right interpretation.

Pervert point of vue in that case. Would you say the Nazis weren't wrong? would you say "it depends what side you stand"? come on...
A dictatorship is a disctatorship. There is no way to even "discuss" on it.

no, but in Nazi's heads they were right. that's all i'm saying.
just like a war
> for iraqis terrorist it's "good" to kill american soldier.
> for american soldiers it's "good" to kill iraqis terrorists.
simple as that :)

Their presidential candidates, thier history of corruption, thier propoganda, the way they take advantage of people to schieve the government's agenda...

dont get me wrong, im nto anto-american and i dont hate america eaither, i just dont like the way their government is slipping away in thier downward spiral.

Comparing our human rights to China is like Dick Durbin comparing our Troops to the Nazis.  Oh wait :nervous:

So in other words, we should prefer Saudi Arabia, Iran, North Korea to an any country in Europe or North America ::)

Certainly SLC, I realize that we have lost some respect in the world.  But preferring China to us, that is a slap in the face.  I would think that even you could figure out how ridiculous this is.  Im not saying that the US is perfect, nor am I saying there isnt a lot to criticize.  I am simply saying that preferring China to us is absolutely ridiculous.  You seriously dont agree with me?

europe is jealous of the US. so there's always been a little hatred towards us.

but when one of these nations gets hit with a terrorist attack or is being invaded by china or some other communist nation, guess who they'll turn to. that's right the good old US of A. and of course, we'll be happy to help.

it's like a little brother, big brother situation. i hated my older brother when i was younger, and i felt like he hated me. he was tougher, smarter, better at everything, and could get away with whatever he wanted. but when i got the shit beat out of me by thugs from other neighborhoods, it was my brother that went out, found them, and kicked their ass. 

uh... the US is a young country.

and there is hatred towards the us from every country in the world.

if you wanna do a metaphore, i'd say the US is a stupid little kid wich has been given big weapons and a lot of moeny, and as he is a young and stupid emo kid,  he does stupid shit. and he wanna look good, and bleach his hair and work out and wears abercrombie (fuck im wearing a A&F shirt right now :( ).
thats the metaphore you wanted to do :)

No offense, but I think that kind of attitude is what turns the rest of the world off about the U.S.

A lot of French people live in my city. They say it's cheaper to live in the U.S. as oppose to France. However, they still love their native country.

I've never been to Europe, and I have nothing against it. I think Europeans are smart and classy people. But I do have a problem with a country that treats its people poorly, such as China. I really don't understand how so many people could favor a country like that over the U.S.

i hear ya.....my jealous comment was half sarcastic.

i don't think all europeans are jealous of the US.  but maybe a better way of saying it is that many are annoyed at the fact that most of the world recognizes the U.S. as the greatest nation on earth.

when you're on top, people are gonna have negative feelings towards you.

there. That is the main reason that i prefer china over america.

I'll take my free health service, better and free to all education system, more tolerant society and (most importantly) better bands over the us anyday.

most of the world recognizes the U.S. as "the greatest nation on Earth?" ?we're all jealous?

Add this to the list of reasons people dislike America: ?Cocky arrogant citizens ?(Not all of you, just the large number of 'sandman's in your midst).

Seriously, you couldn't pay me to live in the U.S.

ahhh.........

The "J" word........

Wondering how long it would take before I saw that.

Not all Americans have an arrogant attitude. That's like saying all French people are rude. It's a clich?. You shouldn't base the U.S. on what you see in movies or on the news, because it's false.

How can you favor a country that dictates its people to choose between their children. They're only allowed a certain amount of children in a house hold.


China has better bands? WTF?

so it's ok for you to say your country is better than the US, but not ok for me to say the US is the greatest country in the world?  ::)

i guess you and your country have a great appreciation for double standards.

a) My list was stuff that is available in britain.

b) I meant britain has better bands.

When did i say you couldn't say that? Please don't put words in my mouth.

I guess you and your country have a great appreciation for making stuff up. WMD's anyone?

i've had more intelligent convos with my 2-year-old.

i say the U.S. is the greatest country in the world. you disagree. that's fine, kid. neither one of us knows what it's like to live in each other's country anyway.

but you have to admit, the U.S. sure does have alot of immigrants living here. alot of people in this world share my opinions.

no, answer my question. where did i deny you your opinion as you made out.

and there's no need to insult.

oh, and last year i spent three months living and working in kent conneticut and then a further 2 months in NYC, so don't be sure that i don't know what it's like to live in america.

check the rate of immigration in to britain before you start making claims on that front too.

