Here Today... Gone To Hell!

Found this discussion over at the music website called www.velvetrope.com. I thought it was totally relevant to what you knuckleheads are constantly yapping on here about Axl/Guns. Mods do what you gotta do if you feel this doesn't belong here. However, if you all can remain objective, I think it would make a great discussion here too.


From velvetrope.com:

Do artists 'owe' their fans?

http://velvetrope.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB1&Number=611656&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=2&fpart=1

Why did I have a feeling nobody would  be bold enough to respond to this thread?

I really don't understand people who think that an artist owes me something .

What is it that they think the artist owes them?

Patience... I only check this board once or twice a day, I'm not logged on all the time.? We actually have a similar thread like this going on right now in the GnR forum...

I haven't read the thread you linked for us all the way through, but what I will say is this... NO artists do not owe their fans anything.? NOTHING.? If you buy an album, you are GETTING something in return for your cash paid.? If you buy a concert ticket, you are GETTING something in return for your cash paid.

There is no further guarantee after that purchase.? Buying album 1 does not automatically guarantee you that there will be an album 2.? Being a fan does not grant you some kind of privelege.?

Artists are human beings too, with a life of their own.? They should not be expected to live their life to suit their fans.? They should be allowed to live their lives as they see fit, and whether or not that includes communicating to the fans via some medium (be it a blog, message board, interview, press release, or whatever), that shoud be THEIR choice.

Just because you buy an album, it doesn't guarantee you a piece of that artist's existence other than what they've given you as part of the album itself.? Fans do not own the artist, nor should they behave as though they do (and make no mistake, believing that an artist owes you some kind of material, explanation, communication or anything else is a form of ownership... you are expecting a certain behavior from someone other than yourself).

I am an artist.? (Visual arts)? If the fans of my art all the sudden expected me to keep them informed of what I do, or do not do, I would feel that I am being partially owned by those fans, because of their expectations.? ?This is something that as an artist, I would have a BIG PROBLEM with... not just the fact that I have expectations put upon me by someone else... but it becomes a limitation, and limits and boundaries are difficult for artists (generally speaking).? Boundaries and limitations impose creativity blocks.

So... if you really WANT something from your favorite artist... rather than expect something from them, you should back off and let them be free to explore what it is they want to explore, in whatever timeframe it takes them to explore it.? ?: ok:

Yes artists owe their fans.

If an artist says "this is my last cd, thanks and I may be back someday"

Fine, Ill give u all the time in the world.

However

I dont know how it is for everyone else, but when I love a band it becomes more than just music..

The artist speaks to me and inspires me in ways that nothing else can, so they dont techncially owe me anything its not cool to leave u hanging either.


If an album is promised then they owe u that album.

Any kind of relationship isnt one sided whether it is boyfriend/girlfriend, husband/wife, whatever each side has to keep the otherside happy.

fans are what allow any type of entertainer to live that comfortable,great lifestyle, so if they promise something, u are damned right they owe us.

they owe us cause we love and support them.

If my fav artist comes out and says "this is my last record, thanks for all the years of support but Im finished"

Ill buy the last record and ride out into the sunset with them, but u cant go back on a promise. that is bullshit!

Sorry D, but you're full of it.  Not trying to insult you, but your post and the ideas put forth in the post, are pure bullshit.

As a fan, have you invested ANYTHING whatsoever in a future album by one of your favorite bands?  No.  You may have supported that band or artist in their PAST efforts, but unless you're a shareholder of their record label, you have nothing vested in the future work of that artist.

You are not their creditor, you are their fan... they owe you nothing... you owe them nothing.  If you aren't happy with the length of time it takes an artist to produce, then, hey, find an artist that is able to churn out albums like GM churns out automobiles.  If you want a true artistic effort, however, sometimes this takes time, and however long it takes... is how long it takes.  Period. 

I don't care if they've promised you an album every year for the next 20 years... unless you've PRE-PAID for those albums, they aren't owed to you, and you have no business putting expectations on that artist. 

Some fans (generally speaking) seem to think that just because they buy an artist's music, that they are somehow now entitled to a part of that artist outside of what they've received for the past payment made.   But, as I said before, buying past artistic efforts and/or merchandise associated with past artistic efforts does not entitle you to future artistic efforts.  There is no guarantee attached to your purchase that there will be future efforts to purchase.

I agree they dont owe us any future albums, but take Axl for example, By God he owes us Chinese Democracy and Id love to hear reasoning as how he doesnt owe us that?

