Here Today... Gone To Hell!

It is obvious that the new band are a bunch of hired musicians that were picked for their talent and picked to fill a very specific role within the band.  Is it possible that the original lineup was the same?  How much input did the old Gunners have?  Has it been the Axl show all along?  I know that their are others credited for writing songs but it could have been 99% Rose and 1% Slash or whoever.  All the old guys had very spelled out parts to play and some were easily replaced (Izzy for Gilby).  Is there any weight to this or am I hallucinating madly?

You're hallucinating madly

 :smoking: Izzy? :smoking:

they're not just hired guns. they participate in creating the new songs.

You must be joking.. you have given a whole 1% for Slash. I think you're seriously hallucinating..it should be 0,95%  ???
 

I agree that the new lineup is a bunch of hired 'guns', but I think you are underestimating how much they are involved in the creative process. I'm sure that someone like Tommy Stinson was picked in part for his songwriting ability. I think some people give Axl way to much credit for the creative process... he wasn't the only (and dare I say main) songwriter in the old lineup. Infact he has yet to release an album without Izzy..........

pick up your GNR albums and read the writing credits..'nuff said :yes:

this thread is so stupid.. Yeah axl did everything, no one contributed a thing ::)

I find lately that it is almost impossible to disagree with the point of view that Axl is and always was GnR.

Based on his stellar post gnr days :D

gnr did their best work when they were a group.. Listen to some of gnr's best tunes and see that the guitar parts were just as important as anything else when hearing those songs.. I guess may was nothing to queen, page was nothing for zepplin, perry was nothing for aeromsith, richards was nothing for the stones..

I love how people try to discredit everyone else but axl yet support him to death when he gives you nothing..

People don't understand the meaning of  band..  SOme might enjoy solo work better so it's all their guy's alone..

I'm right on the same page as you, I seem to have missed the album that axl wrote and released. As far as I can tell he was part of a band that had some of the better song writers in the last 20 years (sure bash the solo stuff like snake pit). To say that axl was the driving force behing the old GnR material is ridiculous... Izzy was as much a part of that if not more...... Axl's ego didn't really begin to rear it's ugly head untill the very end of that band, which is why everyone began to flee. and have since joined together and recorded one of the best Rock and Roll albums in the last few years..... Of course most poeple wont admit that here... because Axl isn't on it, it's crap right...... But Oh My God was a gem.....

Any one know what that response is about??

People will never admit it, if axl did a few songs that are on contraband they would have loved it.. If people can bow down and become slaves to 32 second irs shitty clip then they can enjoy a full song that is rocking.. Him doing slither, dlt or ftps would have been appreciated.. If they had a brief clip of the star of slither they would have been saying instant classic, the hook intro is so catchy.. As for oh my god it's cool until he singing starts, hte instruments themselves sounds really good..

It would be a sin against lord axl if certain people would say they liked one song off contraband.. Maybe some are hoping for a dedication from axl at some future new gnr show.. Hell maybe he will ask some here to get up and join him on KOHD.. :hihi: People have built these online personalities that is all about disagreeing and even if they loved a VR song they wouldn't admitt it because it's personal and having to say slash matt or duff are complete failures post gnr is a must for them.. Their almost cult religion worshipping is so overtaken them they can't even say something good or even force themselves to like soemthing else..

The same people that love vgh hate CB, and anything else... Not all but you few know who you are.. Like you can't enjoy two albums :nervous:

=========
Estranged I am not sure what you are saying..

I think that the songwriting process in the original line-up was something like this (based on Axl, Izzy & Slash's comments over the years); Izzy was the primary songwriter, creating the basic structures of the tunes on acoustic guitar. He'd then work them through with Slash who would create the riffs and lead lines while Izzy would craft the complimentary secondary guitar parts. The basslines and drum parts were left to Duff & Steven/Matt. After Izzy left they were in trouble; other members of the band had obviously brought ideas for tracks to the illusions sessions but they had the whole band together, including Izzy, to shape the tunes. It's pretty clear that Axl had little faith in Slash's ability to create an album's worth of tunes from scratch - besides rejecting the Snakepit tracks in the form that Slash presented them it seemed that the main concern, or Axl's main concern anyway, was finding the right guitar player to work with Slash. It suggests that the feeling was that Slash required the right impetus to bring the best out of him.

So, it would seem that the "GNR sound" was quite reliant on Izzy's input, or that he bore more responsibility for it than any other individual member of the group. Slash provided the aggressive lead guitar and Axl was the voice.

I would think that Axl has tried to structure the new group in the same way, so the main question should really be "who has replaced Izzy?" i.e. who has taken on the responsibility of shaping the songs, of providing the base structure for the other members to work from? Yes, all of the members participate in creating the final product, just as the old group did, but that doesn't answer the question. You can safely assume that this band's songwriting methods are the same as the old band's because it's hardly a GNR-specific formula, most bands work that way. I'd put money on Axl and Tommy being largely responsible for taking the ideas and crafting them into song format, simply because they're the most vocal and optimisitic about the album/band and they've been involved the longest without wobbling.

Excellent Post HK-47. I completely agree. Without a legitimate replacement for Izzy, this album isn't going anywhere.

Doesn't necessarily need to be Izzy, just someone to tell Axl to stop fuckin' around with the mix and release the album for fuck sakes. You would think the band (if they weren't hired guns, that is) would get pissed off and force Axl to release it so they could start makin' money and touring.

the only one with balls is bh and he left the rest are just hired guns with no balls.. WHo joins a band and 7 years later is still cool with nothing released or tours.. It's just tommy robin, richard, pittman etc know they have no where to go so they stick around as axl's whiping boy left out of the grand scheme..

