Here Today... Gone To Hell!

Now, don't this just beat all. I leave, and all the gayness begins. Oh...times are a changin. Where are all the Mormon GnR fans going to move to when all the sinners take over?? :hihi:

Anyway...it sounds like all the gays there want to stay for the same reaons I like SLC. Them cool mountains.......... and if it can piss off the MoMos...even better!

Whoda thunk?

************

SALT LAKE CITY - David Johnson stopped believing in the Mormon church about three years ago, when he came out of the closet after returning home from a proselytizing mission in Thailand.

At 24, he is ignoring strict principles of a church that teaches that homosexuality is a serious sin by living the life of a gay man.

He has moved away from his parents' home in southern Utah ? his father, a devout member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, has little to do with him ? but he hasn't moved as far as you might imagine.

He chooses to live here, in the capital of one of the nation's most conservative states, which is shadowed by the worldwide headquarters of a church that suffuses nearly every aspect of life in Utah. The Mormon church, one of the world's fastest growing faiths with about 12 million members worldwide, won't accept homosexuals until they are spiritually rehabilitated.

"It's not that I'm angry with the church. I understand that they don't understand," Johnson said. "I would rather spend my energy elsewhere on something I can actually change."

During the Pride Week Festival that runs through Sunday, plenty of people like Johnson are gathering around Salt Lake City ? a yearly reminder of just how large the gay community here has become. It culminates Sunday with a parade that organizers say is the second largest in the state, behind the annual July 24 "Days of '47" parade commemorating the Mormon settlement of the Salt Lake Valley.

A Mormon church spokeswoman declined to comment on Pride Week, instead referring a reporter to previous church statements on homosexuality in general. They read, in part: "We realize there may be great loneliness in their lives but there must also be recognition of what is right before the Lord."

Figures on Salt Lake City's gay population are hard to come by. Leaders of many of the city's advocacy groups don't even venture a guess.

The latest census did not request information about sexual orientation, but did tally 594,391 same-sex couples living together nationwide, with 3,370 of them in Utah. Gay advocates have estimated those numbers undercount the population by as much as 50 percent, because it only counts homosexuals who are in a live-in relationship and admit that to census officials.

Urban Institute demographer Gary Gates and researcher Jason Ost, authors of The Gay and Lesbian Atlas, estimate Salt Lake City to be in the top 6 percent of cities where gay and lesbian couples were likely to live.

"Clearly, Salt Lake City has a high concentration," Gates told The Associated Press.

Many gays and lesbians in Utah are former Mormons who grew up in the area and don't want to leave ? despite a political system that just passed one of the country's most restrictive amendments banning gay marriage. Others migrated from equally conservative nearby states like Idaho and Wyoming, which have no high-concentration gay areas of their own.

Many of Salt Lake's gays and lesbians don't want to abandon the style of Western living they grew up with, said Michael Mitchell, executive director of the advocacy group Equality Utah. The pace of life is generally slow, and nearby mountain ranges full of ski runs and hiking trails provide abundant opportunities for enjoying nature while still living in an urban area.

Other benefits like affordability and a relatively low crime rate are enough for some people to justify staying, he said.

Besides, Mitchell notes, "the next big city is Denver, eight hours one way, and Las Vegas, five hours the other way."

The decision for gays and lesbians to stay in Utah can be complicated, especially since the Mormon church is as much a culture as a faith, but Johnson said he's been able to negotiate his own set of beliefs.

"Some of their core values I really like," he says of the church, "but some of their extenuating guidelines and morals, they just don't work for me."

say it loud, i'm mormon and proud.

"Some of their core values I really like," he says of the church, "but some of their extenuating guidelines and morals, they just don't work for me."

This is the best quote to end the article because it shows how wrong this "pride" is. First they start questioning this, and then they start questioning other values, like a slippery slope. Churchs have split so many times in history because of divisions over what should be obvious indisputable dogma.

Of course, with polygamy so popular, it isn't surprising many men have to resort to other options. ;) (jk!)

As I live in Utah, am Mormon (hence my dislike for SLCPUNK), and have two gay brothers, I think I can comment on this.

Don't mistake individuals choosing to leave the Church because the doctrine doesn't "jive" with their lifestyle as anything resembling a "split" in the Church itself.

The Church has always gone out of it's way to help and work with any of it's members who want it.? But that has never met it will change its doctrine, for as you said, it is indisputable.

For those who have attempted to "buck the system" and change doctrine in the past, let's just say the hammer drops pretty quickly.

(And while I can laugh at a good polygamy joke as much as the next guy, plural marriage was officially disbanded by the Church over 115 years ago.? Just for the record....? ;)? )

bah...whatever...you love who you love regardless of religion...go gay mormons ;D

See if you can figure out the message here..... : ok:



9 As soon then as they were come to land, they saw a fire of coals there, and fish laid thereon, and bread.

10 Jesus saith unto them, Bring of the fish which ye have now caught.

11 Simon Peter went up, and drew the net to land full of great fishes, an hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken.

12 Jesus saith unto them, Come and dine. And none of the disciples durst ask him, Who art thou? knowing that it was the Lord.

13 Jesus then cometh, and taketh bread, and giveth them, and fish likewise.

14 This is now the third time that Jesus shewed himself to his disciples, after that he was risen from the dead.

15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these?
(John 21:9-15)

Is that from the Book Of Mormon?

^^ hope they had lube :rofl:

No, it's from the Bible.  John 21:9-15

Ya know, that's something I'd expect from a lot of people here, including the originator of this thread.

I mean, there's funny and than there's just plain sacrilege.

Congradulations.

 :P

just trying to lighten the situation dude, no harm intended..although I am totally pro-choice in everyway.....do you have an AOV there? :rofl:...personally I think sexual preferance has no relationship to spirituality, relax

p.s.... *congratulations ;)

You don't have to love the sin, but you should always love the sinner. If you judge people, you'll keep them at a distance from your heart.

I don't knock any religions or lifestyles. When it comes down to it, we're all people, and we all need love.

Journey...I applaud you...well said  ;)

Agreed.....for the most part.

Ironically, I find it much easier to "tolerate" my two gay brothers than a certain guy who has enjoyed the benefits of living in a beautiful and safe state in the past - thanks in no small part to the local religious majority he loves to "piss off." ?