Before you insult 2Na's intelligence, why don't you read what you wrote genius:


You weren't saying the U.S. is the greatest country in the world, you were saying the WORLD thinks the U.S. is the greatest country.  Really though, nice backtrack, I was impressed.

i think that 2nafish expressing what he prefers and likes about their country is certainly more appealing than you saying that other people are jealous of their country...the truth is the statistics speak for themselves, people prefer China to the USA, 5 years ago it was completely different...

GNRNightrain asks why people have lost disrespect for the USA...bullshit, lies, distrust, corruption, starting wars with other countries, a obsessive president who continually presses the word freedom yet has trouble with grammar and definition, politicians who try to make us believe that the US is pristine when its not true, and the US politicians manipulating other countries to do what they want, the media continuous pumping out bias...and people who are so gullible to believe all that shit

then you have some americans on this board going on about how great they are...it shows a lack of knowledge about,  and a lack of respect for, the rest of the world...despite this,  they still assume they know better...most people i know have respect for the achievements by individual proud americans and there are a hell of a lot of them...but as a nation, and as for your politics

"surrounded by bullshit smelling as roses"

sandman, one question

why the fuck do you HAVE to love your country ?
you were just born there.
just live your life. maybe you've been brainwashed when you were young, but here is a quick news: YOU DONT HAVE TO LOVE YOUR COUNTRY.

countries and nation dont mean anything anymore.
companies make money all over the world.
you're wearing clothes made 60000 miles away from you
people move
people travel

we're not in the middle age anymore. you're not gonna go to hell if you disagree with your country.

i'm french. i don't care about france. my girldfriend's american and ?i don't care about the us either.
i care about the people i know. i care about people in general, not about a country.

you make me think of these college student that wear their university tee shirt all the time, like they wanna tell the world : i am part of something.

thats what you are. you are afraid not to be part of something. so live by BEING an american, you're not sandman, you're AN AMERICAN, and your government can replace by another one because you are not a person, your ONE american.

peace :)
so just live your life, love the people you meet, do good things, dont kill people, and fuck your country. fuck your nation.

i said europe is jealous of the U.S. (i later said i was being sarcastic....tuna conveniently ignored that).

my point was that i believe the U.S. is the greatest nation, and i'm proud of it. and i believe some other nations strive to be like the U.S. in many ways (science, technology, athletics, etc.). at least i hope they do. just like the U.S. strives to be as good as england at soccer.

tuna replied with "there. That is the main reason that i prefer china over america."

so basically he was saying that he has mroe respect for china because some people in the U.S. believe we're the best and are not afraid to say it.

if the world was like that there would be no nations, no diverse people, we would all just be humans. Where the fun in watching the World Cup in that?

NIB you may have a point about the world cup ....  ;D
but come nations don't mean anything anymore

economy is global
pain and suffering is global
war is global

in a few decades politics will be global, and we'll say bye bye to the concept of nation.

but hey, if people love their nation that much, it's cool, we can use them as soldier and send them to kill and die for us.

im just saying: you DONT HAVE to love your country.

in another thread, 2nafish said the following:

"where you can get ahead if you work for it and are talented enough. the reality is pretty different."

anyone who truly knows and understands america, knows that this statement is false. and THAT's one of the many things i love about america. if you work hard, you will get ahead in life. the opportunities are so grand.

people assume that americans are brain-washed. i'm not sure why. my love for this country has little to do with politicians or political actions and decisions. it has to do with the people, the land, the activities, the social scenes, etc. etc.

in no way do i feel anyone HAS to love their country.

ibeg to differ. your country is what it is because of what the poliics do.
social life is mapped on what the rules/laws allows to do.
therefore you like the politics of your country.

and also i'm sure you don't even know 5% of your country, people or land.
you like your close environement, the one you know, and you think it's same everywhere. but no, people are very poor in the us, people are discriminated in your country, and you shouldnt like that.

people generaly take their close/known environement (their job, their salary, the people they know) and make it THE world.

wow, you have everything figured out. sadly, i think you're actually being serious. 

kids.  ::)

I always bring up this agument when i get into a debate about countries. If your bon in a country, it dosnt make you that nationality, its just makes you a citezen then. If you have a German guy born in Japan, is that guy automaticly Japanese or his he still German. Hes German with a Japanese citizenship.

Same thing with America. The only time one can be truely American is if they're like 7th generation and thier bloodline is completely lost. So in a sence, WAT-EVER has a point, but patritism is important, and it gives us individuality.

Justice Scalia recently came to my school.  During a question and answer session he started talking bout how the United States is different than other places in the sense that we are the only country that is measured by our ideals.  Is there any other country that has a term such as "unamerican."  Is there such thing as unbritish, unfrench, or ungerman?  We dont measure ourselves by race, skin color, or heritage.  We measure ourselves by our ideals.  I thought it was an interesting point, regardless if one agrees with our ideals or not.