Really shows how ignorant you are mike. If Tommy wanted he could make a lot of fuckin money with a Mat's reunion. Richard owns his own business for gods sake. Brain is members in other bands as well, so i doubt he NEEDS guns. Fact is they all believe in the material they helped create, that's why they have stayed.

I don't think it has anything to do with them having balls or not. I think that they were hired to contribute to the album and they got payed for it and thats it. They weren't recuited into Axl's "partnership" so I think they have no say in when (or if) CD will be released. Brain, Tommy and Dizzy have all said, "when Axl is ready, I'll be there". That leads me to believe that they have been hired for a job not brought in to help make decisions.

Axl is a control freak and a perfectionist, and doesn't let anyone tell him what to do.
A perfect album is impossible so Axl will never be happy with it and since he has no one pushing him to release it, I don't see any reason to expect CD anytime soon. Just my opinion.

I agree with Mike and Neemo... The old band was definitely a collaboration way more than NuGNR..   I think in the old band Axl was given control of certain things NOT given control of every single aspect as he is now, which makes his new band like hired musicians, they have NO say in anything.   They are not stupid either, none of them are big enough to go out there and make it on their own, they are waiting for Axl cause they know when/if he does decide to release CD and they tour it will be big, bigger then any of their solo projects.

Then I say I made a mistake.. I still don't think if you are  aband only one person has the input on when something happens when you have at least 8 people who contributed to an album.. A groups is made up of people that have equal say from business end to input on material.. Staying really doesn't take much being they never need to be there..

really...???? well what was the spaghetti incident??? a cheesecake?? no it was an album.

An album of covers, though.

Nothing original

Sorry, wan't trying to poke fun at your english, I just couldn't figure out where you were going with that post.

Did Axl write Hair of the Dog
Did Axl write Since I Dont Have You
Did Axl write Look at Your Game

Did any of the members that recorded that album conrtibute to writing any of that material??


NO

So Axl hasn't released an 'original' Album without Izzy as a writing partner.

Thanks

It means everyone acts like he was the driving creative force in the old band, when in fact Izzy wrote the majority of the material.....

Everyone instantly use's the the Snake Pit albums and various other solo projects to say "Look Axl is the only talented one", just wait till his solo album is released before you crown him greatest song writer in the history of music.

Axl is like a fine wine he gets better with age?? Nice quote in your sig, but how does that hold up to the truth? So you like the first snakepit album,... Nice to know..
I feel the entire cd hype gets over done, cd is the most overrated album ever because people proclaim in great and say stupid shit like it will outsell afd and so on, yet no one has even heard the album yet.. As for what we heard I don't even count irs.. But people did act like it was the seocnd coming when they heard the 32 second clip, round 2, cd starts now :hihi: Rhiad, oh my god silkworms suck.. His rhiad live is terrible.. If I had to pick the better three it would be cd ,blues maddy.. I still think he can do much better and look forward to seeing what he has done.. :beer:

Gilby Clarke and Matt Sorum... There's some "hired guns" for you.

People seem to forget that.




/jarmo

Yeah, I would really like to listen to Axl's solo album. Out in 2059? Without Izzy, the band is useless for writing music. And the new band.. they are all hired guns  ::)

Slash and Steven were "hired guns" at first too. The only "original members" of the band on AFD were Axl, Izzy and Duff if you really want to be anal about it.

It may seem like a redundant and obvious point but here goes: NEWSFLASH - Things change.

Yes Agreed both those guys were hired guns


But how does that deny the fact that the ENTIRE band currently is hired guns whereas back then Izzy,Slash.and  Duff all had a great deal of imput and hold over which direction GNR went , what they said and what was released.....that fell by the wayside and the band consequently fell apart as they couldnt handle being 'hired guns' with no say. Izzy being the first and probably the most able to stand up to Axl.

As long Axl, Slash and Duff were in the band it was not an issue.

Since 1996, Axl has started something that has nothing to do with Guns N'Roses calling that Guns N'Roses. That's an issue.

:'(

well musicans who worked in newgnr are very good musicans.Buckethead and tommy stinson are very talented.But the real question is do you know how music starts!!!
Well as we know Axl didn't play guitar parts in old and in new songgs.Axl didn't play drums and bass too.Maybe Axl had idea of the songs,but other musican have a big part in guns n roses music.

I like Axl and that guy is genious,but as tommy said he gave to other musican a lot of space to introduce themselves

Coma, it is a fact admitted by ALL band members in court documents that Axl had most of the writing credits-42% of the catalog. Izzy was next but it was BELOW Axl. Since nobody on this fucking board was there during the recording sessions, no one really knows what happened. We can only go on official testimony of the band members and the writing credits/publishing credits. Last time I checked, Izzy wasn't getting 19 million for his publishing deal. Seems to me that people like to exagerrate a little too much about Izzy. Back to the topic, the new guys are hired Guns-so what? Still a cool band. As for the old band, it was more of a collaboration on mixing, mastering and determining what tracks would be on the albums. But again, so what? We can't judge or make any comparisons because Axl won't release anything. No way to know what method is better until you hear the finished product. >:( >:(

The old guns guys would often refer to Gns n Roses as a 'family'. This family fell apart. The simple logic is you dont get a new family and try and mould it or name it after the previous family. Logic says if you arent living in the past and have self esteem, you accept the new people for who they are and create something new.
As Brain lamented in a recent interview, he has less freedom in GNR than other projects because he's expected to do drum fills in the way that people expect it should be done ...in the GNR style. So much for not being a hired gun.

How can a group of musicians let the creative juices flow when they are living undr the shadow of a legend??when they dont have ownership or the ability to be genuinely honest without the possibility of being fired??