Pfffffffft, beat this:

http://www.cbc.ca/story/canada/national/2005/06/14/militarygaywedding0614.html

LV Nevada actually has less crime and less pollution then SLC. The locals also keep the RE values from getting to high, which I like. If the MoMo's didn't run that state, it would be 3 times as expensive to live there. I can assure you of that.

You "tolerate" your brothers...who sweet of you.

All the gay people I knew in Utah were banished from their family for who they were.

I knew plenty of Mormons in Utah. Most were suspicious, judgemental and would turn their back on a family member in a minute if they didn't fall in line. How strange it is to be so right, that you can even treat family with a heavy hand.

I never understood why Mormons turned their wine glasses upside down at restaurants. I figured, if you don't drink, just don't drink. The reason was that they were afraid somebody else would see those glasses sitting upright and it would get reported back to their ward (church). They all look over each others fences keeping check on one another.  ::)

In the end, people are people. People are gay in the Mormon culture too. I thought the article was interesting, since I understand the "us against them" culture that exists out there.

hahaha ya welcome to canada..... gay and proud.. lol

While Mormons are aware that Salt Lake will become among the most wicked of cities in times to come, I think it's a stretch to say Las Vegas has less crime and pollution.? Besides, there is a huge Mormon presence in Nevada.? And for the record, the fact that Utah is dominated by Mormons hasn't stopped people from moving here.? You should know that.


I say "tolerate" because that's the word that gets thrown around so often.? Truth be told, I love my brothers but I tolerate your sorry butt.


I knew some people that happened to.? Their families were wrong for what they did and the day will come when they'll answer for it.? However, while they are too far one way, you're too far the other.? While "hating the sin" they forgot to "love the sinner."? You'd have them embrace it.? Both extremes are wrong and, in the end, you are no more justified than they.


Please.? I honestly doubt you, of all people, really knew "plenty" of Mormons, what with your outspoken opinions and irreverent attitude towards anyone religious.?


LOL!? You know, everytime I think I've heard all the stories about us there's a new one that pops up.? You may have also heard that we have horns too.? You believe that as well?? Personally, in my entire life as a Mormon, I have never known anyone turn their wine glasses over at a resturaunt for fear of being told on.? My guess, if and when it's ever happened, is so the waiter/waitress will know they don't want any or any other servers won't come along again and again and fill the glasses up like they do.? I think you're a little off-base abut the whole backyard fence thing too.? I will say that Mormon communities are more close and tightknit than most.? But few, if anybody, is on some mission to rat on their neighbors.?


Let's just remember the Mormons came to Utah (escaping persecution) and built the state out of nothing.? Nowdays, people like yourself come to Utah and say "Wow, what a beautiful state.? Too bad about all these damn Mormons."?

Last but not least - not to steal your thunder SLCPUNK - but the gay pride parade has been here for a few years now.? It's officially called the "human rights" parade though.? And for a guy who supposedly is married with a kid, you sure seemed to get excited about stuff like gay parades, bars, etc.?

anit-gay and proud. i support the church and thier teachings. seriously, since when was gayness such a big issue, why bring it up now?

It goes something like this -


First they wanted "awareness."?

Then they wanted "toleration."

Then they wanted "acceptance."

And now they want "celebration."


It's not enough anymore for people who believe homosexuality is morally wrong to be tolerant of the person while not condoning what they consider a sin.? If you don't accept and celebrate the lifestyle, you're labeled as a "religious bigot," "jesus freak," etc. etc.

Ironic isn't it?

i dont hate gay people, i just condemn the gay weddings.

If you truly love the sinner, you'll tell them they're going to burn in hell if they don't repent. If you love them, tell them the truth.

Except that approach never wins over anyone, does it?

Remember Jesus' response when asked why he ate with publicans and sinners....

"They that are whole need not a physician, but they that are sick."

Yes, the truth is the truth, but there are many ways of bringing people to it.
 

i didnt read the whole thread, but havent we had enough of the gay pride in this country?i mean really, whats the big deal. its all been done before, its old news. your gay, who cares. maybe all the heterosexuals should get together and throw a parade about being strait, and talk about how great that is.

Oh...that is how it went?  :o

I think gay people want what most everybody wants: To live a decent life and not be treated unequal.

The gays in the streets marching in the parades make up a tiny amount of the gay population.

That is like claiming the people you see at Mardi Gras, drunk and fucking in the street, represent all the straight people.

Nobody is asking anybody to celebrate anything, but rather to be treated AS AN EQUAL and live a good life as we are allowed in this great country.

You are called a Jesus freak because you are a hypocrite, and you use the bible to back up your bullshit. Being a bigot is one of them. You dimiss other things in the bible and only apply what you think is right for you. Of course people are going to call you on your hypocrisy.

To find love is a gift... in what ever form it may come, for not all are so lucky to have known love in their life. 

A homosexual individual should be free to love, just as a heterosexual individual should be free to love. 

and... I'd rather be gay than mormon.   :hihi:

1) Yes and that is what America is about: Freedom

2) Funny!

not all gay people were bad. lookit Halford and Mercury  :yes:

Ever heard the old saying "hypocrisy is the homage vice pays to virtue?" ?It certainly applies to you.

You think if religious people aren't perfect than they should never espouse any ideals. ?That's where you get things all turned around.

Religious people, especially Christians, know they are not perfect. ?That's where the need for a Savior comes in. ?There has only been one perfect person to walk this earth. ?Everybody is a hypocrite to some extent because everybody is human.

As far as the Bible goes, I've never dismissed anything in it because I don't need too. ?It stands as it's own witness and was around long before you or I.

And if you really knew anything about Mormons (which you ridiculously claim too) you'd know we don't depend soley on ancient scripture.

But in the end - when it comes to you - this and anything else regarding religion and spirituality truly is like "throwing pearls before swine."

Interestingly, Judas Priest started to surge in popularity after Killing Machine came out, their first album with (by today's standards) obviously gay lyrics. I think lots of Judas Priest fans just haven't come out of the closet yet.  :hihi: I'm one of the rare people who like the early Priest era more than the leather and spikes era.

So you  don't dismiss murder, or slavery in the bible. You said it stand on it's on.