In australia people often use the term "unaustralian". Or more conveniently, just say someone did something wrong you can say "that's just not cricket".  :hihi:

but seriously, for all these people that have said they prefer China over the US, i wonder if this preference extends so far that they'd prefer to live in China rather than the US. I can't imagine, even the US with all its flaws, that somebody would rather live in China.

It'd be interesting to see what they say then. If they favour China so much, and they had a choice between living in China or America, well they'd have to live in China or else they'd be contradicting themselves.

i also wanna say that i don't hate america. and people don't in general.
there's plenty fun stuff in the us.

but hardcore americans can't find the flaws in their country. but maybe thats why the us are doing pretty good (on the surface) because they have an army of sheep working for them.
thats why France can be fucked up sometimes, because we hate our country no matter how great it is, no matter what happens, we always find a way to criticize .... and i like it ;D

UnAmerican is a propaganda term at best. That is the only way I see it used.

That is how you use it. I see no other need for such a word. Probably why no other country uses it.? ::)

Right.

And nothing gets better by letting it run itself.

Being critical yields progress.

Being arrogant........well we see what that has brought us haven't we?

The term has been hijacked by those on the right.  Originally it had a different use.

Yourself included.

What was the original use?

Looks like your Australians aren't too crazy 'bout us either. :hihi:

My favorite quote from the article "
She said some students suffered culture shock because of the belief that everyone loved Americans".  :hihi:

Sounds like what some of the people here think.......



http://www.sundaytimes.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,7034,15734656%255E421,00.html



AMERICAN students are quitting Queensland universities in the face of hate attacks by Australians angry at US President George W. Bush and the war in Iraq.

One university has launched an investigation into claims an American student returned to the US after suffering six months of abuse at a residential college in Brisbane.

American students have told The Sunday Mail the verbal attacks are unbearable and threatening to escalate into physical violence.

Griffith University student Ian Wanner, 19, from Oregon, said abusive Australian students had repeatedly called him a "sepo" ? short for septic tank. "It is so disrespectful. It's not exactly the most welcoming atmosphere here," he said.

The Queensland Anti-Discrimination Commission has described the abuse as "horrible" and says it could be classed as racial vilification.

The abuse problem is so prevalent that US students are being given formal briefings before leaving home on how to cope with abusive Australians.

Mr Wanner said even female Australian students were verbally abusive. He warned the problem could "escalate into a very large brawl".

"There has already been confrontations between people," he said.

A female American student from Griffith, who wished to remain unnamed, said she had met some "exceptional" people in Australia ? but was leaving this month in shock over her treatment.

She said she was desperate to go home after the slurs, which also spilled over at pubs in central Brisbane.

"They basically picked on me," she said. "At first, I thought it was a joke. Then I just had it out with them and told them I came here to be treated respectfully.

"I have had a few incidents in bars. I had a guy and he heard my accent and he said: 'I hate your president. I hate your country.' "

Another Griffith student has already returned to the US after enduring six months of abuse at the university's residential college in Brisbane.

All the students received counselling before arriving and were warned of the backlash against the US.

They said they were advised not to carry any items that would identify their nationality.

A postgraduate American student at the University of Queensland's St Lucia campus, in Brisbane's west, has also complained to the Australian-American Association of being "persecuted" and subjected to "name-calling" by Australian students.

Another American studying at UQ said attitudes towards him were "scary".

"It's unbelievable," he said. "It's been war. People are scared. It is hard to be an American in Australia at the moment, it is really hard. It varies with different people, but you have to be quiet and try not to draw attention to yourself."

Australian-American Association state president Marylou Badeaux said anti-American sentiment had reached a climax over the war in Iraq.

She said attacks from the general public were mostly sedate ? but had grown into open hostility at several Queensland universities. In some cases, US students and academics were being "persecuted" for merely having an American accent.

"They are taking it out on people who may or may not agree but just because they have an American accent, they are being persecuted," she said.

Ms Badeaux said long-time US residents in Australia noticed attitudes towards them fluctuated with US Government policy. "It all depends on what the policies of the US government are at the time," she said.

Queensland Anti-Discrimination deputy commissioner Neroli Holmes said the alleged labelling of students as "sepos" could be classed as racial vilification under anti-discrimination laws.

Racial vilification included public comment which incited hatred, serious contempt or severe ridicule of a person or group based on race or nationality. "It sounds quite horrible," Ms Holmes said.

Griffith University spokeswoman Nicola Collier-Jackson said an investigation had been launched into the American abuse claims.

She said the university had a zero-tolerance policy to harassment.

"We don't accept it at all. We will investigate it. We need to get to the bottom of it," she said.

The Colorado-based Australearn organisation ? which teaches "cultural adjustment" to US students before they come to Australia ? started warning in January of attitudes towards Americans over Iraq.