You're forgetting that the writing credits were applied according to the scheme that Slash came up with during the AFD sessions. While Axl may have 42% of the credits, we're still not sure how their crediting system worked. If Axl just wrote lyrics and vocal melodies for 84% of the tracks, that could be worth 42% of the total credits, we don't know.

I haven't seen the interview. where is it?


So then, you think you have more things to do with GN'R than Axl or the new guys you calling hired guns do, huh?

Thanks a lot.

But I guess you misread it.  :P

I've read Brains interview where he's saying he's very eager to back to GN'R with the release of Chinese Democracy coz then he won't be a hired gun or something along those lines.

well i will compare axl with coach of chelsea jose murihno.they are geniuos,they have a great sucess,they are visionars,you could love them or hate them nothing in the midlle,and everybody talks shit about them but everybodys respect them.

So in my thoughts axl isn't dracula or something else,he is the man who likes job which he do and man who is perfectionist.

1996? Duff was still in the band in 1997..... Or maybe the key member for you was Slash.


Nobody's forcing you to be here.

Maybe you need a message board that's only for the old band?



/jarmo

Who forgets, everyone knows they are as is dizzy reed.. Now the entire band is hired..

I don't remember reading post here about how GN'R had a bunch of hired people in the band back in the 90s.

All I see is posts about the current band having "hired guns" in it.




/jarmo

you're such a douche mike

Depends who you talk to, some feel that way after steven left, some though it was over when izzy left, some feel the band needs just axl slash.. Thwe thing was the band may have changed back then but it stayed on course in one time period..

Fuck off rim job, oh I mean jim bob..

So what you're saying is it was still gnr even though it had hired members back then? but its not now? seems hypocritical to me...

exactly.  as long as his favorite member is still in the band its gnr.  but when his drunk ass signs the rights over and quits the band a few years later, its no longer gnr  :hihi:

I think Izzy from the original lineup wrot ejust as many if not most of the work for the original guns. He is the bridge between Axl and Slash and was a great rythm guitarist that understood how riffs connected with songs.  That is why since Izzy has been gone we have heard what 1 new official release song?

Love Axl all you want but Izzy is just as responsible for the old stuff, if not more

here we go again...... ::)

all I can think of saying is that whomever is listed on the legal documents as part owner of 'GNR Inc.' is a 'member' the rest are 'hired guns',  past members included....

Axl and Izzy were the ONLY original members of the band.  everyone else came later on.  it was their band, so when Izz left, it was Axl's band.

Wait a minute though, it may have been Axl and Izzy starting this but the were NOT signed, therefore anyone who joined the band before they were signed aren't "hired" members, they are the original members of GNR, Slash, Duff and Steven.  Yes, Matt and Gilby were replacements and also Dizzy was hired as the keyboard player. Can't just say it was Axl and Izzy's band all of the original members got signed together, they as a whole became the GNR that ruled the world.

a lot of the gnr material was already written by Izzy and Axl before someone like $lash even came into the picture.

Yeah but you can't deny the fact that even though the songs were written before I'm sure that Slash, Duff and Steven added their own parts to complete the songs and together made them great.

I love the money sign.. Old axl better use the gnr name to save that 13 million dollar hole he's in.. We know he's way to lazy to really support his band and do promo.. ?Take slash away and all those song with great guitar solos would have been gone.. ?Axl better hold on to that name ,he needs success before the material comes out.. The unknowns will have fame before the people even know their names..

Fuck this.  >:(U can't have a band without more than one dude.
Axl was not all of GNR, he may be now, but it's not fair to say no-one else was invloved.
whatever this "hired guns" crap is about it's all a load of shit.  ::)

Axl rules ass but Slash,Izzy,Duff, and Steven were just as important : ok:

Yeah, Steven sure wrote a lot of great ass songs in his lifetime so far.  Tell me that this new band is not just a bunch of hired guns, try it.  You can't because they are.  This is Axl's car to crash, the other guys are just innocent passangers.

OK but i bet Axl cant fucking play drums like him! ;D

Warning, Warning: Personal opinion.

I am in a band.
I, along with one other guy started the band.
We're not signed (yet), but that doesn't mean that I don't see the band as mine.

The FANS are the ones who sees Slash as an original member, and as a key member to GNR.

To Axl, I think he has every right to think of his band as Guns N' Roses no matter who is in the band.
It's just like The Cure.

The only original member in that band is Robert Smith.

I wish the new Guns N Roses had a different band name.
But they don't.
The new songs sound great, so I'm looking forward to the CD when (if) it happens.

sure ryan, I do belive they started the band, but where can two guys go alone without a band.. I can come up with a bunch of ideas, but nothing will ever happen until I get the team who can do it with me.. If you do something for 5-7 years with the same guys and make it big everyone becomes one part of the unit..

I know a lot of people that started bands, or had the idea and influences, but once they became one they were one, no one was more or less valubale.. A group is a team, they need eachother to make it..

Everyone can pretend gnr would have been equally big without the guys who aren't izzy or axl, but I know and anyone with a clue knows the magic happened with all of them as ONE..

I'd love to see if izzy owned the name and axl was out if these same people would be calling it gnr.. :hihi:

I think that's cool that your are in a band and I am sure everyone in your band sees your band as theirs.  No matter who started it, if you are in it together and then get signed together, it's YOUR band as a unit.   If Axl and Izzy could it alone, why didn't they, why even bother getting anybody else to join?  Because they knew they needed a collaboration and I bet if you asked Axl now if he thought the old Guns was his when it was all the original members, I bet he would say no.  Cause back then was way different then what it turned into up until now.