I feel u have an obligation to your fanbase, it's part of the gig, Fans should be respected and treated as the important people they are.

now they dont have to post a diary or anything else and i am willing to wait 20 years if need be but Axl owes us Chinese Democracy


Bon Jovi have promised an album in September, if they dont deliver that's bullshit and letting their very loyal fans down.

I agree fans who talk shit and turn against an artist due to length of time or whatever else are wrong but its a 50/50 relationship

they have their life because of us, so they cant tell us to fuck off when they dont need us and then try to love us when they need us to move product.

it doesnt work that way to me.

no

the artists should just be themselves and act like they want to...when the fans follow them its the fans choice...if you dont like the way they act then dont follow them

Axl doesn't owe us chinese democracy or any other album.  He doesn't owe us a tour or an explanation of why the previous tour was cancelled.  He doesn't owe us anything. 

Here is why:  If you choose to be a fan of an artist, that is your right.  It's your choice.  Nobody put a gun to your head and said, "be a Guns N' Roses fan, and go buy their albums, and then sit and wait for future releases." 

You made a choice to be their fan, to love their music, and make it a part of you.   Just because you are a fan of an artist, it does not entitle you to part of that artist or future works from that artist, even if that work has been promised to the fans.   An artist saying something will be done, and it actually getting done are two separate things... this is simply a reality that most artists can understand, because, as an artist myself, I am often plagued by visions of different things that I see in my head and I hope to translate them onto my canvas, but often, my ideas of what the work will be, and what it turns out to be are two different things, and quite often, a canvas ends up in the garbage because it's not what I wanted.   Most artists have a huge hurdle to overcome when it comes to translating their visions into something tangible, and often their vision is never completely realized, and there is nothing more frustrating for an artist, especially one with a tendency toward perfection (ie:  Axl Rose).

Axl already gave you something.  He gave you albums, he gave you tours, he gave you merch associated with the tours, he gave you interviews and video releases, and he even gave you his voice on GTA.   He owes you nothing outside of these artistic efforts.  As I said before, you are not his creditor, you are his fan. 

If he "owes" you something,  that  removes you from the fan category and into the creditor category, and perhaps you should start billing him for your love and support.  Because that is essentially what you're saying, that your support and adoration of a musician has a price, and that the artist owes you something outside of what's already been given for that support and adoration.

That doesn't mean that the support and adoration isn't worth something, and it also doesn't mean that the fans aren't the special people you seem to imply in your last post.  What it does mean is that the fan and the artist are two separate individuals.  Just because you become a fan of an artist, you don't become his boss and you don't become his partial owner.  You are only a fan of past works, and not of the future works not yet materialized, and payment in full for the debt incurred by your love and adoration has been made by those past works.

I think u are totally missing my point. The artist owes you nothing but they should deliver their promise.

Axl has promised us CD for over 6 years now, so that falls into the owing us category.

had he never mentioned releasing an album then NO I wouldnt expect anything.

I will always remain a die hard loyal fan regardless if CD ever comes out, I will never say Fuck Axl and stop being a fan but when someone promises u something, thats when they owe you.

In a relationship, if your spouse says, "Friday night, we are goin out for dinner, then a movie etc etc etc"

If Friday rolls around and they dont go through with it and they say "I promise, next week definitely"

say that goes on for months, even a year or so, pretty soon they must take u out and fulfill that promise.

Artist/fan relationship is the same.

without the fans, they arent anybody, so when an artist makes a promise to his fans, that promise carries just as much weight as any other relationship.

If an artist makes no promises; they owe u nothing; if they promise; they owe you.

Promise and hope to do something are two different things.

Going to watch a movie or write 15 songs aren't exactly the same thing.?Bad comparison in my opinion. ;)

Compare making an album to doing a painting or something like that.




/jarmo

I'm not putting a time limit on it, but eventually I think we are owed this particular album, he doesnt owe us a tour or future albums but Chinese Democracy has to be released sometime.

Me personally, I could care less when he releases it, but people are acting like they dont care and if that is so, what are we doing here?

Fans who bash artists and stop being fans are wrong. I will never bash or stop being a fan but artists should deliver to their fan base.

Im sort of torn on another subject with Axl

in a way I think it's cool he never says anything, it makes it more mystical and intriguing.

on the other hand I think he should at least pop up every 6 months or so and at least tell us some sort of update, some kind of thanks for being patient.

Chinese Democracy is more than an album of music to me, i realize some people hear music and some people listen to music.

For me CD is very important, I have to hear it because I feel like it will influence me and motivate me, Call me insane but its way more than just music to me. way more than entertainment.

Im a step below that fat bitch in that movie "Misery" :hihi:

I can't believe I'm back here to argue with you more on this D.?