Australearn's Australian director, Shelia Houston, said the briefings aimed to give American students "coping strategies" in the face of an attack.

She said some students suffered culture shock because of the belief that everyone loved Americans. "We are giving them the heads up that it is a bit more heated because of the war in Iraq," Ms Houston said.

you know, some Europeans are so insane that they claim without shame they prefer bin-laden and Saddam Hussein to Bush, Islamism dictatorships to America etc...
A large part of them comes from the extreme-left/left/green/communist parties.
I'm not American, I'm European, I don't like Bush but I don't agree either with the European strategy, or at least, the west-European one. I consider America not as an enemy, but as a  partner.

Not jealous.


Financially dependant and scared, yes.

Justg like in a couple, it can't work out long term; and if you try to force it, it ends in violence.

Hatred towards the US ?

No.

The US is one of the youngest nations of the planet. They never had ennemies as a nation, yet.

All these countries who sit around and talk shit about the US make me laugh.

We are equivolent to the police department

how many people say "Fuck I hate the cops, the cops are bastards, fuck the police"

but what happens when someone is breakin in their house or is after them, what do they do? "call the police"

Countries can talk bullshit all they want, that is fine, but when stupid shit like this starts goin around that they'd support a communist nation like China over us, that it is where I draw the line.

U dont agree with the war? fine, thats great, that is your right but U can't hate and judge a country or even a person on one thing and ignore the thousands? of great things that they do.

it just isnt right.

U let a European nation get attacked and I gurantee those people will be begging for our help. U think China would help?

People don't like us because we showed up........when nobody called us.

that doesnt matter

it isnt about whether the war on Iraq is a good thing or bad thing, that is irrelevant when it comes to bullshit like this.

If people hate America because of the War on Iraq that is obtuse and unacceptable.

We dont have to ask permission to do what we think is right, at the time it seemed right and reputable leaders from all around the world agreed with the war

now if they wanna try and save face now and hang us out to dry, that is fucked up.

Our country isnt perfect but how many other countries have the racial diversity we have? I wish when people wanna hate on us we would just close the fuckin books to the countries overseas, pull out of the UN and see how well some of those countries do on their own.

Its easy to be critical when terrorist arent trying to knock down your shit.

People around the world think the war is obtuse and unacceptable.

Yeah but that doesnt give someone a right to hate an entire country.


US does so many wonderful and great things for the world but because one incident we are the most evil,scumfilled country?

that shit aint right

Doesn't matter what we have to offer past , present, or future.

It matters what we are doing now.

That is the immediate thing they see: war, death, lies, war profiteering......a human tragedy that could have easily been avoided. If 50% voted for this goon, then they have a 50% chance of being right when they (verbally) attack American abroad.

No? ???? and how do you call manifestations with nazi symbols into American flags? or the unfamous though "the 9/11 it's a good thing that happened in their face" by persons like jos? bov? (beauf) or? Bigard (beauf)?
Americans, you've to know that during the 9/11, some people were HAPPY it happens. and not only in gaza, kaboul, Teheran or any other "non-civilized" places where people live in a retarded middle-age erea, but in P?ris, berlin and many other Europeans cities.
Don't get me wrong, a large part of people here were against the 9/11, but some of them (and not a that slim minority) though it was just "a good thing". Some of them believed in people who wrote books and made interviews to say the 9/11 "didn't happen" (neo-negationism?), or if it happened, it was the American governement who sent the planes on the towers (??), and to finish, because the responsibles seem to always be the jews, some of them said it was a "zionnist conspiration" (Dieudonn?) :hihi:

and that isn't called hatred?

you're really confused.
we're talking about america. don't bring the jews in the subject. they're not the focus here. leave them alone.
aslso, don't start with french celebrities / politics, people here have no clue what you're talking about.

also don't forget that NOT liking the country/government doesnt mean you hate the people, thats a complere different thing.

and D, the fact that the US did (and they did, and do) good things, doesnt matter. you don't let a murderer go because he hepled a old woman cross the street once.

Your country is often defined by the people who run it or the ones who are famous for being from your country.

For example: Sweden - ABBA, Sven Goran Eriksson, Bjorn Borg, Crazy Frog.....  :hihi:


When most people outside USA think of USA, what do they think of? It's not the working class in Michigan, the farmers in the midwest or the people in Alaska. It's your president and what an idiot he is.

Some might think of Tom Cruise at the moment, but a lot of people associate USA with the war in Iraq. A war many people disagree with, so it's not surprising they think USA just sucks.

A lot of people confuse criticizing George W. Bush with hating USA.