Yeah you got an ego problem already. So fricken what if you were the first ones in the band. So what if you played a small coffee shop before JOHN or JIM joined.  I look at a band the same way the Rock n Roll hall of fame does.  Their lineup at the time up of their first release.  I see that as the original line-up.  Heck Dave Grohl was like the 6 guy to play drums in what was to become Nirvana and people see him as a true member even after he himself it was more Kurt's and the bass players ideas.  Look at the Bealtes RINGO wasn't the original drummer, but no one puts the original guy over them.

It's all about talent and what you put into your band.  If you are the guy who has a broken bongos set and can't play them but you come up with an Idea for a band called GNOMES, and you get a guitar player to come hang out and play with you and then you get a bass player and then a singer and then the band starts to fill out, do you honestly think it was your band because you were the first one there?  What if you all work together writing songs and recording them.  You are a very arogant man to think Aband is your band because you were there first, it BELONGS TO EVERYONE IN THE BAND who works their asses off, plays them shitty clubs, tours in their crappy vans and does whateer they can to help you sell the band.   

SHAME on you Ryan and I hope your band finds your egotisical ways out and can find a better team player.

For starters who don't even know who the members were:

Axl, Slash, Duff, Izzy and Steven were the members. (And Tracii and Rob for a month or so.) Period.

This is getting out of hand..........

I hate that Goth Queer, he fucks up too much....  :hihi:

I don't have anything bad to say about the man, he doesn't fit my vision of gnr.. He can play good and seems dedicated so name calling isn't called for..

Who and what is Goth Queer? ::) Tracii?

the soundman  :P

Well I don't know how they get paid, but I'm sure he made some good money with NIn's and I don't see him furthering his solo career (if he has one) by using the name.. I can't say who is more driven by money there or who is more driven by confidence that something big will happen? I'll just wait and see what happens when things actually do happen..

Oh yeah that's right because you live in Robin's head right? So you know why he does everything?  ::)

If the fact we don't have an album yet isn't proof positive these guys are nothing more than "employees" I don't know what is.

Like in most work situations, you can work hand in hand with your boss and ultimately make suggestions to him about what should be done. However, he always makes the final decisions and you know not to push the envelope too much because no matter how good of friends you may be or how receptive he may be to some of your ideas, he can still send you packing at any time. This will always cause to you to operate in a more guarded, subservient manner.

On the other hand, if you are business partners with someone and no one has the power to fire anyone in that partnership, then you have a totally different working environment. People will lay into eachother and put pressure on eachother to get shit done because there is no threat of repercussion. It is a more conducive work environment to actually getting things done as other people actually have the leverage and power to challenge you.


We still wouldn't have the Illusions if the other guys hadn't pressured Axl to get it in gear and finish his parts to release the damn thing. They had the leverage to do that. This new group doesn't have that same ability because they have no leverage and at any point Axl can send them out the door if they challenge him in a way he doesn't life.

It should be pretty clear at this point which set of working conditions make it easier for a band to record and release music. Partnerships often tend to be more fruitful than Employer-employee type of working situations.

I wonder if being axl let dizzy n chris do a song if he has more songs on cd he didn't personally write?

Naupis, Bob Dylan worked in an employer/employee relationship and released over 40 albums. The problem is the employer is very unstable and not reliable! And also not financially "hungry". The situation could have worked had Axl had a coherent vision-which he obviously does not after a decade of recording. :hihi: Mike, take a hard look in the mirror and realize that your post after post after post after post after post of the same shit is NOT going to change anything. The old Gnr is absolutely positively 100% over and done. Ok? Take a break and go put the headphones on, close your eyes, do some curls, and listen to AFD  on rewind for the next 20 years. We get your point-for the 1000000000000000th time. :hihi:

No, they don't. How does your theory account for the fact that there  are hundreds of manufactured pop icons releasing hundreds of albums every year, all using session musicians? How does it account for the many great solo artists over the last few decades who also use session musicians and different line-ups with every tour?

The reason that the album isn't out is because Axl isn't done with it yet, end of story. Of course, that's a whole other  story in itself.  ;)

That's the whole point. He is in a group. Each member should be able to tell the other to get it in gear and get it done. The fact that can't happen in the GNR situation supports the theory the other members are his employee puppets he directs to do whatever he wants.

Under the old GNR structure, when they were equals the other members had the leverage to pressure him to finish stuff. That is probably how we ever got any music out of them. Now that no one can say anything to him because they are employees, rather than partners, had lead us to the situation we are in now.

You know...Buckethead ruined the reputation of the band. The band is better now.

I can't say it for sure, but I think even if BH never left rio 4 would have never happened, it was just a very convienent way to back out of the show.. The album clearly wasn't ready yet so there was no reason to tour one day then go away for another year..If they really were so into playing that exact gig, they could have done it with afew months to go.. They did rio 2 when it was matt's first show, gilby learned his shit quickly to keep guns going..

when a harley crawls pubs in T-shirts n miniskirts in winter...

all the ifs and buts... :hihi:

To Mike n James..... if ifs and ans were pots and pans, there'd be no work for tinkers.

MayB. Then there'd be a hope of return Bucket. 
That doesn't necessary mean the album wasn't ready then or isn't ready by now. 

Shut up, Buckethead's better than than Goth fag you call Robin Finck

Could you Shut the fuck up, please. And Mind you nesquick dislikes both. :hihi:
Both guitarists are great in different ways.

Why don't you fuck off

You first?

Nice try, not gonna happen

Interesting...  ::)  Where are the mods?

Oh man. I'm sure people don't even read things here.
I said that I can see why Axl sees the band as partly his own.

But I also think that Slash, Izzy, Duff and Steven were the original band. I said that I dont think the new band should be called Guns N' Roses. Didn't you read that?