You claim not to be perfect....but the problem I have with you is that you preach to everybody, like you feel you have the right to. The bible condradicts itself!! Anybody who can hold a book as the truth, which condradicts itself, is an idiot.

I know plenty about the Mormon religion. More than most of them do. They know very little about the history of their OWN CHURCH. You are the same way. You weren't aware that early Christians believed in reincarnation until I said so. Then you back tracked and changed the wording in your argument to save face.

I must ask you...You are so religious, yet here you are on a GnR board. Is there not some hypocrisy in this? I mean, these guys talked about drug use, sex, and any other sleazy things you can imagine. Yet here you are on this board.

it's the new 'crazy free' mormon sect :rofl:

Seems you do as much preaching as I do around here my friend.? You just do it under a different banner.



No, you only know what you've heard.? There's a difference.? Seriously dude, politics is one thing, but you're over your head here.


Um....no, I came at it in the strictest sense, in that reincarnation is not and never was a doctrine of Christianity.? If anything, it's a perversion of the true doctrine of resurrection.?

At the same time, I also believe that the early Christian church apostatized relatively soon after the apostles were killed.? After that, a whole host of practices, rites, beliefs, etc. were adopted.? Certainly reincarnation could have been among those.

You see it as anyone practicing something under the name of "Christianity" must mean it is a part of it.? Not the case.



Believe it or not, I'm not one to "wear my religion on my sleeve."? Very far from "holier than thou."? That is, unless I'm provoked.?

I read your humanist, secularist, wishy-washy nonsense on this board for a LONG time before bringing out the religion card.

As for about the only thing you and I have in common - Guns N' Roses - yeah there might be some hyprocrisy there.

Nevertheless, good music is good music.

Yes, my preaching includes: acceptance, non-violence, treating all people equal, not judging others, living an honest life, and to practice what you preach (not being hypocrite).

You can try to turn it around all you would like, but you use religion as a mask for bigotry, hate, and to judge other people.

I also notice how you avoid the subject of the bible contradicting itself when it is pointed out to you, and just point the finger out instead.

No, you only know what you've heard.  There's a difference.  Seriously dude, politics is one thing, but you're over your head here.

I know what I have read and what I have lived. How, may I ask, do you know what I do or do not know? Please enlighten me to the ways of the LDS church, and I will respond in kind.

And...you should know that LDS is NOT Christianity, no matter how you try to portray it, it is not. In fact to call it such is an insult to true Christians.

Um....no, I came at it in the strictest sense, in that reincarnation is not and never was a doctrine of Christianity.  If anything, it's a perversion of the true doctrine of resurrection. 

I will not rehash this with you. It was dealt with in another thread. Re-read that, and see how you back stepped right out of that one.

Believe it or not, I'm not one to "wear my religion on my sleeve."  Very far from "holier than thou."

You could have fooled most of the people on this board then.

As for about the only thing you and I have in common - Guns N' Roses - yeah there might be some hyprocrisy there.

So you can preach one way, yet live another.

If the shoe fits.....

Yea, in SLC they have 'drive by baptisms.'

I find it quite ironic SLC that you are so quick to jump up and bash the Mormans, yet you start threads and post continuously about the plight of the Islamic fundamentalists.  Why dont you start a thread about the intolerance of the Islam religion.  They are far more intolerant than any Christian religion that you find so necessary to endlessly bash on this board.

Something tells me you wouldnt complain if a Bible was flushed down the toilet.

We Mormons are quite accustomed to being accused of not being "real Christians".

Usually it comes from the maintream Christiandom; the various protestant churches mainly, and the Catholic church to a lesser degree.

But this coming from a guy who doesn't even believe in Jesus Christ as the Messiah, I must say, is pretty rich.

I said the same thing about how SLCPUNK wouldn't say anything if a Bible was mistreated a while back.

Don't expect him to say anything about Islam.? With him and his fellow liberals, it's a double standard.? And it's not so much they are friendly to Muslims, so to speak, but rather to anyone who fights with Christians.

it is such a big issue it's thrown in your face contstantly.. be gay do your thing just don't show off every second...  it's like the fucking parades in nyc, why can't the gays just march as people, I don't go to a parade with the straight section to march as an individual..
Be who you are just don't push it in everyone's face I hate all extremes from gay pride flamboyance to religious cooks

We Mormons are quite accustomed to being accused of not being "real Christians".

Because you are not.

Usually it comes from the maintream Christiandom; the various protestant churches mainly, and the Catholic church to a lesser degree.

I don't know any Christian group that is not insulted by Mormons calling themselves "Christian".

You believe that God came down and got the Virgin Mary pregnant. That Jesus came to America, after he talked to his homeboys the Holy land after the resurrection. I mean...what a load of poo. It's rather funny, the golden tablets that only Smith and his buddies (mostly family members) witnessed. Historians have torn holes in the book of Mormon rather easily. Smith died in jail, as he should have, he was a thief and liar. The only reason Young stopped was because he fell ill with a STD.

They also believe that they will become God Like when they die, which by it's very connotatioin implies a polytheistic religion, which by definition is NON-CHRISTIAN.

Don't expect him to say anything about Islam.  With him and his fellow liberals, it's a double standard.  And it's not so much they are friendly to Muslims, so to speak, but rather to anyone who fights with Christians.

Again, you point the finger out when you fail. Nobody is attacking Christianity, but rather your bigotry, judgemental nature, and hypocrisy....and the fact that you use the bible and religion to ok these actions.

I find it quite ironic SLC that you are so quick to jump up and bash the Mormans, yet you start threads and post continuously about the plight of the Islamic fundamentalists.

Interesting. When have I done this?

You think because I ask the USA not to hold themselves to a higher standard (not torture), as we claim to be, that I am protecting Islamic fundamentalists? Is that what you are drawing your conclusion from? Quite a stretch, I'll give to ya, but not suprising. Cheap shots are your specialty.

If you want to start a thread claiming I defending the Islamic nuts, then do so. But please don't hijack this thread....sour grapes you are.

Why dont you start a thread about the intolerance of the Islam religion.  They are far more intolerant than any Christian religion that you find so necessary to endlessly bash on this board.

I am not attacking Christianity. I am attacking those who hide behind relgion to be judgemental, and bigots. If somebody is going to claim to hold the truth, and everybody else is wrong. Then they leave themself open to be criticized and broken down.

it is such a big issue it's thrown in your face contstantly.. be gay do your thing just don't show off every second...? it's like the fucking parades in nyc, why can't the gays just march as people, I don't go to a parade with the straight section to march as an individual..
Be who you are just don't push it in everyone's face I hate all extremes from gay pride flamboyance to religious cooks

Remember, these people don't represent all gay people. Just like religious nuts don't represent their religion.

You don't march, but you haven't had your ass kicked for liking girls. Haven't been spit on, kicked down, and hated for liking girls (what you would consider natural). Years of being oppressed and told you are less than, can yield a rebel type attitude, would you not agree? People get tired, angry, and fight back.

Not being gay I would never know.. I just personally hate when we have the St patty's day parade in manhattan and they want special treatment... Nothing wrong with an all gay parade but I am not going to ask to be represented there as a straight guy or italian guy, that's wha tthe columbus day parade is for... I think it's much more accepted now especially in nyc where I live.. Maybe the rude random acts of hate are more away from me because it's not uncommon for me to work in Chelsea manhattan or the village and see guys hugging together...

it's even like I watch tv, I don't mind the gay guy or whatever, I just hate the attention whore super flamboyant look at me everyone gay diva.

it'sa ll about other people's upbringing and intelligence..

Well bro, I think you missed my point. Oh well.

Those people WANT to irritate you. They feel they have been shit on there entire life, and they act out to piss you off.

And it works.

Wel I never did anything to gay people... irritating people doesn't solve anything, a lot of people have been shit on their entire life, doesn't give them the right to drive people nuts.. if them being harrassed was so fucking annoying then they should try to be different.. That's like me getting beaten as a kid so I should beat my kids too..

I wouldn't complain if a bible was flushed down the toilet. ?So long as it doesn't clog the toilet. ?Then I would complain. ?Because... then I would have to pay a plumber to fix the toilet... and no bible I've stolen from a motel room is worth paying a plumber for!

But, there really is better uses for a bible. ?You can use the pages for collage. ?And you can use the covers for collage backs. ?

Art is my religion. ? :hihi:

I'm sure you have not. But that is not the point. They don't care if you have or not. They want to piss off the people who hate them already, you are just a casualty of the "attack".

Different people respond to things differently. Ever seen the anti-abortion people, or PETA, or any other nutty group? It's the same thing really. Not everybody who is against abortion or for animal rights are like these people.

They camp it up, and act more gay then ever, to shock and piss of the people they know hate them.

Many gay people hates gay parades for this reason. They feel it give them a bad name. Most gay men and women are just like us: they want to live life and be happy. They want to ?treat others with respect and in return expect the same.

Great resonse to an otherwise stupid comment.

Thanks for the laugh.

yeah that's true man.. Most want to be low key.. Those abortion clinic fucks are nuts.. Against death so they blow up the center and kill some people :o

society is so screwed up right now  :no:

SLC I just peaked at your sig and saw the number of casualties, damn shame, some coalition nearly 2000 americans almost 100 brits...

Funny thing thing is, these are comments that are made by the left all of the time.  They constantly mock christianity, but all of the sudden when a Koran is held without gloves they cry torture.  Go figure.

You can flush the Koran down the toilet too.  Although... it would make better collage ephemera than toilet paper, as would the bible. 

I'm against religion of any kind, I don't hold more prejudice against one more than another.  I think they should all be discarded, and humans should free themselves of their dated dogmas and religious ideologies.

I'll say it one more time.? You've never even had the guts to admit you don't believe in Christ.? You tout the message while dismissing the messenger.? Therefore you, of all people, are in absolutely no postition to determine who is and is not a Christian.


There are quite a few, no doubt about it.? I served an LDS mission in perhaps the most anti-LDS place on the planet - the southern Bible belt.? Like I said, I'm used to other's objections.? However, that's their beef.? Not yours.? So don't start pretending you're a friend to anyone in Christiandom SLCPUNK, because that's the last thing you are.



Remember when I said you only know what you've heard?? Well, thank you for making my point for me.? This is a tired anti-Mormon point of attack that's been done to death and, for the record, simply isn't true.

The LDS faith believes that God was indeed the literal father of Jesus, as Mary was the literal mother.? And Christ inherited both immortal and mortal traits from each respectively.

In other words, we believe Christ was conceived by God the Father and his mother Mary through the power of the Spirit.? We've never believed they had sex or anything, for as stated below, she was still a virgin afterwards.? ?

18 And he said unto me: Behold, the a virgin whom thou seest is the mother of the Son of God, after the manner of the flesh.

19 And it came to pass that I beheld that she was carried away in the Spirit; and after she had been carried away in the Spirit for the space of a time the angel spake unto me, saying: Look!

20 And I looked and beheld the virgin again, bearing a child in her arms. (1 Nephi 11:18-20)


Coming from someone who doesn't even believe Jesus left the tomb in the Old World to begin with, it doesn't surprise me that you find this unbelievable.

And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. (John 10:16)



Joseph Smith, along with 15 others saw and handled the plates for themselves.? Three of them had them shown to them by an angel.? Even though some eventually left the Church, all held to their testimonies until the end of their lives.



Uhh....no.? Actually they haven't.? The Book of Mormon, like the Bible, has never been "disproved" by anyone.? And in the end, one can only know of their truth through the witness of the Spirit - something you wouldn't know anything about.



LOL!? I'll give you credit for at least coming up with one I haven't heard.? But the fact is, Brigham Young died of a ruptured appendix.? Not that you're concerned with facts or anything.


Ooooohhhh.....so NOW you want to get technical regarding Christian doctrine?

Yes, this is a fundamental difference between Latter-Day Saints and other Christians.?

To begin with, we believe the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are three separate personages that make up the Godhood.? Hence, you have three Gods right there.

I could go further but I figure that is more than enough for your pygmie-sized spiritual understanding for now.

You have one here.

Can you tell me what you hate about Mormons so much?  Perhaps you dont like their lifestyle?  Perhaps it is their views on homosexuality?  Of course, their view is no different than any other Christian, Muslic, or Jewish religion.  What is it, Im curious? 

I am not a Mormon and I certainly disagree with Mormanism on many levels, as I do most religions.  However, I find Mormons to be some of the best people I know.  I never lived in Utah, so I dont know what it is like to live there, however, Southern California has its fair share.  Ive talked to many mormons, Ive been to mormon churches, one of my best friends was mormon, and I know tons of them.  They are hardly a bad group of people.  I think they are some of the most family-oriented people that I know, and are extremely successful as a whole.  In fact, I find that there are amazing similarities between Jews and Mormons, ie family, success.  Perhaps the most ironic similarity to the Jews, is that in addition to many other similarities, they also are constantly bashed and discriminated against in ways that.  Of course, the irony comes from the fact that those that claim to be the champions of tolerance, are the most intolerant people when it comes to Mormons. 

I find it interesting that people mock Mormons, but Catholics throw around absolutely un-biblical heresy like "purgatory", and few people mock them for it! Mormons do tend to get a lot of flak for being wrong in many places, but being small and isolated hurts, too.

Hell, even some Protestant denominations are having "civil ceremonies" for gays and women serve as pastors. Very few people who criticize Mormonism are innocent, because most are hypocritical. I think only a few very small Presbyterian churches have completely held onto fundamentalist doctrine.

70% of Evangelicals are poseurs anyway, at least. Most people who claim to be Christian aren't.

if you use teh apostiles creed in a mass your are considered catholic... so most christian relgions fall into that state.. so you must be meaning RC

I'll say it one more time. ?You've never even had the guts to admit you don't believe in Christ. ?You tout the message while dismissing the messenger. ?Therefore you, of all people, are in absolutely no postition to determine who is and is not a Christian.

Just because I am not a Christian does not mean I do not understand that Mormons are NOT CHRISTIANS.

There are quite a few, no doubt about it. ?I served an LDS mission in perhaps the most anti-LDS place on the planet - the southern Bible belt. ?Like I said, I'm used to other's objections. ?However, that's their beef. ?Not yours. ?So don't start pretending you're a friend to anyone in Christiandom SLCPUNK, because that's the last thing you are.

Actually I am a friend to quite a few Christians. They aren't assholes though.


Remember when I said you only know what you've heard? ?Well, thank you for making my point for me. ?This is a tired anti-Mormon point of attack that's been done to death and, for the record, simply isn't true.

This is the part of Mormonism that cracks me up. You don't know your own history. I have studied many different religions extensively. LDS I studied, once I had been in Utah for a while. Your group seems to have changed their story over time. To become more acceptable to mainstream America. Not allowing blacks in the church was another. But the LDS culture would cry foul if that was pointed out. No matter how much truth was in it.

The same for your history and early beliefs. They all get muddied up as time marches on, ESPECIALLY when somebody calls you out on them. Everything is subject to change:

Church changed all the quotes in the Brigham Young lesson manual from "wives" to "wife"

Church-wide Joseph F. Smith lesson manual removes all mention of this prophet's many plural wives and divorces

Church changing some (but not all yet) references to the "Cumorah Pageant" to "Palmyra Pageant"

Church quietly removed term "White and Delightsome" from Book of Mormon

Church removed strange words from temple endowment like "Barak Ale," "Pay Lay Ale," "Beelzebub," etc..

Church's other extensive April 1990 changes to the temple endowment ceremony to make it more politically correct by removing the blood death oaths, five points of fellowship, and the Protestant preacher in the pay of "Beelzebub" (Satan).

Church dropped the "Lamanite Generation" name at BYU and renamed it "Living Legends"

Church changed the name of the "Mormonads" in the New Era to "New Era Posters." These are those photos with "inspirational" sayings appropriate for cutting out and using for a constant reminder of someone else's ideas of appropriate behavior.

Church's recent world-wide announcement that insists the media never refer to the church as the "Mormon Church."

I can go on and on...but I won't.


Uhh....no. ?Actually they haven't. ?The Book of Mormon, like the Bible, has never been "disproved" by anyone. ?And in the end, one can only know of their truth through the witness of the Spirit - something you wouldn't know anything about.

The book has been shredded by Yale Archaeology Proffesors.

What they pointed out was that the book describes dozens of other species of animals and domesticated plants that have yet to turn up excavations from where the 'story' took place. Horses, bulls, goats, donkeys, sheep,......... grapes, olives, figs etc etc. Not to mention other objects: coins, functional wheeels, chariots, metal swords etc etc....

The history alone is false based on Archaeology.

They also believe that they will become God Like when they die, which by it's very connotatioin implies a polytheistic religion, which by definition is NON-CHRISTIAN.

Ooooohhhh.....so NOW you want to get technical regarding Christian doctrine?

I have, and I am correct.

Yes, this is a fundamental difference between Latter-Day Saints and other Christians. ?

So......then Mormonism IS NOT CHRISTIANITY.

I could go further but I figure that is more than enough for your pygmie-sized spiritual understanding for now.

Shallow insults from the hypocrite.

Always the sign of an argument lost.

In other words, we believe Christ was conceived by God the Father and his mother Mary through the power of the Spirit.  We've never believed they had sex or anything, for as stated below, she was still a virgin afterwards.   

I am glad you said this. It gives me the chance to do two things:

1. Show that your religion condradicts itself

and

2. Show that you either a.) Ignored the writing I am about to present you, or b.) Are ignorant of to them.

?Christ was begotten by an immortal father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal father."(Mormon doctrine p.547) "The birth of the savior was as natural as the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood?was begotten of his father, as were of our fathers." (Journal of Discourses vol.8 p.115)

"If none but gods will be permitted to multiply immortal children, it follows that each God must have one or more wives. God, the Father of our spirits, became the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh. "(Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, page 158)

"And Christ was born into the world as the literal Son of this Holy Being; he was born in the same personal, real, and literal sense that any mortal son is born to a mortal father. There is nothing figurative about his paternity; he was begotten, conceived and born in the normal and natural course of events, for he is the Son of God, and that designation means what it says" (Mormon Doctrine, p. 742).

***********

Yes, this is a fundamental difference between Latter-Day Saints and other Christians.   

Yes, and here are some more that are Christians DO NOT believe:

God has goddess wives: "This doctrine that there is a Mother in Heaven was affirmed in all plainness by the First Presidency of the Church" (Bruce R. McConkie, Apostle, Mormon Doctrine, p. 516)

Christians do not believe God to have a wife, or wives.

God is limited by a physical body: "The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's" (Doctrine and Covenants, 130:22) "If God possesses a form, that form is of necessity of definite proportions, and therefore of limited extension and space. It is impossible for Him to occupy at one time more than one space of such limits" (James E. Talmage, Articles of Faith, p.43

Christians believe God is infinite.

There are many gods: ""...In all congregations when I have preached on the subject of the Deity, it has been the plurality of Gods" (Joseph Smith, Founder and First Prophet, History of the Church, vol. 6, pp. 308, 474).

Christians believe in only one God.

Jesus and Satan are brothers: "The appointment of Jesus to be the Savior of the world was contested by one of the other sons of God -- Lucifer. This spirit-brother of Jesus desperately tried to become the Svio of mankind" (Milton R. Hunter, First Council of Seventy, The Gospel Through the Ages, p. 15)

Christians believe that Jesus was the only son of God.

"God himself was one as we are now, and is an exalted man...I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form...like yourselves in all person, image, and very form as a man...He was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on earth" (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 305)

Christians don't believe God was ever a man.

Man may become god: "Here then is eternal life ... to know the only wise and true God; and you have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all gods have done before you ... To inherit the same power, the same glory and the same exaltation, until you arrive at the station of God" (Joseph Smith, History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 306)

Christians do not believe you can become a God.

The black race is a cursed people: "Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because of his wickedness, he became the father of an inferior race. A curse was placed upon him and that curse has been continued through his lineage and must do so while time endures. Millions of souls have come into this world cursed with a blck skin and have been denied the privilege of Priesthood and the fulness of the blessings of the Gospel" (Joseph Fielding Smith, The Way to Perfection, p. 102)

Christians do not think that blacks are a cursed people. LDS will deny this, but it is common knowledge that your religion would exclude blacks from becoming priests until the mid to late 70's.

Joseph Smith , NOT JESUS will be our final judge. "No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom without the consent of Joseph Smith. From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are" (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p. 289)

Christ is the final judge, not Joseph Smith.

You haven't studied the LDS Church.? From the list alone below it is obvious you've gotten the vast majority of what you think you know about Mormons from anti-Mormon material.? Probably did a quick search online.? None of it is new.? I've seen and heard it all again and again.? ?



You're ignorance is showing itself again.? Blacks were allowed membership in the Church but were not allowed to hold the Priesthood until revelation was received in 1978.? Nobody denies this because we don't need too.? Nor has this fact stopped tens of thousands of blacks in the U.S., Africa, and elsewhere from joining the Church after receiving a testimony for themselves.



Really wiseguy??

And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity.? For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.? (2 Nephi 5:21)



I actually have both manuals for my Priesthood quorum.?

The Brigham Young manual contains both "wives" and "wife" depending on what is being discussed.

The Joseph F. Smith manual mentions the fact he had plural wives.



I've been in the LDS temples.? You haven't.? I know what it all entails.? You don't.? Enough said.



Are these supposed to be indictments?



Since revelation given in 1838, the official name has always been the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.? Before than, it was simply called the Church of Christ or the Church of Latter-Day Saints.

While the title is by no means offensive, "Mormon" was a nickname used by non-members for those in the Church.? Obviously they got it from the Book of Mormon; Mormon being the ancient prophet/historian who compiled the records that Joseph Smith translated.

But this isn't Mormon's Church.? It's Jesus Christ's.? Hence, it bears the name of He whose it is.? That others respect that isn't too much to ask.


Professors are a dime a dozen.? There are ones that would agree with you and there are ones that would not.

From "where the story took place?"? It took place in entire regions of southern, central, and north America.?

Even though we don't need to rely on physical evidence alone, excavations have turned up nearly everything you listed above.

Where do you think the ancient civilizations of the Mayans, Aztecs, Incas, etc. sprang from?? The American Indians that somehow were already here when Columbus and others arrived?? You think they just popped up out of the ground?


I would agree with you if by "Christianity," you mean what is considered mainstream Christianity - Catholic, Protestant, and otherwise.

However, that has no bearing on whether or not Mormons are Christians.? We believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God, know more about Him, and have more ancient scripture and modern revelation testifying of Him than anyone.?

We believe the early Christian church fell into apostasy and everything that has stemmed from it - mainstream Christianity - are dead branches from a dead tree.? Thus the need for a direct Restoration of the fullness of the Gospel, along with Priesthood keys and ordinances.

Of course, they consider us a cult.? So it's tit for tat.

And around and around we go.

Much of what you listed above is indeed true.? Some of it is half-truth.? Some of it is completely false.

Yes there are many things that Mormons (who believe they have the fullness of the restored Gospel) have in difference with other Christian churches.

In the end we'll see who was "right" I suppose.

Till than..........I'm done with you.

You have one here.

I would not consider you anything more than words on a screen.

Can you tell me what you hate about Mormons so much?

I have a strong dislike for hypocrites.

Let me rephrase that. Hypocrites don't bother me too much. But when they spew out self-righteous bullshit, that is enough. Then it's time for me to call them on it.

Perhaps you dont like their lifestyle? ?Perhaps it is their views on homosexuality? ?Of course, their view is no different than any other Christian, Muslic, or Jewish religion. ?What is it, Im curious? ?

My lifestyle is similar to a Mormons, except I am honest about it.

I drink coffee, because I like the caffienne.

While a Mormon won't drink coffee because they believe hot beverages are bad. But they will drink diet coke all day long. So caffienne in soda is ok, caffienne in coffee is bad. Also, coke became ok, once the Mormons obtained a large amount of stock in Cola. Then it got the green light to drink. Amazing! ?:o

To me, this line of 'thinking' is absurdly stupid.

 However, I find Mormons to be some of the best people I know.

I know great Mormons too. But the difference is, they don't judge, they are great people, because they are great people. They look down on others, such as our friend here, that preaches away.

I never lived in Utah, so I dont know what it is like to live there, however, Southern California has its fair share.

There is a saying in Utah, that a California Mormon is night and day compared to one from Utah.

Of course, the irony comes from the fact that those that claim to be the champions of tolerance, are the most intolerant people when it comes to Mormons. ?

You are trying to say I am bashing him soley because he is Mormon?

Hardly.

As I have stated, and both of you ignored (conveniently), I see a bigot, that judges other people, and uses his religion to back it up. In this case, he happens to be Mormon. If he wants to open a can of worms and claim it to be Christian, I will dispute that.

It is the same argument with you..........

If I don't agree with Bush, it means I blindly hate him/ Love Saddam.

If I don't agree with bigotry and prejudice with religion as mask, then I blindly hate Mormons.

Just because your world is black and white (easy for you to understand) doesn't mean we all think like you.

Much of what you listed above is indeed true.? Some of it is half-truth.? Some of it is completely false.

If this statement is true, it only proves (that much more) that your religion is full of half-truths, false statements and contradictions. Since they are all direct quotes from Mormon writings.

In the end we'll see who was "right" I suppose.

I'm not worried, the God I believe in isn't a racist, or hypocrite.

Till than..........I'm done with you.

Good, go dry hump your girlfriend and drink a diet coke.

Well, I guess that all you are as well.  Of course, I guess that is all anyone is on this board.  Doesnt surprise me you would quote that, you hate everyone that disagrees with you.  Of course that certainly isnt very tolerant SLC.  I dont hate you.  In fact, I have said it before, Ill bet you are a cool guy in real life.  I just find that you are extremely misguided when it comes to politics.

You haven't studied the LDS Church.  From the list alone below it is obvious you've gotten the vast majority of what you think you know about Mormons from anti-Mormon material.  Probably did a quick search online.  None of it is new.  I've seen and heard it all again and again.   

I sourced your text, used by your religion. I didn't know the Doctrines and Covenants were 'anti-Mormon'.  :hihi:

You're ignorance is showing itself again.  Blacks were allowed membership in the Church but were not allowed to hold the Priesthood until revelation was received in 1978.  Nobody denies this because we don't need too.  Nor has this fact stopped tens of thousands of blacks in the U.S., Africa, and elsewhere from joining the Church after receiving a testimony for themselves.

By your own Mormon text you refer to the black race as 'cursed'.

Really wiseguy? 

Yea really.

Professors are a dime a dozen.


haha, yea out of Yale!

Find one, that doesn't attend BYU that believes in that book!

There are ones that would agree

From BYU.

Even though we don't need to rely on physical evidence alone, excavations have turned up nearly everything you listed above.

No it has not. Links please.

I would agree with you if by "Christianity," you mean what is considered mainstream Christianity - Catholic, Protestant, and otherwise.

Let the back pedaling begin! (Reminds me of the reincarnation argument...)

However, that has no bearing on whether or not Mormons are Christians.  We believe in Jesus Christ as the Son of God, know more about Him, and have more ancient scripture and modern revelation testifying of Him than anyone.

You are truly deluded.

We believe the early Christian church fell into apostasy and everything that has stemmed from it - mainstream Christianity - are dead branches from a dead tree.  Thus the need for a direct Restoration of the fullness of the Gospel, along with Priesthood keys and ordinances.

Of course you say that, because Joseph Smith wanted to create his OWN CHURCH WITH HIS OWN RULES to inlcude polygamy!!!!!



Of course, they consider us a cult.  So it's tit for tat.

Uh....ever seen your women out there in Utah?

Can you say stepford wives?

You are a cult.

Don't get me started on: Secret names, hand signals, and the ritual drinking of diet coke. :hihi:

Not that SLC needs my backup in this, because he's creaming you in this debate, however, in reading the posts, the one who is not viewing things with an open mind is you.? Unfortunately, you can't, because you have been brainwashed to believe what you believe, so my talking here is achieving nothing except providing me with a temporary diversion from the things I need to get done today.?

Getting you to see the fallacies in your thinking is a fruitless endeavor, because the only way to get you to realize the error in your thought process is to deprogram you.? Why I'm telling you this, when you're only going to chew it up and spew it back at me with some dissipated propaganda, I don't know... it's like telling a blind person to open their eyes and see, it's just not going to happen.

Hot beverages are bad?? Even tea?? I didn't realize this conversion from caffeine being bad to hot beverages being bad had taken place.?

The next time the mormons come knocking on my door, maybe instead of bringing them in to show them my baphomet I should show them my cupboard containing well over a thousand dollars worth of tea.? Which one is more evil?

Tied up, your ego is writing a check that your body cant cash.? You obviously havent read a word that I have written nor read any of the past exchanges between SLC and I.

Of course you think that, you agree with him because you despise religion.

Oh, is that right?? I have bashed Bush tons of times.? I have said he is an idiot, and I have said that in hindsight the war was probably a bad thing.? I have criticized Abu Ghraib and other stupid things that some of our troops have done.? I have said that there is a lot to bash about religion, and I certainly have said that lots of religious people are hypocrites and that the Bible contains many contradictions.? Tell me where I have been so close minded?? Please . . .

SLC, on the other hand refuses to ever acknowledge anything that comes from the other side.? A prime example of this was the Newseek thread, which he continues to say that the Isikoff did nothing wrong and blames the whole thing on Bush.? He claims that everyone is innocent until proven guilty, yet as we have seen he is very selective in where he applies this standard.? So tell me just where am I so close minded, and where am I getting destroyed in this debate?

Brainwashed by who?? Every school I have ever went to has spewed left-wing propoganda on me from the start.? Its amazing I dont have the same views as you guys.? So tell me what exactly do I believe?? And then tell me why I am wrong?? No offense Tied-up, but what a stupid fucking post.? Of course this achieving nothing for me either, considering I have a few important things to do myself.

Do you even know what a fallacy is?? You guys throw out that term all the time, yet you fail to ever really point out anything.? If this is the case give some evidence.? What fallacies are there in my arguments?


 First of all, Im not that religious.? Second of all, Im glad that you have the true knowledge about religion and faith.? Who would have known that after 2000 years that someone on a GNR board would find the truth to the longlasting dispute over faith.? Of course, you dont know what I stand for, you simply assume that I am extremely religious just because I stuck up in a post for a Mormon.?

Of course, you must assume that I am Mormon.? I clearly see the possible hypocrisy, and fail to see the reasoning, in the whole Caffeine thing with Mormons.? However, that certainly doesnt make me dislike a group of people.? In fact, I dont know too much about the whole caffeine thing, certainly you dont either.? So I will refrain from judging them on beliefs that I dont know much about, even if you choose to.

You go ahead and do that.? Then you can sit in a circle and laugh with your little friends when they leave.? That would be funny wouldnt it.? Perhaps you could also wear a Yalmulke or a Turban around and mock those of other faiths as well.? That would be funny also.

That may just be true.  I have no way of knowing.

Well this quote is from a ex-Mormons I knew in Utah. One came from California and despised the judgmental atitude of her own people towards one another in SLC.

Another aspect of the church that I do not like: They judge one another harshly. Often times family members can not attend a wedding at the temple because they are not "temple worthy". Mothers wait outside while their "temple worthy" daughters get married inside. Totally nuts.

? My problem arises from the fact that you cant look at things with an open mind.

Pot .....meet black.

So, how about those gays in Utah, huh?

Part of this is correct.? I haven't gone back to check out the past exchanges between you and SLC.? Nor do I intend to.? I HAVE, however, read this thread with a great deal of interest.? I've read what you've written, as well as what SLC has written, and I based my judgements on openmindedness on both sets of exchanges.



Yes... but this thread isn't about bush and how stupid he is. ?It isn't about the war. ?It isn't about Isikoff, and it isn't about our judicial system. ?It was originally about gay pride in Utah, and has naturally evolved into a debate about the Mormon faith. ?So... my opinions are based on your comments regarding the Mormon faith, vs. SLC's comments regarding the Mormon faith. ?

That being said, in viewing the past posts, I have seen an error in my previous post, in that I was lumping you together with jgfnsr, and I realize that it is at jgfnsr that I intended to direct the 'brainwash' comments... for that I apologize. ?Now, you won't hear a woman admit she is wrong very often, nor are you likely to hear her apologize for said error, so enjoy the moment.

Moving on... FALLACY: ?Pronunciation: 'fa-l&-sE: ?Inflected Form(s): plural -cies: ?Etymology: Latin fallacia, from fallac-, fallax deceitful, from fallere to deceive: ?definition: ?(n) a false or mistaken idea; an often plausible argument using false or invalid inference

Of course, my fallacy comment was also intended to be directed toward jgfnsr. ?But... I did want you to know that I know what it means. ? : ok:


I think all religions are a joke. ?I generally mock religion, because I do think of them as a joke, and to be an insult on humanity. ?Human beings don't NEED religion, I believe it's a crutch that most people fall onto because they choose not to find their own sense of strength from within. ?

I don't HATE religion, I do, however, find it to be debilitating, and ultimately destructive to a person's sense of being. ?That doesn't mean I've found the ultimate truth, but it does mean that I've found what works for me. ?If religion works for you, or for someone else... hey, that's great too... BUT don't try to shove it down my throat by knocking on my door asking me to join your congregation or for a donation. ?Why shouldn't I mock someone who attempts to beseige me with their religion?

Which leads me to my next question... why does god need all this money anyway?

Which leads me to my next question... why does god need all this money anyway?

"My God ain't short of cash.....Mr."

-Bono.

 ;D

They got all kinds of gays in Utah. :hihi:



Utah Gay Rodeo Association:

http://www.ugra.net/

Gay in the Celestial Kingdom

http://www.younggayamerica.com/heartland3.shtml

And of course, just good ole gay in SLC:

http://www.glya.com/

While Mormons are aware that Salt Lake will become among the most wicked of cities in times to come, I think it's a stretch to say Las Vegas has less crime and pollution.? Besides, there is a huge Mormon presence in Nevada.? And for the record, the fact that Utah is dominated by Mormons hasn't stopped people from moving here.? You should know that.

It is a statistical fact. I know because I was shocked to find out when I was researching moving to Las Vegas.

Las Vegas police force is one of the best in the world for a reason: they want people to come back and spend money. The city (like SLC) is dependent on tourism and keeping LV safe keeps people coming back. And while Las Vegas has essentially the same geography (valley) there is no high pressure in the winter to hold down the pollution like in SLC during the winter.

Hence there is less crime and less pollution in LV then SLC.

Don't make me dig it up and embarass you more.

I didn't say it stopped people from moving to Utah. Rather I said it keeps the RE prices low and undervalued compared to the rest of the country. Many people are not interested in living in a state controlled by a religion, much less a cult-type religion.

That is why Park City is so expensive. It is filled with out of state buyers from NY, California and Florida who ARE NOT Mormon. The lack of Mormon influence in PC allows the prices to go up. They tend to lean more catholic up there.

That is why SLC placed DEAD LAST in home appreciation last year. It is 37th this year, but that is still lousy. PC on the other hand has had much higher appreciation.

Go to PC in the winter or summer, it's like you are in NY...nothing but NE'ers.........

? Last but not least - not to steal your thunder SLCPUNK - but the gay pride parade has been here for a few years now.? It's officially called the "human rights" parade though.? And for a guy who supposedly is married with a kid, you sure seemed to get excited about stuff like gay parades, bars, etc.?

I never said it wasn't, I just thought the article was rather funny/interesting.

If you want to question my sexuality, that is ok, whatever makes you feel better. I know who I am.

Ill take your word for it. ?One of my buddies that is married got married at the San Diego Temple and his brothers and sisters couldnt go in either. ?I thought it was kind of weird and different, yet I dont know much about it. ?I dont know much about a lot religions that have different rituals than those that I am familiar with. ?I dont know if I would use the term "nuts." ?Especially coming from someone that thinks it is completely normal to have to men or two women get married.


Ive listed plenty of instances that show that I have an open mind on things. ?Name an instance where you have had an open mind

I always thought Utah was gay....  :hihi:

haha, I love Utah actually.

Now... when you say love... 

never mind... bad joke.  Sorry.   :no:

mountains....not the mens...... :hihi:

EDIT: Nevermind, the lack of quotes and the use of black and italic make this argument nearly unreadable to me, since I haven't been following it much.

Easily confused....

There's a shocker......