/jarmo

and stephen edberg.

so its you guys that have been responsible for that damn crazy frog!!!!!!!!!!!!! :rant:

oh boy.............i'll make sure the next time i meet a swedish person i'll be sure to mention this. I will say "i disagree with everything that crazy frog stands for, and because he is from your country..........i can say i hate you.........yes thats right.........you.......i hate you!" :rofl:

the survey said "prefer" not "hate" btw

there are several people here with a very serious case of persecution complex.

They automatically assume that they are the most hated nation on earth because people prefer another country to theirs.

Nesquick, you keep my hope alive.

Well, look at the country you prefer to us.  Its not like you said you preferred Canada over us.  That I could understand.

Sometimes you can't blame the country. I dont mean to bring 'em up again but almost everybody hates the Jews, and the use thier getting their asses kicked all the time as a crutch.

yes, but with the exception of it's government i think that china is an amazing place. The view of china in the states is obviously going to low as chinese is "communist". In britain we have communist-like parties that take a marginal vote at election so china's government isn't that much of a problem to europeans.

Whereas america is supposed to be the most pure form of democracy and presents itself self as wholesome (like a Coca-Cola commercial). It's expected for china to have a shitty human rights record, its the destruction of an illusion when america does something "wrong".

Well, Communism is just one of many things that are wrong with China.  China is a cool place, and I like the people there also.  But as is pretty evident from this thread, we are speaking in terms of government and actions by the government.  Maybe you do agree with China on more stuff than you do us.  To me, that speaks volumes about who we should consult when we make out decisions.

Fair enough, I understand that we might not be meeting the expectations.  However, that is not a reason to prefer a country with poor human rights over us?  That isnt very good logic if you ask me.  Do you also prefer Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Cuba, and other countries over us as well? 

people (americans ? ) generaly confuse communism with dictatorship.
they're on two different level.

communism is how you rule the econmy of a country. not about the freedom.
communism HAS NEVER EXISTED. it's impossible to set up because people are dumb.

so by saying "communism" is a problem, you want to say dictatorship / non-democratic countries are a problem.

communism can be compared with capitalism.
democracy can be compared with dictatorship.

because china is FAAAAARRRR from being a communist country. china is Helluva capitalist country: proof ? < you don't even imagine how much big multinational companies love the way China sees business.
china is even more capitalist than the us. it's all about money and growth.


and really. western countries are almost decadent.

People get angry and upset when bombs are dropped on people and young men and women are marched off to war. If they feel it is unjust, even more so.

Bush is not very handy to people around the world to voice their opinion. But Americans are at an arms length most times. I am not condoning attacking anybody, but people are angry over this bogus war. The Americans traveling, or living abroad are the closest thing these people can get to.

Right.........

And that is not a wake up call for you, over this war?

That people look on it that badly, that they prefer THAT over America?

Get it?

I'm not the only one who doesn't like hypocrites.

I want out of this war now also.? Bush never had a chance to succeed in this war, not when so many of his own people wanted him to fail.? Its too late to be successful there, I think we should bring our kids home.? We lost this war in PR a long time ago.? Certainly, the fault falls on the President and those that sought to make this whole war political.  Ted Kennedy, Howard Dean etc have achieved their goal, Iraq has turned into a quasi-Vietnam.

Besides, Canada is much closer politically to Europe.? Thats fine, and that is why it wouldnt surprise me to see numbers showing that they liked Canada more than the US.? But China?? Isnt that a wake up call for you at all, that people would prefer a country that kills its own people over ours?? Certainly I understand the backlash about the war.? However, the war has warped so many minds to the point that we have Europeans preferring China to the US, and we have certain US citizens boycotting French goods or hating France.? I think the propoganda on both sides has to stop.? Its not one side or the other, its both sides.? Both Europe and the US are acting like Children over the dispute over the war.? Considering our past and how much I love Europe, it is really sad to see.

see Nightrain, you're making sense now :)
> Both Europe and the US are acting like Children < SO TRUE.

I agree too.

children rarely voice their opinions on such matters and voicing opinions over whether a war is justified etc is certainly not childish

it was the americas government's actions that gave rise to the results of this poll yet you turn it around and try to blame europeans for changing their opinions on their preferred country and no you try to equalise the blame...

i am one of those that doesnt prefer China over the USA, but there are plenty of other countries i prefer over the USA...people can live in ignorance over China's human rights abuses including the continuous subjugation of Tibet but I wont choose them, in fact they are pretty much near the bottom of my list

i think canada is a great place. i'll probably live there for a while after i finish university.

Indeed!!!

Why can the finger never point back?

Ever think that attitude helps put us under China ?

That is clearly not what I meant. ?Saying that you prefer a communist country that kills its own people over the US is in my opinion childish, just as boycotting French goods is. ?Disagreeing with the war certainly is not childish. ?Some of the things that have been done or said because of the disagreement were childish.

That is exactly why the dispute continues, neither side is willing to say that they acted childish at all. ?Im not saying that Europeans dont have a right to view the US less favorably than they did before. ?Certainly there are reasons why they might do so. ?However, I think it has gone a little too far when they prefer China to the US. ?To me that is not looking at things rationally. ?You must admit the results of that poll cant be based on an objective look at both countries, it is more based on the passion and division over this war. ?

That is exactly my point. ?I dont expect the US to be #1, #20, or even #50 on the list of the most favorable countries viewed by Europeans right now. ?But you understand that choosing China over the US is absolutely ludicrous. ?I think no person thinking rationally and objectively over the matter would come to that conclusion. ?Of course, that is just my opinion. ?I just thought it was such a slap in the face. ?While there are many European countries that I disagree with and arent at the top of my list, I wouldnt choose Saudi Arabai over them just because I disagree with their actions on the war or as part of the Oil for foods scandal. ?

Can't go wrong with Canada.

Any group of people who wear socks with their sandals are ok with me! ;D

I was under the impression that I did a fair amount of finger pointing at us.?

U cant hate the US because of the president but love China cause of the people.

thats a total contradiction.

the people in the US for the most part are nothing like the president.

If any of you came where I lived you would leave thinking "those are the nicest people you will ever meet"

where im from there is very little racial tension, everyone gets a long and everyone helps their neighbor, we sleep with the doors unlocked and I can leave my keys in my car overnight with no worries.

Dont judge our country by one idiot running it.

Dont judge our country by one idiot running it.

Dude, you are going to have to get over that hump and realize the war has put us in a certain column right now. There is no getting around it. People around the world are angry, and the heat is going to come down. It doesn't matter if it makes sense or not. People feel strongly about things like war and will protest anyway they feel they can. Again, when people see Americans, they see that as enough of an extension of our government to blast them.

I can leave my keys in my car overnight with no worries.

What's that address?? :hihi:

we have to say we acted childishly because we voted in a single poll that put China ahead of the USA? i think youve got plenty to feel childish about, freedom fries, boycott of foods, most of the major comedians making fun of the europeans in their high profile shows and more...and youre looking from an apology from us? you amuse me dude

Your just jelous because you can't take the strength of the beer  :P

My gosh Q, you keep posting things I did not say.  I said that freedom fries and boycotts were childish.  Furthermore, I never asked for an apology from anyone.  I think your looking for a dispute for me just have a dispute.  From the substance of your previous post I dont think we disagree on this issue that much. 

i was talking in general, my comments werent really aimed at you specifically :P

huh?

You can't go wrong with Canadian beer  ;D

This is going to sound weird/stupid, but I think Europeans are favorable towards the Chineese because they fear them more.  My country (U.S.) hasn't been a... a threatining giant if we don't get our way country, like it was after WW2.  Everybody (except for the Soviets)  feared the U.S because of our nuclear weponary and appeased us the best they could. Now that the advantage of nuclear wepons are gone (since everybody has them), the biggest "threat" would be Chineese.  A billion people is alot of people, so nobody wants to anger them, so they are more...prefered to the chineese.

Oh, and please don't give me crap about
 
The war on terror is a completelty differnent idea. 

haha.

Yea, it couldn't be because people around the world dislike our "war on terror" in Iraq. They must be scared of China.... :o Wake up dude!

It's a "different" idea alright: Attack a country that did not attack you on 9-11.

You ain't serious are you ?

Nesquick has, most of the time, the most paranoid views on the french society. According to him we are doomed because 10 millions muslims live in France ... ( whereas there are not 10 millions at all ... 5 millions and just a minority actually goes to the mosquees). He just love to be afraid of something. And describing how the french reacted to 9/11 as he just did makes me sick ... because I was at work when it happened and we were all watching the news channel and most of us were just crying in disbelief. And at the time? 99.999 % were behind G W Bush ... the fall's begun w/ the idiotic comments like "you're with us or against us" bullshit ...

And for the chinese matter ... I still think europeans don't judge China and the USA on the same standards ... I'm waiting for more of my relation with my brother - a democratic country with the same values -? than the one with the neighbor accross the street that beats his wife - a communist dictatorship- ! But when my brother in my eyes doesn't comply with the values we share it's somewhat treason - while my neighbor remains the same ...
For me it just makes sense. Right now europeans are just pissed of.

serious? I think he is because it's been a while since GnRnightrain and I agree on lots of things.

I spoke about Europe. I think there is a problem in Europe, it's not specific to France. Bush is as responsible as our Europeans governments of that situation. Bush is arrogant, our European governements just don't understand anything.

1) right. my brother was in Barbes in car, he saw people there having fun on the 9/11. I saw and heard myself young surbubs teenagers in the underground screaming how happy they seemed to be. Lots of them still see bin-laden as their hero.? paranoid or realistic?
2) you don't represent people I was refering to. Never ever. Don't take everything I say for yourself. You are not concerned.
3) right I like a lot beeing afraid of something. Sure. When I wake-up the morning I say "today I'd like to be afraid of something". It's a fantastic feeling. lovetobeafraidofsomething.com, coming soon. ;)

I agree on that point.

Take it easy? :smoking:

yeah young suburbs teens, thats your source and reference. nice analysis of the french society.

I'm taking it really easy nesquick ... sometimes you're just putting out clich?s that's what annoys me ! Of course we have our problems here ... 10 % unemployement rate ... racism ... suburbs teens ... put as WAT-EVER put suburbs teens don't represent the french society ... It's a problem here but it's not specific to France. There always be people that happy two planes crashed on the WTC ... it's not a french or arab speciality ... you'd be amazed of what I heard the last time I went to Brazil. Stupid people have no nationalities.

And I don't have a problem w/ you at all, it's just sometimes your radical views on the french society drive me crazy ;) !

What I wanted to do in this thread is to explain to NT the result of the poll and why it's not so tragic not  talk once again about 9/11 and how young teens in the suburbs were delighted when 3500 people die.

its kinda funny how people see the government as a reflection of the population in general. i guess thats why so many people "hate" america. however, i doubt the majority of europeans could seriously support a communist regime, especially looking at the conflict in eastern europe last century.

its true though that the american culture is very different from one of europe. when i went to san fran a couple of years ago (the "least-american american city") it was really noticable how loud and yes, kind of annoying some of the people were, certainly worse than anything you'd encounter in manchester, uk (where i live), or anywhere else ive been (australia, singapore, bali, france, germany, italy, holland, hungary, spain etc).

i have several friends from hong kong whos parents have emigrated, but i doubt they represent china itself. their parents are strict and hard working, but they are extremely lazy. i doubt they would get away with that "back home".

and as to america being racist and china not, it is only because america welcomes so many cultures that there is conflict. china is not willing to accept other cultures, so the people cannot express racial hatred.

america has its faults, but id choose george bush over dictatorship any day

i get what your saying, but you'd rather support a power-hungry warlord than a dictator?

I'd go for a benevolant dictator over a democracy. People are idiots.

thats what im saying. id rather follow someone who cares for his country than some idiot who starts wars for no reason.

We attacked Afghanistan and Iraq because their "governments" supported the terrorists that planned the terrorists attacks of 9-11 (that statement relates more to Afghanistan).   We also attacked Iraq to free the Iraqi people (who if u dont believe were victimized by the Saddam regime, you're fucking crazy) and prevent/stop the production of weapons of mass destruction.

The Chineese are growing more and more powerful everyday.  How many countries have opposed China compared those who have went/spoke out against the U.S.? 



Sounds like my man George Bush. : ok:

He cares only about Texas and the nice young people willing to die for oil profits

"There are not going to be any timetables. Why would you say to the enemy, you know, 'Here's a timetable; just go ahead and wait us out?'"
- PRESIDENT BUSH, on calls for a schedule to move troops out of Iraq.

If Iraq is turning into a quasi-Vietnam it's because someone refuses to set a timetable for exiting the country.  And that someone is not Howard Dean.  All your anti-Bush comments have me wondering who the Right is going to anoint as their new man now that the Prez is all washed up. 


Has Bush (or the people who think for him) given any thoughts to the Chinese bid for Unocal yet? It's not going to matter who wins the PR game with the Europeans (us or China) if China wins the Big Bucks game.

June 27, 2005
The Chinese Challenge
By PAUL KRUGMAN - New York Times

Fifteen years ago, when Japanese companies were busily buying up chunks of corporate America, I was one of those urging Americans not to panic. You might therefore expect me to offer similar soothing words now that the Chinese are doing the same thing. But the Chinese challenge - highlighted by the bids for Maytag and Unocal - looks a lot more serious than the Japanese challenge ever did.

There's nothing shocking per se about the fact that Chinese buyers are now seeking control over some American companies. After all, there's no natural law that says Americans will always be in charge. Power usually ends up in the hands of those who hold the purse strings. America, which imports far more than it exports, has been living for years on borrowed funds, and lately China has been buying many of our I.O.U.'s.

Until now, the Chinese have mainly invested in U.S. government bonds. But bonds yield neither a high rate of return nor control over how the money is spent. The only reason for China to acquire lots of U.S. bonds is for protection against currency speculators - and at this point China's reserves of dollars are so large that a speculative attack on the dollar looks far more likely than a speculative attack on the yuan.

So it was predictable that, sooner or later, the Chinese would stop buying so many dollar bonds. Either they would stop buying American I.O.U.'s altogether, causing a plunge in the dollar, or they would stop being satisfied with the role of passive financiers, and demand the power that comes with ownership. And we should be relieved that at least for now the Chinese aren't dumping their dollars; they're using them to buy American companies.

Yet there are two reasons that Chinese investment in America seems different from Japanese investment 15 years ago.

One difference is that, judging from early indications, the Chinese won't squander their money as badly as the Japanese did.

The Japanese, back in the day, tended to go for prestige investments - Rockefeller Center, movie studios - that transferred lots of money to the American sellers, but never generated much return for the buyers. The result was, in effect, a subsidy to the United States.

The Chinese seem shrewder than that. Although Maytag is a piece of American business history, it isn't a prestige buy for Haier, the Chinese appliance manufacturer. Instead, it's a reasonable way to acquire a brand name and a distribution network to serve Haier's growing manufacturing capability.

That doesn't mean that America will lose from the deal. Maytag's stockholders will gain, and the company will probably shed fewer American workers under Chinese ownership than it would have otherwise. Still, the deal won't be as one-sided as the deals with the Japanese often were.

The more important difference from Japan's investment is that China, unlike Japan, really does seem to be emerging as America's strategic rival and a competitor for scarce resources - which makes last week's other big Chinese offer more than just a business proposition.

The China National Offshore Oil Corporation, a company that is 70 percent owned by the Chinese government, is seeking to acquire control of Unocal, an energy company with global reach. In particular, Unocal has a history - oddly ignored in much reporting on the Chinese offer - of doing business with problematic regimes in difficult places, including the Burmese junta and the Taliban. One indication of Unocal's reach: Zalmay Khalilzad, who was U.S. ambassador to Afghanistan for 18 months and was just confirmed as ambassador to Iraq, was a Unocal consultant.

Unocal sounds, in other words, like exactly the kind of company the Chinese government might want to control if it envisions a sort of "great game" in which major economic powers scramble for access to far-flung oil and natural gas reserves. (Buying a company is a lot cheaper, in lives and money, than invading an oil-producing country.) So the Unocal story gains extra resonance from the latest surge in oil prices.

If it were up to me, I'd block the Chinese bid for Unocal. But it would be a lot easier to take that position if the United States weren't so dependent on China right now, not just to buy our I.O.U.'s, but to help us deal with North Korea now that our military is bogged down in Iraq.

---

this poll should have asked the question this way...

"if you had to choose to live in either america or china, which would it be?"

i think we all know the results would have been greatly different.  :hihi:

yes, but that would make the poll completely pointless.

why, because the results would not be negtive towards the U.S.?

i think the whole world already knows that europeans do not have a favorable view of america right now. so what did this poll actually tell us??? nothing.

Certainly they many dont have a favorable view, but putting us below China was something that came as a shock to me.

why, because the results would not be negtive towards the U.S.?


no because if you changed the question, you changed the answer, then you just happened to get the result you want...typical of american and more recently british politics

my point is that i don't believe the people participating in this poll were being honest. proven by the fact that if anyone in europe was forced to choose to live in either china or the U.S., i think we all know where they would choose.

i think you could put the U.S. up against any nation in the world and europeans would choose the other nation. so again, what's this poll really telling us? nothing.

how about this....IMO, a more interesting question would be:

"on a scale from 1-10, what's your favorability of the U.S.?"

what would be the average score of that question? 2? 0? 5? i believe there's some doubt as to what the answer would be. therefore, that's a little more interesting.
 
trust me, cuz, i don't care an ounce about polls in europe coming out favorable to the U.S.

im not sure thats true...are you making up these facts?...where are your sources?




i dont think thats true, it depends on the question


so do you know what questions were asked in this poll? i get the impression you do

for someone that doesnt care much about this thread, you sure have posted a lot here

if europeans chose CHINA over the U.S., i think it's a far assumption that they would have chose ANY nation over the U.S.  You must not know much about china.

and i never said i don't care about this thread or the poll. you should read my posts a little more carefully if you're gonna take the time to respond to them.  ::)

you accused me of wanting the poll to come out favorable to the U.S., which simply is of no concern to me at all.

im not sure what youre on about

i never accused you of anything...i only asked for sources...

i know enough about China not to like them over the US

I don't believe that americans and US goverments are one and the same. So you can't blame the american people for their goverments' actions. There are two parties always and americans vote the dumb or the dumbest each time. I respect that the americans still have ideals and I like the fact they believe that the succes comes from the effort (e.g. unlike Germans who think that there's mother wit). I don't dare to think what's going to happen if China will be expanded in every section of life. I don't know a lot about China but as a European, America seems more close to me (not in the military aims though).