Also, don't fucking tell me that I have an ego problem.
I just stated that in every band I'm sure that there is someone who sees themself as the leader.
I'm not saying the other guys are just disposable faces.

I obviously wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the original band.

Why don't you shut up before you get banned?

ryan_of_lax I thought it was a good post.  ;)
I think every member of a band should feel it as his band and his people.
When CD comes out...
I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for the current band.

Doubt it. Seeing you're here to make a nuisance of yourself.
Quit Fag calling.

Anyway I'll stop answering you cos it's nothing to do with the topic.

r u on cannabis

This has got to be page of the year, so funny? :rofl:

 :smoking: Izzy? :smoking:

Has this got ANYTHING to do with the topic?


Keep it up and I'm just going to lock it.

Equals? Do you think that anyone was taking into account how Sorum wanted the album mixed or what deadline Duff had decided on for the lead guitar parts? Guns N Roses is not, was not and never will be a democracy. What's more, it never will be structured to your fanboy vision of how a band should work; there is no one right way to organize a band, there's room for all sorts of different working relationships even within a single group. In this group, the buck stops with Axl. Delivering this album is soley his responsibility, and he's clearly set high standards for it. IF CD sucks, who is going to get the blame? Axl. Who is going to have to pay back the hefty advance and recording costs? Axl. Why should anyone else get to make a decision on when the album is "ready"?

Look at it this way; When making a film the director will work closely with his cinematographer, his production designer, his actors and his other various crew. It's a collaboration. However, once all of the filming is complete it's the director's responsibility to turn the millions of feet of stock into a movie. You don't find the key grip or the head AD or even the lead actor banging on the editing room door, asking if the film is ready yet.   

That was honestly one of the best things I've read here.

I wouldn't have agreed so much before hand.
But that was a REALLY good analogy.

There's always a leader to every group.
It's foolish to think there's not.

In the original band, Izzy wrote most of the music. Somewhere, some time  long ago there  was  a post  about who wrote what on AFD. But if in doubt just check the liners for UYI 1 and 2.

Well, this is what happens when there's no any Izzys in the band  :smoking:

But hey.. Why Sorum was a hired Gun, but Brain is not?

Guns N' Roses are alive and well!!

Nice to hear your opinion, but this has nothing to do with guestion  : ok:

Guns n' Roses ARE ALIVE AND WELL!!!

Why should I leave ? Just because you don't agree with me ?

You should understand that not every GN'R fan agrees with you, even if you're the webmaster.

I think that you, jarmo, and pandora are most of the time talking nonsense and you're taking advantage of your position doing so. Few people here dare contradicting you...

Lot of cowards.

Sure.

Maybe you've missed the reason why this board exists. It's for GN'R fans, not necessarily for GN'R fans who "like the old band and hates Axl with a passion".

You along with your friends sound like a broken record. It's probably been playing in your head since 1996 "It's not GN'R", "it's not GN'R", "it's not GN'R", "it's not GN'R", "it's not GN'R","it's not GN'R" over and over and over again.

We get it. Move on.



/jarmo

Essential things are never repeated enough.

It's also never repeated enough that "stalinists" like us can delete posts of people who insist on breaking the rules like you. Keep that in mind.

You got the point!  :peace:

You're one of those people who sound like an old record.  :peace:



/jarmo

Guns n Roses is "the Axl show". plain and simple. As a Musician, Axl's like Ozzy. Ozzy gets musicians to play on his albums and perform live with him. It doesn't matter if it's Zakk Wylde, Randy Rhodes or Jake E. Lee on Guitar. It's still Ozzy.

Same with GnR (After Slash Left of course) whether it's Zakk Wylde, Dave Navvarro, Bucket Head, Finck, Fortus, Huge, Gary Sunshine, Axl himself or whoever. it's still going to be Axl with a bunch of guys.

Thats my reason for thinking Axl should release an album under his own name instead of the Guns n Roses name. But.. ya know what? My opinion don't mean shit to Axl.

I guess no one is wrong it's just opinion.. Wether you support axl alone or the new band all together.. I tend to like artists as I get albums and tours,,.

Yes axl owns the name and he will do whatever with it.. I just don't think he really has done anything with it yet.. So for me it's still like I am waiting for the first of anything from the new band... Hopefully we get the album soon, and some kind of tour..

Guns N Roses was not alone.
In that sense, almost every band or group is not perfectly democratic.
Not many things in the democratic world are entirely democratic.

Still as for the music, apparently the head guy, Axl has tried to make it as democratic as possible this time, so hard as to make a member say "to a fault".

Don't you think that it is ironic that Axl is calling his new disc Chinese Democracy when he runs his band like a 3rd world dictator.  Axl Hussein?  Kim Jong Axl?  Axl Milosovic?

No I don't because he doesn't.

Read my post thanks.

If you know so damn much about how Axl runs the band then when the album coming out?  When is the tour?  What is the first single?  WOW, I had no idea we had such an insider here on this board.  Very impressive!!  Are you the new guitarist?  C'mon, Axl puts the dic in dictator.

I said read my earlier post. Or HK-47s post.

It's you who talk as if you know more than the members.

Is this thing ready for the dead horse section? :hihi: :hihi:

Great comeback PPbebe, what is that about a Third grade level?  I know you are but what am I?  I do not claim to know more than anyone else in regards to this band and album unlike many of the "band members" on this board.  God forbid someone say something bad about Axl.  Wake up and get a clue.

I don't get what you're trying to say. Perhaps you mean you're a 2nd grader?  ::)

Axl is not a dictator. That is what Tommy has said on several occasions. And you're claiming you know otherwise.