When did you actually hear Axl say "I promise that Chinese Democracy will come out"? ?-- THOSE EXACT words??

He may have said that it will come out, it will definitely come out, but I don't think I've ever heard that he has said, QUOTE:? "I solemnly promise to my fans that I'll put out an album."

He may have said he's working on an album, or that he's close to finishing an album, or that 'soon is not the word' but 'I'm not working on all this to keep it buried' but he hasn't said, " I promise the album will come out."

So... without the promise, your above argument holds no water.

If you can find me an interview, or a audio clip where he actually said this, then, by all means, point me in the right direction to hear it (or read it).? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

As Jarmo has pointed out, hoping something will happen, and promising it will, are two different things.? He may have every intention of finishing the album, just as every artist embarks upon starting an artwork with the intention of finishing it... but, as I am well aware, (as my garage is filled with half-finished artwork) a handful of artistic intention and $3.50 might buy you a latte at Starbucks.
 
Axl's music is important to me too, I get a lot of inspiration from it... and his voice is like a vibrator with fresh batteries on my G-Spot... but I don't feel like Axl owes me or any other fan anything.? I feel that he has already given me so much with the work he has? produced thus far, that if CD never surfaces, I can live with that.? That doesn't mean that I wouldn't love to hear the new album, it just means that my life isn't revolving around the release of the album.

 ;)? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

D,I want CD as bad as the next guy ,but I don't fill that Axl owes it to my to release the thing.


The only time I thought an Aritist owed their fans a album was ,the Tapeworm album that should have ben out like 7 years ago .And now Trent Says it will probably never come out.

so u are Greg Brady now goin by exact words? Everyone knows exactly what he meant with his upteen comments on CD.

he said in the Bucket memo that he'd give something in 6 months did he not?

And Im not even holding him to all the "See  you next summers"

U all can disagree if u want too, like i said, i wont be any less of a fan if he never releases it but after all the drama,buildup and all that has happened, I feel he owes it to us to show why he had to be rid of the ex members and why he holds onto the name.

He has to deliver that album.

call it whatever u want but when it comes to Chinese Democracy, I feel the fans are owed at least that much.

I am grateful for all we have and like i said I lose no sleep over it, I dont curse him or even get frustrated but I feel we are owed an album.

maybe your definition of owed and mine definition are different.

u seem to have more of a fanatical definition of Owed, Im only saying he has talked about the album, kept the GNR name and leaves us all hanging, I think he owes us something.
either an album or a statement saying he is no longer working and has officially retired.

It's a choice to be a fan or supporter, not a job. Fans don't work for the band or artist. It's not like they're on a payroll.  The artists' aren't obligated to deliver an album or show, unless it's paid for in advance.

D, Meatloaf was gone for 15 years, but when he came back in '93 the fans were still there. ZZ Top was gone for 10 years, and then they came back with a new album and the fans were still there. You can't press time, especially when it comes to art. You know that. 

Meat Loaf recorded albums all throughout the 80's but he isnt a real artist anyway, he is a singer who has to have a talented guy write songs for him.



U guys are missing my point.

almost every artist dont owe their fans however Axl does.


now for those who have skipped through my posts Ill put it real big here

HE HAS NO TIMELINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THERE IS NO DEADLINE,BUT HE OWES IT TO THE FANS TO RELEASE THAT SOMETIME BEFORE THE WORLD ENDS.


here is why it is different with Axl.

His vision led to the breakup of one of the greatest bands ever, For some reason his vision couldnt be fulfilled with Slash and the old guys.

He has been gone for 10 years and has kept talkin about this mythical,mysterious CD.

The album's secrets are kept tighter than CIA top secret documents.

He is supposedly GUNS N ROSES

he has to put up or shut up basically.

He let his mouth get him into a lot of trouble and now he has to put up or shut up.

The fans are very loyal to Axl, When i first started posting on this board I created a thread called "GNR fans have battered wife syndrome"

facts are this is a one sided relationship and most fans are ok with that.

fans do pay the artist salary, the artist doesnt work for the fan but they are flipping burgers without the fans.

Bottom line is

Axl continues using the GNR name
Axl has had a cd 6 years in the making
Axl's vision led to the demise of the greatest band ever
Axl has talked and promised this album *didnt give a particular date but he promised* Tied Up u can defend and twist the words all u want and give that lame ass "Exact words" argument all u want"

truth is he has promised and has taken his fans on a ride for a long time now.

so yes Chinese Democracy is owed to the GNR fans.


now after that if he chooses to go away forever, that will be his choice.

but we deserve the right to know what was so important he had to breakup one of the greatest bands of all time up to do this.

Definitely agreein with ya there D, Artists don't owe fans anythin; unless they promise it. I do think Axl owes us CD, but only because he has promised somethin magical all these years, and even let all of the original members go to achieve this magical thing. I'm not one of these Slash n Duff lick ups, nor am I an Axl lick up, I have equal love and respect for both sides of the camp. But yeah, Axl owes us CD, for the sole reason that he's promised it to us all these years.

Sitting here, shaking my head? :no: telling myself not to go back into this thread, because I'm only banging my head against the wall here.

 ::)

But here I am.? Oh well.



And people wonder why he has been so reluctant to deliver cd.? It's these kinds of expectations... waiting to see what was so "important" to break up GnR.? Maybe it was just the fact that Axl didn't get along with the other components of GnR anymore, they didn't want to go in his direction, he is too controlling, maybe it's even because he's an asshole.?

As an artist, I could deal with someone not being able to get along with me, because I don't get along with a lot of people, especially when I'm creating.? I get exceptionally moody and I'm not the best person to be around at that point.?

As an artist, I could deal with someone not seeing my vision, or wanting to work with me as I change my direction or artistic style or expression.? I could even deal with someone telling me I'm too overbearing or controlling (because I am) and I could even deal with someone calling me a bitch or an asshole (because I am).

However, as an artist, I would have a REAL DIFFICULT TIME with someone placing me on some kind of plateau with expectations of something fantastic, because even though my vision of the upcoming artistic expression may be fantastic, magical and mythical, the outcome may be less than the vision... in fact, I can guarantee, that in my own eyes, my vision is more fantastic, magical and mythical than the expression itself.? I can never attain my vision, and this is a difficult thing for artists.? We want to reach a certain thing, but we never realize just what it is we are reaching for.

With so many expecting this amazing thing ... it puts pressure on the artist.? Yes, Axl has spoken a lot about the album, as have other people... but, the reality for all artists is that the expression will never properly match the vision.? It's just not possible.  And perhaps he has realized this.  Maybe that's why he's retreated and not talking so much anymore.  (Pure speculation on my part)

Thats a total cop out though Tied Up.

He is the one who ran his mouth about how The blues and Madagascar werent big guns, he is the one talkin all the shit about 3 cds in the works etc.

I am a solo artist because I can't work with other people, it sucks having to deal with others however thats the world we live in.

If he didnt keep the GNR name, guess what, he wouldnt have as much pressure, thats a bold fucking move holding onto the name and u are right, in doing that, that places enormous expectations on him HOWEVER it is his fault expectations are so high.

If he never releases it, Great, Ill forever be a fan, but to sit there and say we arent owed some sort of album is letting him off the hook. I understand being a fan and Axl is my CO favorite of all time, but eventually he is gonna have to put up and show his hand for better or worse.

It would be nice to have new music from Axl, because yeah, he is like the closest thing to a god to me -- but I don't think it's something that's owed to me or that I'm entitled to because I'm a "long suffering" fan.?

And hey, the christian god hasn't released anything new since the bible, and people are still worshipping him.? Why aren't christians getting pissed off at god saying -- hey you OWE us the second coming of christ.? Where's the rapture man, where's the rapture?

Yeah, I know I'm going to hell.? Some may argue that I'm already there.? ?:peace:

"And hey, the christian god hasn't released anything new since the bible, and people are still worshipping him.  Why aren't christians getting pissed off at god saying -- hey you OWE us the second coming of christ.  Where's the rapture man, where's the rapture?"

You know what. That may very well be the best analogy any one can come up with to illustrate the irrational fervor that some people hold towards GnR. Well, mostly, it seems, towards our dear Uncle Axl. He IS a human being after all. Just as fallible as anyone else. Let him be, I say.

haha sorry for bringing up this old topic, but there was a quote on the MTV 'You Tell Us' section that I had to post here.  This is from a Blink 182 fan who thinks that their fans aren't getting any information on the band.  Here is the exact quote:

"Blink-182 fans are not getting enough information about the band's future. We went to the shows and bought the records and the merch, we helped make them what they were. I really wish they would just come clean and tell us what happened so we can have some closure.

I'm glad that we can expect an explanation in Tom's music, but what if some people don't pick up on it? What if his metaphors aren't clear enough? Are we supposed to just not know? I guess we have to wait and see."

Cenz, 18
Philadelphia, PA

http://www.mtv.com/news/youtellus/topics/b/blink_182/100605.jhtml

So again, while you may or may not agree that artists owe their fans, there are plenty of fans who certainly feel that way about all artists.

Opinionated artistic women who make references to their g-spots. I love HTGTH.