For instance, this bit is from one of '04 interviews. You can find many in "tommy interview thread". use the seach.

Q: Who's easier to work with, Paul or Axl?

Axl, by a long shot. I'll tell you why, and I can explain this really well, actually. Paul liked to do it his way. He would hear things a certain way in his head but couldn't tell you how it was going to happen. It would get kind of frustrating. He would have a vision and would fucking beat it to death trying to get there. With Axl, he doesn't really have his own vision. He likes to take everyone?s two cents and throw it into the soup, get everyone involved and kind of mold it that way. Axl could really take production credit on this record because he took the best of each of us on each song and crammed it together and made it a musical piece. I can't tell you how much I learned about collaborating with people while making the record, where Paul just kind of does it his way.

Q: It's interesting that you say that about Axl and his vision, because I would think most people would perceive the exact opposite?that he's got this strong vision and he's the dictator and this is how it's got to be.

Paul would be way more of a dictator than Axl. Axl is more of a collaborator, maybe even to a fault sometimes. He wants everyone involved. Part of that may have come from the old band, where everyone wanted him to sing their songs but didn't want to play the other guys' songs. It would be like, "I'm not going to sing on your song unless you play on his song," and then it becomes infighting and that kind of shit. That doesn't really keep a band together. On the new record, everyone's got a bit in there, their part of a song. It lends itself to us feeling a part of the whole record.


I enjoy little discussion with civil and rational people but not with a pest.
Commit no nuisance here.
Ta.

PPBEBE, that is my only problem with Axl. Lack of a clear vision as to what type of record he wants to make. I get the impression that the bandmembers have completed this huge library of music and instrumentals. Now, Axl being the leader and vocalist, is responsible for completing the material, tracklisting it, mixing it, and releasing it. However, with so much stuff recorded, it actually becomes a huge project and burden just to figure out what you want on a record. Now, considering Axl's relative instability and his eclectic taste in music, I believe all this time has been simply spent on Axl "trying to figure out how to make a record" (as Axl himself said). All leadership roles require focus, vision, and an element of goal setting. I really don't see any of those qualities in this project-at least at this point. Hopefully, I am wrong and Axl is laughing at me right now-knowing he has a couple of records ready to roll-but I see no evidence of that. "Cold silence has a tendency to atrophy any sense of compassion." :-\

I agree Madagas, it's pretty much like like having a pilot that has no idea where he's flying.

What does that interview segment clarify?  Of course Tommy is not going to say that Axl (his current employer) is worse that Paul.  That would be pretty stupid.  Besides, Tommy said that Paul was more of a dictator than Axl, not that Axl in no way resembles a dictator or has no tendencies.  Let me get this straight, Axl owns the band name, controls who is in and who is out of the band, controls the recording schedule, decides to tour or not, decides when to release the album, will decide what songs to release for singles, control the making of any videos, etc.  But wait, he lets the guys help decide if it should be a C chord or C sharp, I stand corrected!!  Fidel Castro has had lots of underlings and enablers through the years that he let make some small decisions but it was ultimately up to him I see the same parallels here. 

A hired person publicly reiterates his claim to be contributory to the project to make his tyrannical boss happy?

Wow that's smart of him, I don't think. ::)

Yes, it's quite obvious that you don't think.

"Commit no nuisance" again. Thanks.

Madagas n Falcon

Tommy has also said Axl's bloody goals made him fucking join the band.

So it's safe to assume the pilot has had the idea clear as as a light where he's heading for but not about how the weather changes on the flight and such.

I donno. He might be struggling with the words till the last minute?

Here's the bit.

Q: What do you feel about the fact that this is an entirely revamped thing? Guns I mean.

That's actually the reason I joined. I talked to Axl about what he wanted to do with this thing. It's never been done before, where the singer keeps the name while the other guys fucking quit. Just knowing what his goals were for the whole thing that I thought 'This is probably the ballsiest guy I've ever fucking played with, so I'm in.'

"With Axl, he doesn't really have his own vision. "
- Tommy Stinson

That pretty much backs Madagas' initial opinion which I agreed with.

"That's actually the reason I joined. I talked to Axl about what he wanted to do with this thing. It's never been done before, where the singer keeps the name while the other guys fucking quit. Just knowing what his goals were for the whole thing that I thought 'This is probably the ballsiest guy I've ever fucking played with, so I'm in.'"
-Tommy Stinson

This tells me Axl was more concerned in reinventing GNR with new players, not actually having a focused creative vision to convey his musical message.

They are hired... I think old gnr regardless of axls decissions was pretty damn cool

Yes, that's right, Axl takes care of the business side of the band and lets the musicians get on with recording the music. Is that so strange? Most of the things you mentioned there are responsibilities usually left up to the label and the band's manager, such as singles, videos and touring - Axl has simply ensured that he has the final say on those issues. Trust me, no major label lets the band's drummer budget the videos.

Not necessarely but Axl is the person who makes the music sound good. So without Axl i don't think that any of the old songs would be that good. Breakdown,Estranged,November Rain, Shotgun Blues (just to name few that comes to mind) all Rose's songs so that tells a lot!

PPBEBE, Falcon is correct-having an over all final destination goal is different than having a specific sound you want for the album-a specific date you want to complete the recording-a specific date you want to release the record-etc. One thing is for sure, Axl's sky is purple and the weather is always turbulent! Let's hope clear skies are ahead. :beer: It's Friday! Have a good weekend and quit responding to that knucklehead...... :hihi:

Pandora,

If I totally disagree with you, would you call that "breaking the rules" ?

Could you tell me which rules I did break so far ? I didn't insult anybody, I'm just posting my opinion. You treat it like a capital crime...


Jarmo,

I'm moving on as a matter of fact. Maybe even faster than you...
As nugnr is over, I think the next natural step should be a reunion !

That would be a pretty good move for Axl's career ! : ok:

The best he could do...

as far as axl doing everything.. Well some bands are different, like motley crue was more nikki writing everything, or KISS gene simmons was a big part of the process, both play bass,,, I see what gild1 is saying..  Back in the day for gnr I'm sure the over all choices for songs and shit like that was more of a group effort.. Now it seems like tommy or dizzy can be gone for a month/s or so and axl is taking care of everything.. Everything is finalized by him... So in many cases they are just hired players.. Sure they have insight in the making of the songs, but I am sure axl has the final say in every case on what stays or goes.. If he wants something re done they have to re do them even if they object.. Just like gilby was hired to keep the band going, and matt payed to hit drums. It doesn't matter because until I am able to buy an album then nothing is going on in my eyes.. There is no new gnr right now there is no stamp on music history they have made yet.. Sure we know nu gnr but who else knows?? Some know axl is making some album that never surfaces..

Puh-lease, don't act like we're the big bad guys and you're the poor little victim.  :'(

This has nothing to do with opinions. Lots of people here have varying opinions, and they've never been censored because they express themselves in a correct manner.

The rule you are breaking is basically posting the same thing over and over and over (repeat), often straying off topic in the process, just to hammer your opinion down our heads. Some people here have already pointed out to you that it's extremely tiresome and you should stop, but you don't really give a shit, do you?

You also regularly poke fun at members whose opinions differ from yours, ie people who don't wish for a reunion and don't whine "ooh, the old band is gone" all day and all fucking night. That, also, is against the rules.

Fairly easy to comprehend, isn't it?

Thanks for the tip. :D

a specific sound, that sounds Like, Pretty Hate or OK Computer?

Geez! I'm so glad that he didn't have a specific sound he wanted for the album.
 :hihi: :hihi:

He might have got no fixed musical vision ready beforehand but he would make it emerge through the process.

I think it is not necessarily a good thing that a band leader provides a solid vision for every piece of music before a single tone comes out of the band.
Perhaps it would be much much quicker and it could prevent the expansion of musical development from happening during the sessions and end up restricting the music within predictable limits.

Which music is more interesting?

I'd imagine a head with some abstract notion of the albums/project as a whole, which is flexible, would lead the band/the music better than the other with a concrete plan for every note would do.
Such a leader would get the most out of a band. 
Could be it's possible only when he can trust the individuals in his band.

If the chairperson had a resolution for every issue already, he wouldn't need to call a conference.

HK47, I beg to differ, Lars Urlich calls about all the shots for Metallica. ?He and Axl are quite similar in their totalitarian world view. ?They are also both rich, arrogant assholes but thier music kicks. ?

Ppbebe, so I suppose that you are an expert on GNR since you probably heard a song on the radio as a child last year.

Gilld1-just drop it-she's not talking to you-no sense in being an ass with every post. PPBEBE, nice response and I hope Axl has put it all together and the record is immaculate. If it is as good as OK Computer (one of my top five favorites of all time), I'll be more than happy! ;D

Fuck, if it gets released I'll be happy :hihi:

Maybe so, although from what we've heard so far, whether you like the songs or not you'd have to agree he's all over the place musically with no vision emerging.

Some like to portray that lack of focus as diversity, I don't.

I still think it goes back to the "pilot without a destination" theory.

I have to agree. From the limited "new" material we have heard thus far, it is pretty hard to determine a general "theme" or musical message Axl is trying to convey. The lyrics and intrumental aspects of all the new material is hardly comparable from one song to another, that in its self is a main reason why this process is taking so long. Axl has recorded such an overbearing amount of material over the years that skimming through it all and orchestrating what will go just where is very perplexing to our redhead.

 :D Yay, lets go n help him out, shall we?
I'd guarantee the album to be released hell lots later (n messy), if ever.
None of us speaks the same language, while most of us like to talk away with each other.  :hihi:


well, I'm positive that IRS, Oh my god and Chinese Democracy are sorta linked together in a sense.

I do agree that the music is all over the place and it's perhaps a cause for the gradual/sluggish proceeding.
nevertheless it's diversity.
And possibly the massive work is in the process of being concluded by now.

The strength of a chain is its weakest link, you know. :smoking:

Maybe so...


I agree, and that's what's kept me around.  I've held fast that what we've heard so far is (less Chinese Democracy and to a lesser degree, OMG) is extremely weak, borderline B side material.

I've never believed the "big guns" theory but that there's got to be something better awaiting us in the supposed 70+ songs we've heard about for eons.

I agree and I'd even add Rhiad/Riyadh and Silkworms. These songs have the same style, although I'm not a fan of them. But it'd be strange to hear this type of songs on the album together with The Blues or Madagascar..

Geez Christ 4 posts anyhow include a word "agree" in a row? we'll see the ice-cream hell very soon. :nervous:

I see what you mean although I don't consider the 3 materials I mentioned weak. I love the intenseness.
As I see it, those songs ought to get to their right place (on an album), to prove (you) their true potency.

Shame on me, I misused the proverb.  :-[
I wanted to say a weak side sometime turn to the strength?when it finally emerges from chaos and forms into the cosmos.


I agree that blues and mad are out of the link,
maybe Riyadh makes a connection with IRA, but I don't think thst and silkworms are in the same style. I see both of them as unknown quantities. Well It is rather odd that you(who likes Zep n Beatles) prefer the blues n maddy to IRS n Riyadh.  ???

Yes, I prefer Blues and Madagascar to the new 'rockers', although I prefer rockers to ballads in general. The new 'rockers' just don't do it for me, although I think that Axl does a very great job on CD, and IRS can be great, too.

I wasn't speaking of the 3 you mentioned as weak, I like CD and OMG, haven't heard a clear enough version of IRS to have any kind of objective opinion.

I was referring to the remaining tunes we've heard, Madagascar, The Blues, Rhiad and Silkworms.

You are hallucinating madly...
Slash and Izzy's contributions were huge as far music is concerned. Axl's contribution was more about the lyrics...


nugnr is not a gang, they are hired musicians. That means Axl is doing a solo album, like it or not. 8)

Because in your mind that's what it is and nothing can make you change your mind.




/jarmo

For all the people who dont get it ill give my opinion ( but remember its just my opinion ).

New GNR are not hired help, at least no more than Matt and Gilby/ also Tracie Guns was an original member so one of Duff, Slash, or Izzy would have to be listed as a hired gun aswell.

The current members of GNR have every reason to leave GNR because of the lact of activity ( that we know of ).
They have chose to stick with Axl because they believe in him and the music.That makes them a band to me, bands stick together even through the hard times.Robin appears to have vanished off the face of the Earth, my bet is that he is heavily involved in GNRs follow up to CD or getting ready for a future tour, we all know he wasn,t at his best for the last tour.

So to sum up: Every band will have members that could be considerd hired help.

The old GNR line up is history, for some that is sad,not for me.I look forward to the music that the new line up can give me ( gets on knees and prays its soon )

New GNR have my backing and support as do the old line up in the projects they choose. : ok:

Monomania?? Goes right against the spirit of Guns N' Roses essentially.  ;)

to Mikkamakka n Falcon
:headbanger:  :headbanger:

So me alone love Rhiad...
To me Rhiad is the most interesting material where I sense an embryonic new breed of Rock.
It may not breed true to type tho.

I love Rhiad too..sounds to me like  modern Led Zepellin.  :peace:

yeah, man! :headbanger:
it's like
Led Zepellin sans self-intoxication and indulgence.
Led Zepellin with the eyes open wide.

Hopefully, this thought is not just in my mind...


You know, there is a cover band in my neighborhood called "Black Rose" that plays every Guns N'Roses song better than nugnr...

When non-professional cover bands can play these songs better than nugnr, then we have a big problem ! :-\

really.. The live versions I have heard axl's whale sounds horrible.. One of the few live songs where he can only be saved by the studio.. Maybe retired zepplin tribute band

I'm sure you two up there n yours don't have to worry about Chinese Democracy. All you have to do is dip down in to your record collection and pull out Trixter, Kix, Ratt, Poison, and Faster Pussycat for never ending hours upon hours of endless enjoyment. Or go listen to the cover bands and live in the recollection of good old days  ::)

And mike I guess you know nothing about Zep.

To Madagas, I borrowed your great Axiam without asking you. I hope you don't mind.  :P

I know enough about zepplin to judge it to what I was comparing it too..  I think the song has terrible sound from what I have heard live.. It start with the ohs, then it sounds like a bunch of high pitch squealing..

So, mike you've heard enough Led Zeppelin live to judge it to what you are comparing it, right?   :confused:
I've seen only one film n heard a boot of Zep live. Honestly Riyadh sounds far better than them.

Explain me how come a bunch of high pitch squealing makes the band a "retired Zeppelin tribute band"?
Led Zeppelin will be a "half asleep GN'R" if GN'R makes it, I'd say That doesn't mean anything bad for Zep.

You should listen to the osaka one.

I am talking axl vs plant in one part of the song, the intro.. The two whales from the two songs. The ohh compared to the ahhhhaa just was what I was comparing it to in relation to zepplin..  Just the intro and nothing else..

So you can't compare the band/the music to retired Zeppelin tribute band just for how you think of the vocal part of "ohh". it's just a part of the whole vocal part and a part is not the whole band.
You should hear the whole song in question.
Again you're missing the wood for a tree, mate.

The only copy of Rhiad I've heard is Vegas '01 and it's really bad quality, I don't know if i'm allowed to post this but would anyone be so kind as to send me a better copy? Which version is the best one btw?

Ive misplaced it or Id send it, but my personal fav is the performance from London '02..its just too wicked. To me, Rhiad sounds like its inspired to a certain extent by D'yer Maker while were on the topic of Zeppelin. Not with just all the "ohs" but even the melodic vibe of the song with a reformulated edge.

That London 02 version is best, pretty good quality too. I only heard it a few times then the person who had it took it down. Chinese Democracy at that same show was incredible as well. PPBEBE, people like Mike just don't get it. They like their rock one way and one way only. Any type of change from a guitar- bass -drum set up is just too complicated for them. It's AFD retreads or nothing. Why people like Mike post about this anymore is beyond me-frustrated individuals on multiple levels.  :-\

Yeah, though Qualitywise Osaka one is the best version available, me too prefer the performance from London n pukkelpop for the great energy n atmosphere.
:rofl: :rofl:

Hey, We've got use for them. We need jokes. Well sometimes.


 :D D'yer Maker...that regga one?

To me the song sounds as if the "Immigrant" goes to "Kashmir" on a "night flight" but not on trip.

Immigrant Song meets Trampled Under Foot (electronic-keyboard groove part). Vocal is straight up Immigrant Song. Madagascar definitely has a Zep feel. The Blues is just UYI Gnr. Chinese Democracy sounds slightly grungy with the guitar, but , again, the electronic keyboard rhythm takes it to kind of it's own sound (probably the most original of the new songs). Silkworms is just industrial guitars with a punk/hardcore vocal as is OMG. Just my two cents.  :peace: