Here Today... Gone To Hell!

The Most Expensive Album Never Made (http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/06/arts/music/06leed.html?pagewanted=1)
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Axl Rose singing at the MTV Music Awards in September 2002.
By JEFF LEEDS  (http://query.nytimes.com/search/query?ppds=bylL&v1=JEFF LEEDS&fdq=19960101&td=sysdate&sort=newest&ac=JEFF LEEDS&inline=nyt-per)

Published: March 6, 2005

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Guns N' Roses receiving an MTV award in 1992, with Axl Rose, center, and Slash at the podium. ?

(http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/dropcap/w.gif)EST HOLLYWOOD, Calif.

IN the faint red light of the Rainbow Bar and Grill, Tom Zutaut sips at his drink and spills a bit of regret. It's been 19 years since he signed the then-unknown rock band Guns N' Roses to a contract with Geffen Records, where they turned into multiplatinum superstars. Back in those days, the Rainbow was their hangout of choice.

Years after he left the label, he returned in 2001 to try to coax Axl Rose, the band's magnetic leader and by then its only original member, into completing one of the most highly anticipated albums in the industry: an opus tentatively titled "Chinese Democacy." The deadline for turning in the album had passed two years earlier.

"I really thought I could get him to deliver the record," said Mr. Zutaut, who spent nine months trying. "And we got close."

He is speaking in relative terms. Mr. Zutaut is but one of a long series of executives and producers brought in over the years to try to conjure up the maddeningly elusive album - to cajole the reclusive rock star into composing, singing, recording, even just showing up. Like everyone else who had tried, or has tried since, Mr. Zutaut came away empty-handed.

Mr. Rose began work on the album in 1994, recording in fits and starts with an ever-changing roster of musicians, marching through at least three recording studios, four producers and a decade of music business turmoil. The singer, whose management said he could not be reached for comment for this article, went through turmoil of his own during that period, battling lawsuits and personal demons, retreating from the limelight only to be followed by gossip about his rumored interest in plastic surgery and "past-life regression" therapy.

Along the way, he has racked up more than $13 million in production costs, according to Geffen documents, ranking his unfinished masterpiece as probably the most expensive recording never released. As the production has dragged on, it has revealed one of the music industry's basic weaknesses: the more record companies rely on proven stars like Mr. Rose, the less it can control them.

It's a story that applies to the creation of almost every major album. But in the case of "Chinese Democracy," it has a stark ending: the singer who cast himself as a master of predatory Hollywood in the hit song "Welcome to the Jungle" has come to be known instead as the keeper of the industry's most notorious white elephant.

AT THE STROKE of midnight on Sept. 17, 1991, Guns N' Roses was the biggest band in the world. Hundreds of record stores had stayed open late or re-opened in order to cash in on the first sales that night of "Use Your Illusion," Vols. 1 and 2, the band's new twin albums. On the strength of that promotion - and the coattails of the band's blockbuster 1987 debut - the band set a record: for the first time in rock history, two albums from one act opened at Nos. 1 and 2 on Billboards national album sales chart. But by 1994 their fortunes had changed. After years of drug addiction, lyric controversies, onstage tantrums and occasional fan riots, their members had started to drift away, their lead singer had become bogged down in personal lawsuits, and "The Spaghetti Incident?," their collection of cover versions of classic punk songs, had been released to mixed reviews and disappointing sales.

The members of the band - what was left of it - reconvened at the Complex, a Los Angeles studio, in a massive soundstage with a pool table and a Guns N' Roses-themed pinball machine, to prepare for their next album, which Geffen executives expected to release some time the following year. But they quickly began suffering from an ailment that has proved fatal to bands from time immemorial: boredom.

"They had enough money that they didn't have to do anything," said a longtime observer of the band, one of the 30 people involved with the album who spoke for this article. He spoke on the condition of anonymity, as did many others who had signed a confidentiality agreement while working with Mr. Rose. "You couldn't get everyone in the room at the same time."

Mr. Rose had appointed himself the leader of the project, but he didn't seem to know where to lead. As Slash, the band's longtime guitarist, said recently, in reference to the singer's songwriting style: "It seemed like a dictatorship. We didn't spend a lot of time collaborating. He'd sit back in the chair, watching. There'd be a riff here, a riff there. But I didn't know where it was going."

Geffen was riding toward an uncertain destiny as well: its founder, David Geffen, retired, and its corporate parent, MCA Inc., was sold to the liquor giant Seagram, led by Edgar Bronfman Jr. With all those changes swirling, and with old Guns N' Roses material still ringing up millions in new sales, executives decided to leave the band alone to write and record.

A cover of the Rolling Stones' "Sympathy for the Devil," however, which was released as part of a movie soundtrack, would be the last addition to the original band's catalog. Slash quit the band in 1996; the drummer Matt Sorum and the bassist Duff McKagan were the next to go. Of the founding members, that left just Mr. Rose. But instead of starting something new, he chose to keep the band's name and repopulate it with new musicians. Geffen wasn't in much of a position to deny him. The label was on a cold streak and wagered that fans would still flock to the singer, even if a band had to be rebuilt around him.

Geffen wasn't in much of a position to prod him forward, either. In 1997 Todd Sullivan, who was then a talent executive for the company, sent Mr. Rose a sampling of CD's produced by different people, and encouraged him to choose one to work on "Chinese Democracy." Mr. Sullivan says he received a call informing him that Mr. Rose had run over the albums with a car.

The singer had encouraged everyone in the band's camp to record their ideas for riffs and jams, hours and hours of song fragments that he hoped to process into full compositions. "Most of the stuff he had played me was just sketches," Mr. Sullivan recalled. "I said, 'Look, Axl, this is some really great, promising stuff here. Why don't you consider just bearing down and completing some of these songs?' He goes, 'Hmm, bear down and complete some of these songs?' Next day I get a call from Eddie" - Eddie Rosenblatt, the Geffen chairman - "saying I was off the project."

Around the start of 1998 Mr. Rose moved the band that he had assembled to Rumbo Recorders, a three-room studio deep in the San Fernando Valley where Guns N' Roses had recorded parts for its blockbuster debut, "Appetite for Destruction." The crew turned the studio into a rock star's playground: tapestries, green and yellow lights, state-of-the-art computer equipment and as many as 60 guitars at the ready, according to people involved in the production. But Mr. Rose wasn't there for fun and games. "What Axl wanted to do," one recording expert who was there recalls, "was to make the best record that had ever been made. It's an impossible task. You could go on infinitely, which is what they've done."

As time and dollars flew by, pressure mounted at Geffen. The label's dry spell lingered, making them more dependent than ever on new music from their heavy hitters. "The Hail Mary that's going to save the game," the recording expert who spoke on the condition of anonymity explained, "is a Guns N' Roses record. It keeps not coming and not coming." The label paid Mr. Rose $1 million to press on with the album, with the unusual promise of another $1 million if he delivered "Chinese Democracy" by March 1 of the following year. Geffen also offered one of the producers Mr. Rose had recently hired extra royalties if the recording came in before that.

He never collected. The producer, who goes by the name Youth (his real name is Martin Glover), started visiting the singer in the pool room of his secluded Malibu estate, to try to help him focus on composing. But that collaboration didn't go any better than his predecessors' had. "He kind of pulled out, said 'I'm not ready,' " Youth said. "He was quite isolated. There weren't very many people I think he could trust. It was very difficult to penetrate the walls he'd built up."

Youth's replacement was Sean Beavan - a producer who had previously worked with industrial-rock acts like Marilyn Manson and Nine Inch Nails - and under his care the riffs and song fragments that the band had recorded slowly began to take shape. But costs were spiraling out of control. The crew rented one piece of specialized equipment, for example, for more than two years - at a cost well into six figures - and used it for perhaps 30 days, according to one person involved with the production.

Mr. Rose appeared sporadically, some weeks just one or two days, some weeks not at all. "It was unorganized chaos," the same person said. "There was never a system to this. And in between, there were always parties to go to, different computers Axl was trying out or buying. There were times when we didn't record things for weeks."

In late 1999 he invited Rolling Stone to preview about a dozen tracks. The magazine reported the album appeared "loosely scheduled" for release in the summer of 2000. In fact, Mr. Rose's visits to the studio had become so irregular, according to several executives and musicians involved with the band, that an engineer working with him, Billy Howerdel, and the band's drummer, Josh Freese, found time during that period to start their own project, the band A Perfect Circle, and to begin recording an album, "Mer de Noms," which went on to sell 1.7 million copies.

Label executives still clung to the idea that if they could just bring in the right producer, he could find a way to finish the album and finally bring a return on their ever-growing investment. They summoned Roy Thomas Baker, famed for his work with the art-rock band Queen. (Mr. Beavan, who was said to have tired of the project, soon bowed out.) But instead of wrapping things up, Mr. Baker decided that much of what the band had needed to be re-recorded - and painstakingly so, as he sometimes spent as long as eight hours on a few bars of music.

The process was drawn out even further after Mr. Rose hired two new musicians - the guitarist Buckethead, a virtuoso who wore a mannequin-like face mask and a KFC bucket on his head, and the drummer Brian "Brain" Mantia - whom the singer directed to re-record all the music that their predecessors had spent months performing.

Still, Mr. Rose seemed to be emerging from his sullen shell. In mid-2000, for what was thought to be the first time since the "Illusions" tour ended in 1993, he performed in public, with the Thursday night bar band at the Cat Club on the Sunset Strip. "He was psyched," recalled one person who worked with the band at Rumbo. "It seemed like it boosted him again, people still want to hear him."

At about 4 a.m on New Year's Day 2001, at the House of Blues in Las Vegas, he and the new lineup of the band finally unveiled some of their new material. "I have traversed a treacherous sea of horrors to be with you here tonight," Mr. Rose told the crowd, which received him with roars of approval. Warm reviews followed. Making the most of the moment, he took his band on the road, going to Brazil to play in the Rock in Rio festival.

With the band's return, Mr. Rose's machinery cranked up again. One internal cost analysis from the period pegs the operation's monthly tab at a staggering $244,000. It included more than $50,000 in studio time at the Village, a more modern studio where Mr. Baker had moved the band. It also included a combined payroll for seven band members that exceeded $62,000, with the star players earning roughly $11,000 each. Guitar technicians earned about $6,000 per month, while the album's main engineer was paid $14,000 per month and a recording software engineer was paid $25,000 a month, the document stated.

Label executives were losing patience. Interscope turned to Mr. Zutaut, the original band's talent scout. Could an old friend succeed where so many others had failed? He was offered a roughly 30 percent bonus, he said, if he could usher the project to completion within a year.

But Mr. Rose's renewed energies were not being directed toward the finish line. He had the crew send him CD's almost daily, sometimes with 16 or more takes of a musician performing his part of a single song. He accompanied Buckethead on a jaunt to Disneyland when the guitarist was drifting toward quitting, several people involved recalled; then Buckethead announced he would be more comfortable working inside a chicken coop, so one was built for him in the studio, from wood planks and chicken wire.

Mr. Rose was far less indulgent of his producers and label. Around Christmas, he ousted both Mr. Baker and Mr. Zutaut (who said there had been a miscommunication). It would be weeks before the singer would even allow an Interscope executive to visit him in the studio, according to people involved with the production. Interscope dispatched a senior talent executive, Mark Williams, to oversee the project. Mr. Williams declined to comment for this article.

If Mr. Rose appeared more remote, his vision of the project became more grandiose, people involved with the band said. He directed that music produced by Mr. Baker be redone again, those people said. He now spoke of releasing not merely one album but a trilogy. And he planned one very big surprise.

At MTV's annual awards show in 2002, publicists buzzed through the audience whispering about a big finale. And with just minutes to go in the broadcast, a screen lifted away to reveal the band and Mr. Rose, in cornrows and a sports jersey, looking strikingly young. The musicians burst into "Welcome to the Jungle," one of the original band's biggest hits, and the crowd went wild. But on television Mr. Rose quickly seemed out of breath and out of tune. He ended the performance, which included the new song "Madagascar" and the original band's hit "Paradise City" in a messianic stance, raising his arms and closing his eyes. He left the audience with a cryptic but tantalizing message: "Round one."

Round two never came. The band went on a successful tour, but in the hours after their triumphant Madison Square Garden appearance, Mr. Rose was reportedly refused entry to the Manhattan nightclub Spa because he was wearing fur, which the club does not allow. That killed the mood. He didn't show up for the band's next performance, and the promoter canceled the rest of the tour.

Months dragged on as the band waited for Mr. Rose to record more vocals. In August 2003 when label executives announced their intention to release a Guns N' Roses greatest-hits CD for the holidays, the band's representatives managed to hold them off with yet another promise to deliver "Chinese Democracy" by the end of the year. But the album, of course, did not materialize. And then the game was over.

"HAVING EXCEEDED ALL budgeted and approved recording costs by millions of dollars," the label wrote in a letter dated Feb. 2 , 2004, "it is Mr. Rose's obligation to fund and complete the album, not Geffen's." The tab at Village studio was closed out, and Mr. Rose tried a brief stint recording at the label's in-house studio before that too was ended. The band's computer gear, guitars and keyboards were packed away. Over a legal challenge by Mr. Rose, the label issued a greatest-hits compilation, in search of even a modest return on their eight-figure investment.

Released in March of 2004, it turned out to be a surprisingly strong seller, racking up sales of more than 1.8 million copies even without any new music or promotional efforts by the original band. The original band's debut, "Appetite for Destruction," which has sold 15 million copies, remains popular and racked up sales of another 192,000 copies last year, according to Nielsen SoundScan. It is a sign that Mr. Rose's audience still waits.

Mr. Rose is reportedly working on the album even now in a San Fernando Valley studio. "The 'Chinese Democracy' album is very close to being completed," Merck Mercuriadis, the chief executive officer of Sanctuary Group, which manages Mr. Rose, wrote in a recent statement. He added that other artists including Peter Gabriel and Stevie Wonder "have throughout their careers consistently taken similar periods of time without undeserved scrutiny as the world respects that this is what it can sometimes take to make great art." There's certainly more than enough material; as Mr. Zutaut says, even years ago "people felt like the record had been made four or five times already." But of course, rumors of the album's imminent release have circulated since almost the very beginning of the tale, more than a decade ago.

And at the center of that tale, now as then, is the confounding figure of Axl Rose himself. A magnetic talent, a moody unpredictable artist, a man of enormous ideas and confused follow-through, he has proven himself to be an uncontrollable variable in any business plan.

His involvement on "Chinese Democracy" has outlasted countless executives, producers and fellow musicians - even the corporate structure that first brought the band to worldwide celebrity. Even, in fact, the recognizable configuration of the recording industry as a whole, which since the band first went into the studio in 1994 has consolidated to four major corporations from six, and staggered amid an epidemic of piracy, leaving it more focused than ever on the bottom line, and on reliable musicians with a proven track record of consistent performance. The sort of rock stars that the original members of Guns N' Roses, who recently submitted a claim seeking $6 million in what were called unpaid royalties from its catalog, used to be. But which Mr. Rose, with his mood swings, erratic work habits and long dark stretches, no longer is.

He hasn't disappeared entirely. His voice can be heard on the latest edition in the "Grand Theft Auto" video game series, in the character of a grizzled 70's-style rock D.J. "Remember," he advises the radio station's audience, "we're not outdated and neither is our music."

Interscope has taken "Chinese Democracy" off its schedule. Mr. Rose hasn't been seen there since last year, when he was spotted leaving the parking area beneath Interscope's offices, where witnesses reported that a small traffic jam had congealed when attendants halted other cars to clear a path for his silver Ferrari. Mr. Rose punched the gas and cruised into the day.

What a sad thing to read. I dunno , it just makes me so sad to read that. Some things seem positive , I guess , but overall it paints a sad picture of Axl. I hope he can finally finish this project to his own satisfaction and finally be happy enough with it to put it out for everyone , including himself.

If he feels like "going away" afterwards the more power to him .. but for himself , even more then us , the fan .. I just hope he can actually get this album out.  : ok:

Good luck Axl!  :peace:

This is a great article. Nice find Booker.

My overall emotions are.  :-\   :no:   and  :drool:

Interesting read. A balanced view that withholds judgement and neither crucifies or canonises the man. There's nothing in there thats incredibly new or overly controversial, but some cute storys about the creative process of cd.

cheers for that, it's been a while since i've read a report on the production of the album without it being horribly biased or misinformed.

Do you really think the article withholds judgement?  I think that it doesn't withhold judgement, it's just more subtle about displaying it than most articles about Axl Rose.

Ali

Looks like the NY Times article is going to be in more papers than one.

I guess this is the same article as the one I was told is gonna be published on Sunday. I don't think they'll run two GN'R articles in the New York Times in just a few days.  :hihi:



/jarmo

:rofl: :rofl:

Great article Booker. Thanks for sharing.

The main thing I get from this is what Ive been saying all along. Axl is going to do this when he is ready. All the failed dates seem to be from the company forcing and pushing Axl to release the album when in reality he never wanted until he feels hes ready to do this.

Great read

Wow!! Great find. I bet this will be the same story that will run in Sundays NY Post.

Interscope has taken "Chinese Democracy" off its schedule. Rose hasn't been seen there since last year, when he was spotted leaving the parking area beneath Interscope's offices, where witnesses reported that a small traffic jam had congealed when attendants halted other cars to clear a path for his silver Ferrari.

If you would of asked me a year ago when CD is to come out I would say its closer than ever but, over the last year I have became very skeptical that CD will ever surface. Axl come on get your shit together and deliver!! I have almost came to the conclusion there will never be a CD unless Axl and the former members rejoin.

Rose is reportedly working on the album even now. "The 'Chinese Democracy' album is very close to being completed," Merck Mercuriadis, chief executive officer of Sanctuary Group, which manages Rose, wrote in a statement

Havent we heard this to many times. I guess I will try to stay positive and relay on the boots of the failed tour and the old albums to keep me going on this guy. Because it could be awhile before we get CD.

I don't get that when I read that at all.

I see no GN'R period. ?It's all Axl and he obviously isn't in a rush to put anything out.

No wonder why Tommy has been giving the info he has said. ?This article shows that the band has no clue what Axl is up to.

I hope I am wrong. ?If Axl carries on like this in reality, we won't have CD anytime soon. :no:


This article makes me realize CD isn't coming out. :'(

My opinion is that Axl has problems that we cannot even begin to relate to. I used to feel upset when the other guys left in the mid 90s, it seems like they had no choice. It completely shows that Axl has no idea what he wants. A total Bi Polar headcase, but Ill follow him till the day I die.

IMO, this article confirms allot of fears we've all had about axl and CD. ? :-[

Axl has no direction or motivation to put out his material and it's no suprise why we haven't seen the new album. ? Regardless of what band members have told us it's probably no closer than 5 years ago. ?The posturing by the band members is probably a way to encourage axl and to keep hope alive.

What i'm reading, axl has a million ideas and no idea of how to put them together. ? To make matters worse, he refuses to let others put any pressure on him to collect his ideas and make them into something (what a decent producer would do for an artist). ?He simply makes those people go away (see star trek).

His mental illness must be tremendously worse than we thought. ?

Maybe the Brian Wilson analogy isn't that far off and we should check back in 20 years.

Just fucking sad ........ ?"there's nothing sadder than wasted talent" ?- A Bronx Tale

Great article.
That's what? I've always thought. All genius are mad. Axl is definitely a musical genius, and his madness is proportional to his genius (another exemple: Mickael Jackson)

i'm sure axl appreciates that example.

that was just an example. I canTake "Prince" if you prefer. Prince is well known to be also extremely "special" in his head...

get a fuckin life. So has has bi polar? what does that have to do with you? Although from some of your posts, you seem to be a little "special" in the head too....

Very interesting. there were always rumors that axl had fragments of songs lying around everywhere but no cohesion pulling the threads together and, more importantly, no vocals.

However, I have to say that we know a number of songs do exist; the new guys heard a completed or near completed album late last year, so this harbinger of creative implosion can't be as bad as this article has purported.  Maybe circa 1998/1999 but not now.

This is probably the make or break year for Mr. Rose; he either proceeds with this project and awaits judgement or probably faces litigation from the label.  Something inside me says that no legitimate buisness would wait this long and invest this much money without some confidence that it would pay off.

Very good read.

Nothing new we hadn't really heard, but I do find the harping on the lack of direction to be very interesting. You started to get that feeling around he Illusions that GNR was a band lacking a true identity (at least musically). From what it sounds like there is a whole lot of different stuff out on the table, but that there is no direction in terms of putting together a cohesive album. That was my biggest personal fear about the project is that it is going to be too far from one extreme to another in terms of musical content. If he has that many ideas maybe he should release theme albums rather than 1 album of songs that will have no flow to them. That would be pretty cool actually. It sounds like he genuinely wants more out of this album than is possible to satisfy with just 15 songs.

Sorry, i meant final judgement. Obviously the writer makes judgement on his actions, but he doesnt go down the road of either saying

a) If ever released, CD will probably be the greatest album ever and axl declared a genius.

or, as is the case more often than not

b) Even if it is good, its still taken too long and cost too much. Axl is completely nuts.


Oh, and to all the armchair psychologists out there - Please shut up. Your ignorance of psychology is baffelling. You're trying to analyze a man you've never met on the basis of an article written by a man who has never met him. Add to that the fact that you're not even trained psychologists and i think you'll be able to second guess what my point is. You all seem to be able to guess axl's mental state.

Thanks for the article, great read but...

This album really isn't coming is it  :'( I'm sorry but I get bad vibes reading this, Axl planning a trilogy, I mean Jesus, we just want one album of new material but he wants to create this 3 disc masterpiece and do something that hasn't been done before. His visions for the album seem to change so much that I just fear he's never going to be happy with it. However IF it does ever come out I think we all know it is going to be something fucking amazing and that is what keeps us holding on, but for how much longer????

Not mad,  :confused: but influenced by childhood? Like he have a long police record and misdemenaour...
Thanks 4 that article ?:)

Hate to always go back to this, but Brian May was right. ?Axl has spent all this time looking for another Slash. ?A guy that can feel his emotion on guitar like Slash could. ?Also someone like Izzy to bring it together. ?Its like the album is Estranged in it's early stages. ?Rose reached a dead end with estranged, until he gave it to Slash, and Slash turned it into a masterpiece. ?Now he doesn't have the key ingrediants that could possibly understand him. ?All his men are hired replacements that can't gauge where he wants to go. ?Since it is his own show, he can't admit it now. ?This is just a horrible divorce, now he is looking for a new wife. ?His ex wife, Duff and Slash, are remarried and happy. ?He is more miserable now then ever. ?It is so sad. ?I hope he releases it one day, but he now stands all alone on the album. ?Everything now falls on him. ?He is crumbling under the pressure. ?Younggunner, you are just blindly defending him. ?He is too far gone. ?Too hurt. ?Too uninspired to get this focker out. ?Its not about when he is "ready." ?Its about right now he is so focking scared that he doesn't know what in the hell to do. ?I think he just needs somebody to love him for who he is. ?And he doesn't have that.............with anyone. ?He is just a very hurt person. ?I hope he gets better, weather he releases the album or not.

Axl admitted this point in an interview in 1999. That was either in "rolling stones magazine" or in "classic-rock". But we're in 2005, I don't know if he still thinks that.

probably true.  however, it would have helped if he had found that person at an earlier date.  that way he may have found a direction to focus.  I understand he is one of the greatest frontmen ever, but after a while I begin to wonder how much he has drastically changed to where he may no longer be the genious we once thought he was.  Its almost like we should just throw all his old shit at the window cause he is not that Axl Rose anymore.

This is a sentence I never thought i'd be reading  :nervous:

Gotta use that as my sig!

man, i wish i knew about this sooner. My husband was delivering next door to a NY Times building today. I could have asked him to sneak in and see if he could swipe a copy of the paper!  ;)  Seriously tho, if the two articles are pretty much the same, it doesn't sound lile the best news.

That article does not say anything new, we all know about what happened before 1999. Josh Freese told us and so did Finck when he left the first time. ?There was no real news given about what happened since 1999. Its just another article trying to diss axl without giving any new news, Why not interview the last few producers/composers axl worked with like Buckmaster or beltrami . Those are the guys that worked with axl last and would give a better idea of what state the album is in, don?t you think? That article could have been written in 1999 (since that is where it ends). I really do not see how it can be a new article since

 :no:


us :yes: :'(

Normally, this would be a better route to go, but in this case it's the gag order, bro.

Thanks Booker.  It was a sobering read.  They called the album a white elephant - but I'm holding onto the hope that it will be of value (to me at least).



Was that the most recent photo we saw?  Axl in braids and jeans with some other people standing in front of his car.

Insert Quote
Quote from: Smoking Guns on Today at 02:53:35 PM
This is just a horrible divorce, now he is looking for a new wife.  His ex wife, Duff and Slash, are remarried and happy.

This is a sentence I never thought i'd be reading 

Gotta use that as my sig!

Thanks buddy, I think its a great analogy.

Yes me too, although it did make me laugh out loud when I first read it, it just looked funny!

yup, it made me laugh. i knew i would catch some sheot writing that, anyway, whatever.  I downloaded the halifax 88 show from the bootleg section and it's pretty cool.  I hear that Scott and Dean are on good terms again.  I guess I wish for everyone to be cordial to each other again.  They don't have to get back together, just be nice to each other first.  I think Scott is getting sick of the GNR stuff.  He acted like a kid in an australian show when people put up an Axl banner.  He kicked them out. 

I don't really know what to make of this.  Any of you ever see the movie "Wonder Boys?"  It's about this burnt out writer who once released a well-regarded masterpiece and has been working on an epic follow-up, while teaching a writing class. 

Anyways, Katie Holmes plays one of his students, and she gets her hands on the manuscript (which takes up several large boxes)  without his permission, reads it, and then tells him "You know how you're always telling us that writing is about making choices?  Well, it's like you didn't make any." 

To me, that's what it seems like is happening to our hero, here.  A million different ideas emanating from a brilliant mind, almost faster than he can keep up with them.  A mind so full of creative force that there is no room left for any type of editing mechanism. 

Hate to play armchair shrink, here.  I really do.  Unfortunately I have no music to analyze, so I have to analyze the musician. 

It makes me sad...

pfft... no!

In this article it doesn't seem he is very much involved in makin the music, so is not an axl rose-album
It's an album made by musicians in which music they make, he has taken a like-in to and addin his voice to.? : ok:
Sure will have a lot foundation and songs started by axl on it too? :beer:

that is a terrific analogy. couldn't have expressed it better.

Really??? Where'd you read that?? That is good news. I hope one day STP reform and make music together, I like VR a lot but i'm a huge fan of STP and I prefer the music they made together (awaits the abuse  :nervous:  ).

much of this article has to deal with the initial stages of post illusion era. The same era we were discussing in another thread. This adds more validty to the argument that from 94-98/99, Axl didnt do much regarding the direction of the band. Which i swhat I have been saying all along. For all that are jumping on the train now...noe of this article has to do much with the present. It sheds light on what occurred during a misinterpreted era.

The same thing that makes you succeed, can also make you fail.

excellent analagy, & excellent movie. : ok:

I should call Slash and tell him Axl needs him, I'm not kidding I'll fucken do it. Scott needs to go back to STP and Slash to talk to Axl. I used to love STP and GNR, VR can be a side gig. We need those two bands back. We need to insist Slash and Axl hook back up, otherwise we'll writing back and forth forever. It will never sound right, feel right, or be right to Axl untell he get SLASH     back, thats whats going on. Axl won't know it til he hears Slash playing once again right next to him. The fucken world will be in rows lined up in the streets for days just to buy that ticket or album.       

I just don't get it! You as an ARTIST should know the tools that help you create! why throw them all away? ( Slash, Izzy and Duff ) 

I felt really depressed after reading that

then very fuckin ecstatic because it said axl has 20 A list songs

gotta take some positive out of the negative

because if this is true it really means maddy and the blues arent the big guns and he really in truly does have big guns

come on people, stop the pessimistic shit! Axl's ok, just unique and different than most

u cant rush creativity

wanna know why a lot of records suck?

because people try to force creativity

if axl is feeling it, he creates

if he isnt feeling it, he stays at the house

nothing wrong with that

You really think so , I hope your right! D, I hope your right! it's becoming a major joke.

Boom boom boom

waa waa waa ... dudes, chill out. Whether this little story came out or not, here we are, same as we always were. Blahdee blah blah. Take a step back and reavalute this article. What, it reconfirmed all your fears? How fucking lame. You think the fear that you feel is Axl's? Who the fuck are you, to be feeling sorry for Axl? This is W. Axl Rose. W.A.R. son. He probably sees this shit and laughs, " HA HA HA" while he takes his bubble bath and gets his dick sucked.

Enough is enough. Chinese D will be out when he is damn good and ready (or when the will of the force tells him). But Axl is a bad motherfucker. Not a "Charity Case."

They left you dick! How many thousands of times has that got to be stated?

Good post mate! Good outlook!

It was a good article I thought though! Really good read Booker Floyd!! Very Interesting! I still believe so whole heartedly that this album is very close to coming out! And I mean this year!!

I have mixed feelings when reading this...

How pretentious that can be?

As somebody pointed out with the "Wonder Boys" analogy, this scares the shit out of me. If he really wants to make the best record that has ever been made, it's very unlikely that we will ever see that record. Axl is the ultimate perfectionist, no matter how good the record is, there will always be finish touches to be worked on. That's the price you pay when you are an artist who imposes himself the highest expectations. If he was to change his frame of mind, he would release the album tomorrow. But if he still wants to release the greatest record ever, we will never see that record. Period.

However the good part is, there's a new GNR article in a few nation wide newspapers. This ain't no college newspaper or some rumour site, this is the NY times. If the times publishes this article is because it appeals to people. This may be a good sign. Why did the New York Times publish this article this year and not last year? or a few years ago?...the article jumps from Axl's comeback at the VMA's to present...that's a 3  year gap. Last year this article wouldn't have had the same interest because CD was not done, however this year may finally be the year ( otherwise The Times wouldn't have published it)

Either way, I do remain positive.

I don't think this article was a diss against Axl or the new GN'R at all. A real diss against GN'R would be no article at all--a complete and total lack of interest. Having an article about "Chinese Democracy" in 2005 shows that Axl Rose IS still relevant.

However, the content of the article was pretty depressing :'( I'm starting to think that there will never be "Chinese Democracy."

well i understand axl a bit more, but i still think hes a asshole. And whoever said scott weilend should go back to STP is pissed. VR are a great new band..one of the only true good band with a album worth buying. Unlike the shit at the moment like green day....franz ferdinand *shudder*.

VR are great they have this difference to them.

Buddha, YOU are the fucking man...a little coffee and laughter always makes for a good morning.  : ok: Regarding the article, I thought it was good and honest. If you take various bits and pieces of band members interviews and mix them with some consistent rumors, you get the same story. Tons of music and ideas, no completion. He's a crazy motherfucker-makes me want to hear the material even more. :-*

Well, it's hard to express myself with my poor english, but let's try...

I can't believe that it's so easy to influence so many people just writing a negative article.

It's very easy for them to make Axl look like a crazy and just interview some "anonimous" to create a stronger background for it. Did they bring up a fact, something that really shows that the things are really like this?

Oh, c'mon...

I am getting tired of waiting, Axl is a perfectionist, but even perfectionists do something. Nobody has ever taken 14 years for one album, we are not asking for a masterpiece we just want an album to listen to and enjoy. Fucking hell, is that too much to ask?

After reading this article one of the last comments on 'GnR:Behind The Music' sticks out to me......"in his mind he is searching for a perfection that might just not be possible".....maybe Axl needs to realise this and release the fucker, even though its imperfect in his mind.

Axl knows that, but he is too proud to recognize that point. He recognized that point just once, in an interview in 1999. Most of the time he has always avoided that point.Everytime he goes on stage, the crowd screams "Slash!". This is something he could NEVER fight against until Slash really comes back. This pressure of Slash shadow will always be there. Even if Jimmy Hendrix revived and came to GN'R, it also wouldn't "make it" for Guns N' Roses. Slash is waaaayyy too much important, too much legendary and too much unique, to be "replaced". It's not (only) a musical question, but a human one.

Slash and Co made VR! They would not quit, to go back to Axl. Forget about it! There is too much "complications!" for that to happen! At least in this Decade! So please!!! They are not a team anymore! And it is a loooong time since they were!

That's all it is, it's the guitar and the vocals that'll perfect this alubm. Axl doesn't have to prove that to anybody, you can hear it for yourself.  I'm not crying! it's a joke! I'm laughing at all the stories I've read about people that have work with Axl in the past decade. Nobody really knows what's going on! I don't see Slash comming back either, but the true facts hurt. 

Slash and Duff would and will go back to Axl in time, if Axl doesn't kill himself before that time.  What they are doing with Scott is making great music.  But after there three records and years of touring, they will have proven themselves as great muscians outside of GNR.  Time heals all wounds and they will get those songs they wrote with Izzy and make one hell of an album.  But right now they are having too much fun playing gigs and writing new music to even think about getting involved with Axl.  They will all play together again one day.  And to GunsUK, in a recent article, Scott talks about his promising friendship that has blossomed again with Dean Deleo.  So yes, Scott will write with him again too.  Its like VR is the vehicle to make them who they are again..............Given time they may be ready for what made them famous the first time around.  Hell, how awesome would it be if STP and GNR did a tour together, and maybe did some VR tunes!

 :rant:estranged33, your so lost, I KNOW THEY LEFT YOU DICK! I was at Slashes house and Axl never called Slash. Axl blew it. Slash was willing, to much time went by Slash had to move on.   

Smoking Gun, that would nice! that would fucking nice!

That would be nice is what I was saying.

If you want Axl and Slash to get back together you obviously haven't been following what they're saying for the past few years.

"For the fans to attempt to condemn me to relationships even only professional with any of these men is a prison sentence and something I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. I'd say my parole is nearly over. I'm practically a free man and if you don't like it you'll have plenty of time to get used to the idea."

What else would expect them to say.  They talk like this cause they think they feel this way, however, if they ever thought why they felt that way, they would realize there is too much shit between them to just forget it.  The reason will lead them back to the truth that they all belong together.

I don't think you need to be a psychiatrist to recognize when someone is mentally ill. ?Axl obviously is, and to my mind that's a far better excuse to his behaviour past and present, than he's a "perfectionist" or a "diva" or etc.

I don't think axl is waiting around for a reunion as you seem to suggest. There will never be a reunion until both parties agree to it; right now, neither side sees the benefit of rehashing old relationships.

You always fail to miss the poin. WHo the hell said Slash wuld be "replace/overshadowed or forgotten" in gnr or musical history? Get a fukin life dude. Slash is one of the best guitarists ever. Just because Axl wants a new band doesnt mean hes trying to overtop it with some1 better than Slash. They went in different directions. Case Closed.

When Axl says Fuck you to people who call out Slash he wants them to shut the fuck up. WHy are they there then? When Axl has a request about not talking about the past and old members its because he doesnt want that to be the focus. Its over so let it be. Instead of VR doing that they do the opposite. Thats why GNr is basically mentioned in every dam article. Axl wants it to be about the new band.

As for all the people who are worried about this article. REad it again!. Its nothing new! Its the same shit we already knew reagrding the post illusion era. The only difference, is it provides a lot of descriptions!. Which makes the story a great read.

I think a lot of you are thinking this has to do with the current state of GNR. It has to do with 94-2000. AFter that we dont know the state of gnr. Except that they had a solidified band, toured, and did much more recording.

This article brought a descriptive account of the state of gnr managemnet and Axl during a time when GNR were in shambles. WHy are you getting your panties all up in a bunch? Relax, as some have said already, we are in the same situation as yesterday before this article. The only difference is we now have some cool insight on what went on during a certain period of time.

Maybe Axl will be runnin over or burning a stack of NY Times newspapers tomorrow morning as he blasts "SuckerPunched" in his sick car....

Very good read Booker. Thanks for the article.

Whats disturbs me is the music appears to be the last thing on Axl's mind during GNR's downtime period up until the late 90's. His comeback essentially started a few years ago with CD, The Blues and the other songs released on tour. Thats kind of worrying, because Axl didnt always appear to have it together during the 2002 comeback. If Axl's able to succesfully return he  needs a full emotional turnaround, and i dont know if thats possible anymore.

Exactely. But you have to realize that the reason for this is because Axl wanted to revamp the whole thing whereas the company wanted Axl to get thing sin motion right away because they just cam eoff the successful illusions. The reocrd company wanted to ride that wave.

But what they failed to realize is Axls desire to create something that will give the old band its run fir the money and that can represent GNR well. I think thats what most peopel are missing here. IU have been saying this from day 1, Once Axl decided the old was history he was going to scrap the whole thing and start anew. He had to rebuild it back up. From 94-99ish the whole thing wa sin dissarray like the article pointed out. Axl just seeing what he had and began there.

You hit the nail right on the head! That is essentially what I have been trying to drive hom here to everyone day in and day out with all these arguments we have here at the board.

The time when things got serious and focused with this comeback was around 2001. When Axl finally assembled a group of guys that mesh musically and on a personal level. Thats when Axl felt he could have a band that could musically and band wise match the old band. Thats when the bits and pieces from the late 90's began to get worked on. Thats when Bucket came and added even newer material. When arrangers,etc came in. During 2001- till now.

I have been trying to tell everyone this since Ive been here. That this thing really began to pick up speed in the 2000s. This article backs up that theory and explains why its "taken so long".

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/06/arts/music/06leed.html

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/jarmo

Ive got the full article...im going to post what was left out...much more interesting stuff brb...

Wow so much more stuff. Jarmo maybe you can just replace the current article with the original becuase there is tons of info that didnt make the 1 we have here. Great info on a lot of things!


 But Mr. Rose wasn't there for fun and games. "What Axl wanted
to do," one recording expert who was there recalls, "was to make the best
record that had ever been made. It's an impossible task. You could go on
infinitely, which is what they've done."

As time and dollars flew by, pressure mounted at Geffen. The label's dry
spell lingered, making them more dependent than ever on new music from
their heavy hitters. "The Hail Mary that's going to save the game," the
recording expert who spoke on the condition of anonymity explained, "is a
Guns N' Roses record. It keeps not coming and not coming."
By one count, the band kept roughly 20 songs it considered on the A list
and another 40 or so in various stages of completion on the B list.

All that material, however, didn't do much to reassure the band's label.
"In 1998 and 1999 you start getting a little bit nervous," Mr. Rosenblatt,
the executive who led the outfit after David Geffen's departure, said
delicately. "Edgar Bronfman picks up the phone more than once. He wanted to
know what was going on. You unfortunately have got to give him the answer,
you don't know. Because you don't." To take the pressure off, Mr. Rose's
manager at the time presented the idea of releasing a live album from the
original band, which. Mr. Rose's crew began to assemble.


Mr. Rose was said to be crushed by the departure of his Geffen contacts -
just as "White Trash Wins Lotto," a musical satire that sent the singer up
as a star-eyed hayseed forced to learn the harsh lessons of the music
industry, was developing a cult following in Los Angeles. When he missed
his March deadline, however, he set a pattern that would repeat itself for
years to come: a flurry of energetic activity, followed by creative chaos
and a withdrawal from the studio.

That June he allowed a version of the old Guns N' Roses hit "Sweet Child O'
Mine" that begins with the original band playing but almost seamlessly
shifts into the new band to appear on the soundtrack of the film "Big
Daddy." Later that summer he agreed to release his first original song in
eight years, the industrial-flavored "Oh My God," for another soundtrack
and introduced it in a commercial on MTV. (Mr. Rose fussed over the song so
much that he, Mr. Iovine and studio technicians stayed up until nearly dawn
adjusting the final mix, according to people involved.) News of its release
stoked speculation that an album might follow. But it was panned by many
critics and quickly forgotten.

In late 1999 he invited Rolling Stone to preview about a dozen tracks. The
magazine reported the album appeared "loosely scheduled" for release in the
summer of 2000. In fact, Mr. Rose's visits to the studio had become so
irregular, according to several executives and musicians involved with the
band, that an engineer working with him, Billy Howerdel, and the band's
drummer, Josh Freese, found time during that period to start their own
project, the band A Perfect Circle, and to begin recording an album, "Mer
de Noms," which went on to sell 1.7 million copies.


Label executives still clung to the idea that if they could just bring in
the right producer, he could find a way to finish the album and finally
bring a return on their ever-growing investment. They summoned Roy Thomas
Baker, famed for his work with the art-rock band Queen. (Mr. Beavan, who
was said to have tired of the project, soon bowed out.) But instead of
wrapping things up, Mr. Baker decided that much of what the band had needed
to be re-recorded - and painstakingly so, as he sometimes spent as long as
eight hours on a few bars of music.

The process was drawn out even further after Mr. Rose hired two new
musicians - the guitarist Buckethead, a virtuoso who wore a mannequin-like
face mask and a KFC bucket on his head, and the drummer Brian "Brain"
Mantia - whom the singer directed to re-record all the music that their
predecessors had spent months performing.

Still, Mr. Rose seemed to be emerging from his sullen shell. In mid-2000,
for what was thought to be the first time since the "Illusions" tour ended
in 1993, he performed in public, with the Thursday night bar band at the
Cat Club on the Sunset Strip. "He was psyched," recalled one person who
worked with the band at Rumbo. "It seemed like it boosted him again, people
still want to hear him."

At about 4 a.m on New Year's Day 2001, at the House of Blues in Las Vegas,
he and the new lineup of the band finally unveiled some of their new
material. "I have traversed a treacherous sea of horrors to be with you
here tonight," Mr. Rose told the crowd, which received him with roars of
approval. Warm reviews followed. Making the most of the moment, he took his
band on the road, going to Brazil to play in the Rock in Rio festival.

With the band's return, Mr. Rose's machinery cranked up again. One internal
cost analysis from the period pegs the operation's monthly tab at a
staggering $244,000. It included more than $50,000 in studio time at the
Village, a more modern studio where Mr. Baker had moved the band. It also
included a combined payroll for seven band members that exceeded $62,000,
with the star players earning roughly $11,000 each. Guitar technicians
earned about $6,000 per month, while the album's main engineer was paid
$14,000 per month and a recording software engineer was paid $25,000 a
month, the document stated.

Label executives were losing patience. Interscope turned to Mr. Zutaut, the
original band's talent scout. Could an old friend succeed where so many
others had failed? He was offered a roughly 30 percent bonus, he said, if
he could usher the project to completion within a year.

But Mr. Rose's renewed energies were not being directed toward the finish
line. He had the crew send him CD's almost daily, sometimes with 16 or more
takes of a musician performing his part of a single song. He accompanied
Buckethead on a jaunt to Disneyland when the guitarist was drifting toward
quitting, several people involved recalled; then Buckethead announced he
would be more comfortable working inside a chicken coop, so one was built
for him in the studio, from wood planks and chicken wire.

Mr. Rose was far less indulgent of his producers and label. Around
Christmas, he ousted both Mr. Baker and Mr. Zutaut (who said there had been
a miscommunication). It would be weeks before the singer would even allow
an Interscope executive to visit him in the studio, according to people
involved with the production. Interscope dispatched a senior talent
executive, Mark Williams, to oversee the project. Mr. Williams declined to
comment for this article.


The band went on a successful tour, but in the hours
after their triumphant Madison Square Garden appearance, Mr. Rose was
reportedly refused entry to the Manhattan nightclub Spa because he was
wearing fur, which the club does not allow. That killed the mood. He didn't
show up for the band's next performance, and the promoter canceled the rest
of the tour.

Months dragged on as the band waited for Mr. Rose to record more vocals. In
August 2003 when label executives announced their intention to release a
Guns N' Roses greatest-hits CD for the holidays, the band's representatives
managed to hold them off with yet another promise to deliver "Chinese
Democracy" by the end of the year. But the album, of course, did not
materialize. And then the game was over.

"HAVING EXCEEDED ALL budgeted and approved recording costs by millions of
dollars," the label wrote in a letter dated Feb. 2 , 2004, "it is Mr.
Rose's obligation to fund and complete the album, not Geffen's." The tab at
Village studio was closed out, and Mr. Rose tried a brief stint recording
at the label's in-house studio before that too was ended. The band's
computer gear, guitars and keyboards were packed away. Over a legal
challenge by Mr. Rose, the label issued a greatest-hits compilation, in
search of even a modest return on their eight-figure investment.

Released in March of 2004, it turned out to be a surprisingly strong
seller, racking up sales of more than 1.8 million copies even without any
new music or promotional efforts by the original band. The original band's
debut, "Appetite for Destruction," which has sold 15 million copies,
remains popular and racked up sales of another 192,000 copies last year,
according to Nielsen SoundScan. It is a sign that Mr. Rose's audience still
waits.

Mr. Rose is reportedly working on the album even now in a San Fernando
Valley studio

There's certainly more than enough material; as Mr. Zutaut
says, even years ago "people felt like the record had been made four or
five times already." But of course, rumors of the album's imminent release
have circulated since almost the very beginning of the tale, more than a
decade ago.

fascinating stuff!

unfortunately its not as simple as laying down some tracks. The whole Bucket part is interesting and now I understand what Axl said in regards to catering to Bucket on many occasions. I think this article brings a new light into this whole process. I hope many of you read it fully and realize that this is much more about record companies, directions, etc than just perfection. Perfection is  a huge key but the whole behind the scenes thing is very interesting. Axl is stubborn and when things dont go his way hes going to make you pay.

1 thing we all know for sure..

Axl isnt going to give in to any deadlines until he feels its ready. Meaning we are going to get GNRS best all out effort. Whatver that equates to remains to be seen but we are going to get 150% and then some.

Awesome, much more in depth. I like the fact that Interscope gave him the boot. He will run out of money eventually and have to release it. : ok:

That whole thing with the chicken coup is just downright bizarre.

Reading this thing it makes the guy sound like a complete whack job. It doesn't really bash him, but to an average person who might just pick up the paper on Sunday morning he comes off as being a lunatic and fanatical. They even credited the tour cancellation on him being refused entry into a club, which coming from the NY Times I am going to go out on a limb and put some credence into.

At least the label has finally given him the boot and cut him off. More than anything, that should motivate him to finish it. Although if he couldn't finish it with what sounds like was the top of the line stuff ever created, I can't see how he will be more efficient working with stuff that is not up to par with the stuff they took away from him. This to me though is the most positive sign of the entire article, as there is no more free lunch.

Still sounds like the music is all over the map though. He should just release multiple albums at one time in that case and just see where things fall.

On a side note, so much for that theory about OMG being an unfinished rough cut we have heard from people about all these years. It sounds like from the way they portray it OMG sounds exactly as Axl wanted it to as it seems like a lot of work went into its production and release. Doesn't sound as if it was an unfinished track as has been somewhat previously reported.

This is perhaps the best article written abbout post UYI GnR I've ever read...there's no real news, per se, but it is a finely crafted restrospective of what is a pretty sad tale, IMO.

Maybe that has already happened, hence the need to sell his ownership of the back catalog to infuse some captial into this project. If he really was cut off, I think that it is quite possible that is why he did that given I could never see him giving up control like that unless he really needed the money.

Performing on GTA, selling his back catalogue, this hombre needed dinero badly. All I know is youll get even more money if you release it homeboy. :peace:

Fuck Me. Geffen stopped Funding Him and He had also A lawsuit From Slash and Duff.
That is probably the reason he sold his back/new Catalog.... To Gain more Money For this Fuckin Project....

I Just hope everything  turns up Well With This Guy....I never thought He was in trouble....
I don't Wonder Why Buckethead left after Geffen Stopped Funding Them.....

Sad Article...

This article made me really sad. I don't know if this album will be ever released, but for sure, it's Axl's swan song.  :-[

And we have all the best hearties. Robin, Tommy, Brain, Dizzy Chris, Richard....

Thanks Booker, jarmo n younggunner I'm reading the article carefully later.


Axl is "steady" and Chinese D will be "go" when we're damn good and ready.

I took various bits and pieces of band members interviews and mix them with some consistent rumors including articles and other fans views, plus most importantly, the lyrics of new songs and then I got this bloody idea. Just a thought though.

For instance, this bits of band members interview

the new stuff youngunner posted got me excited because it ties up some loose ends

he had to sell his catalogue to fund this

there is no way axl will spend this much money and time to not release it

this article reaffirms my theory that CD will be the greatest hits u have never heard type of cd where every song will have the makings of a top 40 smash.

I am more psyched than ever after reading that!

Optimism is one thing.

Realism is quite another....

Axl Must be really Confident with his material For Keep On funding This Project from his own pocket and had to sold his back catalog...

I am too more excited for this release..... if it ever happens.....

Im just saying Falcon, its took this many years, he has completed the record 5 times over

eveyone knows during a recording session, most bands have 3 or 4 hits, so if he has 20 A list songs that makes me very optimistic

For example ill give u Aerosmith.

instead of releasing the records they did

imagine if they took the best from Pump,Get a Grip and Nine Lives and made one huge cd out of the best material?

what if GNR had done this and took the best from Appetite,Lies and the Illusions and made one super Cd?

i think this is what axl is doing

he is inspired,has intense writing sessions, when the creativity wears off, he takes a year or so off, starts new sessions, takes the best material from that etc etc etc.

Thats my theory and im stickin with it.

20 A list songs means axl really has big guns. i find that encouraging.

what if GNR had done this and took the best from Appetite,Lies and the Illusions and made one super Cd?

I always considered Appetite to be, One super CD, face it can AXL actually make a recorde better than that, Ill guess we will have to wait and see.

imagine if a band came out with this tracklisting


1.welcome to the jungle
2.its so easy
3.nightrain
4.dont cry
5.you could be mine
6.mr brownstone
7.paradise city
8.civil war
9.patience
10.november rain
11.dont damn me
12.locomotive
13.estranged
14.sweet child o mine
15.rocket queen
16.coma
imagine if that was a debut cd from a band

now think if CD is up to snuff or close to that

i know that wouldnt fit on one cd but just theoretically speaking

This makes me really wonder how the hell the Illusions tour went on for over two years. If his mood and disposition can change in a matter of seconds I dont know how he kept his head together for that time period.

This is totally going to be Axl's Swan Song. When the album comes out he should never book a tour. Only book a few dates at a time. Only make videos if he feels its needed to further express the song. He is never going to be #1 again, the market is just too different.

WOW!

I thought that article was fantastic! I love reading about what went on behind the scenes ie, the 90's the Buckethead fiasco etc!

Thanks!

That's mind blowing.... that completely changes my whole outlook. I can't wait to hear it! Thanks Younggunner, hope you go 4 for 4 today. 

While that tracklisting is great, the album would have no feel what so ever. I think albums should be band representations of that time period.

For example Physical Graffiti was an incredible album, and it was recorded with b sides and leftovers and new material from 1970-1974. While it was an amazing album I always thought the flow and mood was off balance. Having Kashmir on the same album as Boogie With Stu was :confused:

Leave it to booker to leave out the important stuff

In his defense, I dont think he had the entire original copy. So I wouldnt really blame him....

Whoe ever said it was an uncompleted track??

I still dont understand why people are sad or whatver about this article. Everyone should be happy because this whole article basically has a lot of answers to many questions. FOr starters, why has it taken so long and when has this project actually began....

I think this is one of the best articles ever written about CD. Provides much detail and explanations. Now its your job to put the pieces together and th epuzzle will take shape....

This new article only LOWERS the chance that CD will come out in the next 5 years. All the article does is add more pressure to a situation that needs the pressure reduced,not intensified. I think everyone needs to leave Axl alone for another year or so and maybe he can wrap CD up. If people keep the pressure on, he may end up scrapping CD and starting fresh on something else. I already have a feeling he's changed the album title, and the next step after that will be changing the music thats on that cd.

Your going on the premise that Axl still hasnt done anything up to this point. Most of this article has to do with what Axl did from 94-2001. From 2001 it seems to be a different ballgame. So I think the album has been done now its on him to release it. Theres so much stuff to get into but in summary I think it all began to take shape from 2001 till now.

what makes you think that from now 2001 until now is a "whole different ballgame"? All we've had in that 4 year time period is 5 new songs on bootleg and years of rumours and speculation.

because from that time till now Axl has had the band he thought would work and had a direction. Im not saying that the album can drop and day now but the status of GNR is not like it was from 94-2000. Theres a plan in place. Its up to release it. He didnt give in to company pressures in the late 90's for a reason. Hes going to  do it on his terms. When all the stars are aligned and when things feel right in his mind. Case closed. No1 can control that.

All we can hope for is that after they make thier way through all that chaos and cheklists... an extrodinary album will be heard. My guess is that our waits and frustrations will be rewarded. I completely understand if one might think otherwise. But until "things are right" in the mind of Axl we have to wait until we can hear.

It was a different time for several reasons.

1) Buckethead and Brain joined
2) Roy Thomas Baker came into the fold and things really started going on the album
3) They were a solidified band who had live shows under their belt, they were vibing off each other
4) Axl said that the stuff they were working on during that time was forcing a lot of the other material that they had recorded to be shelved..because they liked the new stuff more.

2001-2005 I think was the main chunk of Chinese Democracy.

1994-1998 Scrapped because original members were still there.

1999-Scrapped, Freese and Tobias parts re-recorded.

 ???

That would explain why I gave a link to the site where you could read if for yourself, right Genius?  : ok:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/06/arts/music/06leed.html?adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1110060084-Obh007TvLZky7etApAiI/A

2004..Buckethead leaves. 2004-???? Buckethead parts re-recorded. How many years will this take?

I would have liked to have seen some sort of comment made about the status of the band's guitarists. Whether Bucket will be replaced, and if not what the plan was. He talked about taking the recording to the next level in his press release, but from the sounds of it there had been plenty of recording done already. I almost don't want any new guitarists coming in now as it seems he loves to keep adding new stuff for the sake of adding new stuff. Maybe once there is a set line-up we can get closer to wrapping this thing up.

I thought it absolutely had to be out this year, now I am not so sure. I agree it will be out when he says it will be out, but I am not sure past releasing it how much we can really expect from him. From all accounts of those who seemed to have some idea of what has went on he doesn't sound like a guy who we can expect to tour for 2-3 years like we had all previously talked about. We should probably just gear ourselves to be happy getting some music.

Enough. He was wrong. The original source didn't publish the whole thing.




/jarmo

Well... we're either going to get a great album.... or one hell of a movie some day.: ok:

+1. If only some people can understand that point...

I think the main problem with the release of CD is that Axl has an ego the size of the universe and he can't accept the fact that he will never make the perfect album, ever. He should release it now before he gets a swift kick in the ass by an anounymous GNR fan (what?!?) possibly me.

I disagree.? Some of the best albums every made have been done on shoe string budgets and cut in a matter of months, if not less!? Just because you take a decade and spent millions of dollars on something doesn't been it's going to be good.? I've said it before on this board and I will say it again. Rock & Roll, true Rock is not some overproduced, every single note perfect science project crap.? True rock is all about emotion and not being "perfect".? I REALLY don't think we will see CD for another 20 years, or until after Axl is dead.? And IF CD does ever come out, it will be waaaay overproduced and sound to perfect.? ROCK AND ROLL IS NOT PERFECT!!

And maybe I am just too "old school" for my own good.  But if Aerosmith did put the "hits" from all those albums you mentioned on just one album. I would STILL take Toys in the Attic any day over that. 

Well while I agree that rock n roll isnt and shouldnt be brain surgery. I dont think Axl is making a traditional rock n roll album.

I agree with you Chad. This CD isn't likely to be a classic. Sure, its gonna sell millions and will always be considered the most mysterious album of all time, but I highly doubt the quality of CD. When you look at the time spent on CD,all the different band members,different producers,etc, CD is not looking to be a masterpiece. Another troubling fact is how it took so many years before Axl was able to put vocals on CD. That was the main reason Moby quit producing CD: What good is it to have all that music if you cant put any vocals to it. If anyone ever writes a book about the making of CD, I believe the book will probably be better than the actual CD itself.

From the jist of this article, it seems Axl's still working on the vocals. The music does sound like it should be special, but maybe Axl is unsure his vocal harmonies will stand up to this unbelievable music amassed over the years. That one producer spent hours over several bars of music in one song, shows they must have believed in it. But can Axl sing with the music so that he wont sound like the weak link in his own band? That seems to be his main problem.

exactly.. The hearing of computers in use and everything else what kind of rock is that? He said he had big guns years n years ago then he's still working on it redid the shit 5-6 times.. Anyone can make a better album if they just keep working on the same shit over and over.. It's a fucking boring soap opera, all everyone does is say it's a plan it's this it's that.. Sounds like someone who doesn't know what he's doing and has no faith in his work.. How many musicinans for hire have come through?/ 13 million ?tons of people on this.. Sounds like a real group project.. Everybody and their mother has been involved,, He's just a spoiled pampered millionaire who has endless time and gives not a care about his fans.. One album, that's all anyone wants and he can't deliver, instead he has people trying to bend over backwards and he fucks them over, he hired all these guys and they never get to do anything with the band.. Sounds like one go maniac trying to make this super album while fucking everyone else over..
I just pray none of his music sounds anything like those boots..

 ??? You're prety severe. In my opinion, exept the horrible "oh my god" and "silkworms", the rest of the new material sound great, especially "the blues" and "madagascar". Ryhad also sounds very good. There's a lot of potential.

This article made me think a lot. I didn't even realize that I am waiting this long. I am following this thing since Oh my god was out. ?I thought Chinese Democracy were the songs up to 2001. I guess in past 4 years new things were done. I am not so passionate about it anymore. I am not optimistic about it. Where are the times I've hardly waited to hear studio versions of Madagascar or Chinese Democracy. But on the other hand, this project is huge and still growing and all the mystery behind it... grandiose. It is weird that such an indepth article came so late. Why is there so little coverage or status of this album from the media, it seems to me they are not even researching? I have never read any article stating about trying to get an interview with Axl, I guess he would not give it, but I also think there ain't really big demand to get it. I know we don't get any info from the GN'R camp, but what's scares me is that media in general isn't even trying to get it. ?This article is the first indepth, researching type of article we got and is not hype-ing the album at all, it really reads as a swan song. If it ever comes out, one thing is for sure, Axl could really pick just the songs that seem timeless to him, considering all the time it is in the works. As somebody already stated, I am following this thing till the day comes and further... ? ?

Rock of the 2000's. NOt 1987 anymore my friend ?:no:

3 yrs ago to be exact

You and your 1500 posts dont seem to be on your merry way anytime soon

Sounds to me like some1 who had a plan from the beginning. The fact that he went against what the company was telling him to do speaks volumes that he wasnt ready. He had something in mind and hes stuck with it. If he had no plan and was utter chaos why the fuck would all of these countless attmnpts be shot down? If Axl really had no plan he would have been convinced along the way. Axl has chosen to stay the course with his master plan, whatver that may be....no reocrd exec, music producer, or stuck in the old days fan is going to dictate to Axl fukin ROse when to release his bands big, much anticipated comeback album.

The guy wanted to rebuild something beofre any major groundwork was laid down. His goal is to make the ultimate music. If thats not a plan i dont know what is.

Instead of praying that the songs you have heard dont sound like those bootlegs you should really be praying that the songs you have hear are the best songs hes got. If not...your gonna make yourself look like an even bigger jackass than you are now...yea, yea I know, you want Axl to succede.

Mike..you make a very good point. We have stuck by Axl all these years for what?? Hell, I remember loving GNR when they were the most uncool thing on the planet!!! And this is how Axl pays us back for our undying loyalty!! It's really a shame!! Sometimes I wish I didn't give a shit about him, because he obviously doesn't give a shit about us.

They are uncool now too, so eithe rhop on the train or get the fuck off.

When the stars are aligned and Axl finally releases the album and its a MASTERPIECE. Just for arguments sake an absolute masterpiece. Instantley well recieved nby fans and media. Then what. Will you still be saying Axl hates his fans etc? Would that be good enough payback?

Or will you be saying yea its good only becuase of the time and money?

If GNR deliver a musical msterpiece thats all as us fans can have. The music. You will have that album and the music for your life. If its great all the frustrations and amount of waiting will be wiped from your mind from the opening chords and screams to the last note.

When its all said and done it will be about the music GNR release. We all are caught up in something we dont have control over. But its all in it for the ending which is the release of the album. When Axl deems it sthe right time to release it you will have the album. Admidst all the "delays", frustrations, etc,etc there will be music that will surface from all that. And thats what we will have in the end.

If you have waited the whole time and followed this soap opera the reward might be that much sweeter because you went through all the twists and turns, all the arguments, etc.
If you cant handle that get out of the kitchen mama. Come back when the flowers are in full bloom. Pick up the album and there it is. Its your choice to hang around and wait. Or to get fed up and leave. No1 is holding a gun to your head.
Some will always have their arms crossed with a smirk on their face waiting for the album to bomb while others are ready to embrace Axl and the band and the music. No1 is forcing you to do either of those. Point is when its all over we will have music in our hands. And if its a masterpiece ...welll....must be the money ;)

mikegiuliana and everyone, listen carefully to what he's saying in the new songs esp in Chinese Democracy.
No, wait, have you really digested the Illuson twins yet?

Objection! While I very much agree with you that ROCK AND ROLL IS NOT PERFECT!!,
I never think Just because you take a decade and spent millions of dollars on something, it's going to be bad or less emotional.

Younggunner..I've been on the train since 1987!!! Thats part of the problem!! It's so frustrating!! The people here who have only been fans a couple of years are lucky!! They don't know the meaning of the word 'wait'. And to the people here wondering why the media isn't doing more articles like the one just coming out, i'll tell you: The media isn't falling for Axl's cosmic joke like we are!! And the only way it will cease to be a joke is when he releases CD. The media doesn't hate Axl. It's the other way around. If Axl had done something productive over the past few years they would have treated him with respect. They obviously respect him somewhat or there would be Axl jokes ALL over the place!!

As the redhead so tersely said awhile back, live your life. I don't see why anyone is angry about the wait. i would be angry if the album drops and is a huge disappointment but if he wants to take the time to work this out in a cohesive, unified thematic manner, then I fully support that.

Axl is playing with his own money now; the clock is definately ticking. When news of the sale of Axl's back catalog went public, I immediately thought he was trying to gather liquidity for something,  lawsuits with CC or $lash and Duff possibily. But now things are more clear.

btw, I don't buy the explanation of the Philly incident. just because a newslet was released in the post concerning Axl trying to enter Spa doesn't mean it is necessarily connected to the Philadelphia Massacre.

are you going to say anthony that that article didn't seem like axl was going on a little much with getting computers? Maybe it ws for pittman's noises I don't know.. I just thinkmrecording studio and guys jamming. You know nothing about me, only how I have felt over the past year or so.. I was the biggest gnfnr fan in the day.. I am not allowed to form opinions, an I not allowed to want something better then the boots.. I said I loved msg, I was really aticipating the album.. The tour was called cd world tour 2002, sorry i hoped for that to follow.. yes I knw your beliefs getting the guys out of the studio stretch their legs, little fun, etc.. I believe it's more and it hurts and sucks how it went down and over two years later still nothing.. I'm sorry I'm not optomisitic like you, but I once was just like everyone else here.. Reality tends to set in, but because I have love for axl's work in the past I give him teh benfeit that one day soemthing will happen.. To much money is invested for it to not.. Wether it be by force from geffen, or anothr mate leaves or he finally collect himself and does it himself..

I"m sorry I don't just feel as confident or relaxed as others on here..
ANyways you quote to much fucking shit..

Are you going to see vr on long island jones beach.? If so let me know in a pm or something because I'm meeting up with a few people.. : ok:

just a question:
What's the difference between "the most expensive record never made" and "the most expensive record ever made"?
is the word "never" negative in that context in the english language?

"The most expensive record ever made" means just that, a record that costed more to make than any other. "Never made" is really a counterpart for that. It's the same thing as when they published "The Greatest Scifi/Comedy/Horror/etc. Films Ever Made" books and followed with "--- Films Never Made", which were about promising productions that never happened.

So it has a joke in it. Most money spent on music you'll never get to hear.

Strange, eh?

Noizzy...I agree with you 100 percent. This article does not inspire any confidence about CD coming out anytime soon. In fact, it may cost us another year of waiting. It was an interesting read, but I wish it had never been written. I wish Axl would at least put a song or two on a soundtrack so the wait for CD won't be so horrible. As i've posted here before, I really think Axl should put out an EP of the new stuff we have already heard and that could easily buy him another year or two. His fans would be partially satisfied and it would clear some more space for CD.

But you are not understanding that Axl is bringing the whole ball of wax to the game. Every stone will be left unturned in regards to technology and instruments.
Jamming and recording is fine but this is not what Axl has in mind. Thats where we differ on this. And its not a thoery its a fact. Axl doesnt want to just jam. His goal is to make a complex record not a AFD or CB type record.

Its not a belief...its part of the plan. Thats my whole point and what i have been saying for years now. And this article backs me up even more. ?Axl has a plan and he was goin to do this in stages not all at once. I cant believe many of you arent seeing this. Go back and listen to what he says right after the Vmas. His plan is to take things a little step at a time...test the waters so to speak...the next move is the move weve all been waiting for.

Your last few sentences basically sums up what Im saying. I think many people thought that once GNr reappeared at Rio, Vmas and tour that the comeback was on. When in reality it was just a small step of the process. Sure it didnt help that the 2002 tour failed but in the grand scheme of things it didnt mean much in terms of the content on CD.

Sure we have had apparent release dates but as the article says it all basically came from pressure from the label and even the band members. For Axl to release it. But he is stubborn and will not release it until hes ready.

Many debates with Booker gets you in this habit sorry.

Na Im not. It would be cool to chill at a concert with you and talk gnr. Maybe I would be able to drive home the situation a little better for you. If I do go to a vr concert it will be at the Arts Center here in NJ. its like 15 min from my house.


Theres a big difference.
Never would mean that the album would NEVER come out. Meaning the album didnt see the light of day whereas..
Ever means...it will be coming out whenever. An when it does it will be one of the most expensive album that does exist.

Isnt this basically the same attitude Axl has right now? towards the music industry and his company?

How is it sad? Hes fortunate enough to be able to take his sweet ass time and has put himself in a position with his old band that can afford him to do whatver the hell he wnats to do creativley with his music.
Back then Axl couldnt do what hes doing now. Hes taking fulladvantage of his past success in order to make the album he wants.


But a solid disc of music wont cut it. Its gnr, it has to be bigger than life.
I never said those A list songs will be accepted. They could be a hunk of junk. All Im saying is the possibility exists that there are gems in that vault. And with Axls resume Im willing to wager there are quite a few.
If I was Axls publicist you would all be very happy and understanding of the GNR situation...

Sign me up Beta...

If it bombs Axl makes a fool of himself. From a musical standpoint. Where in that article did it say it was overproduced? Also..for the 10th time that article has to do with 94-2000 where in fact it was chaos!

ok thanks.

it's must be cool 4 musicians 2 have the opportunity 2 do this ?:)

They like music right? ?::) Ever done a task you just loved doin, but had a time pressure 4 delivery?
These guys can experiment, and really get a feel it seems.
And the members had said makin cd is one of the best experience they ever had ?:beer:

The most disconcerting aspect of that article is the fact that the label has cut him off financially. Geffen/Universal were always the wild cards in this process, having sunk millions into a project without a payoff. We could sense the uneasiness in the relationship when axl sued along with his former colleagues to stop the GH package, but we never heard a peep about the label's growing discontent over the returnless investment. Litigation is still possible, but I now have a fear that Universal could conceivably move to drop Axl and sue him for breach of contract. That action would set back CD for years.

I agree Vector. This article definitely shouldn't have came out. It may be the final nail in the coffin of our dreams to finally get to hear CD.

why would it be the final nail in the coffin? There are reasons to be concerned but the article doesn't explain why tommy and diz heard near final mixes of the album. it doesn't include merck's glowing comments about the album either. There is some hope here, but we at least are beginning to see where the relationship between axl and his label has fallen.

ok understand.. Maybe a day in brooklyn or manhatan.. Take you to a bar with lots of gnr in the jukebox.. Save on quotes adn typing as well.. Tickets ent on sale today for the jersey show just to let you know..  :yes: ;D :beer:

seriously, i can't believe people think a little fucking article is the final nail in the coffin

you're all gonna be the first fucking people on the bandwagon when it comes out, and say "i always believed in you axl"

I don't know about you Vector, but I don't believe anything that Tommy or Dizzy says anymore. Their credibility went out the window about 3 years ago. They always say the album's done. But I guess I shouldn't be too hard on them. They're probably just trying to give us fans some hope. But this article does not paint a pretty picture. To be honest, before this article came out I thought there was a chance for CD to come out this year. Now the chance is probably zero.

to be honest, before this article, i thought you were hoping to put down any chances of CD coming out. Now I know for sure.

Actually there were numerous signs of that.

  ??? do you negative ppl know what you really want from GN'R? One minute You say "we don't give a fuck what you think, deal with it or fuck off "attitude built the huge following and had millions loving axl and GNR. the next minute you complain how he doesn't give a fuck about his fans?
I think both are far from the truth tho.

Reynic..its not just a little article. Its the first big media piece on Axl in 3 years and it sounds like a band in total disarray!! We all thought CD was on its way but its starting to sound like the LONG wait has just begun!!

what exactly is the proof that the album is a long time away? Can you enlighten everyone?

Where the hell have you been, man? ?Guns N' Roses are way cool right now. ?Everybody I know at my university seems to have at least a couple Guns N' Roses MP3s. ?I see young people wearing GN'R t-shirts all the time. ?Here's what it is: while GN'R's original type of music itself is not that popular these days, the band itself has now joined the ranks of the classic rock icons and that kind of stuff is in nostalgiac vogue now.

My only question about the article is...

How the hell could Axl Rose and Buckethead go to Disneyland together without it being a widely reported fact? ????

A big mistake is that decicions are made for you, in which you have no input at all.
Ever been stuck in a norm you felt inconfident in?

Like some girls needed 2 start wearin trousers and short hair, regardles of what they were suppose 2 do ?:P
I think the band give a fuck about the "rules", their musicians. ?:)

and when they feel, satisfied, confident and done with whatever it is that they're doin-
- it's them who feels it ?:) like you can't feel finsihed just because time or money has been used (like buisness men)
or let anyone controll you. ?;)

And i think the band has an agenda for what they wanna acheive in the material as musicians-
-and this article seems like it the band runnin the show (thank god for that ?::) ) and are dead set to do so!!!
So is kinda cool, not let anything stop you : ok: yes is very long time :sleeping:

I think the lack of confidence by all parties involved is the first clue that all isn't well in the GNR world.

I didn't realize Interscope had cut Axl off the funds for Chinese Democracy.  Interesting that this news coincides with the new $20,000,000 publishing deal.  Seems that Axl wanted some extra money to fund the album with.  I really want to know what's going on with this album because according to Tommy and Dizzy, the music's been finished for a while and they haven't been in the studio recording new material in the last year or so.

i like when people post "i really want to know what's going on with the album"

REALLY?

who does he site as his source for the letter dated feb 2nd 2004?

the one that says he doesn't record at village studios anymore and they "packed the gear away"

The article actually portrays Axl as being lazy throughout the process with all of the talk of him just disappearing for weeks at a time, and renting all of that god-awful expensive equipment he only used a handful of times. It sounds like the rest of the guys were always working hard to make music, but Axl's involvement was portrayed as being non-existent for long stretches of time. I always thought he was working hand over foot to make everything perfect and that's why it was taking so long. Sound like it is taking forever because it is only being worked on in small stretches with real long breaks in between......at least on the Red-heads part. I can see now why the old band broke up as there was no way I could see Slash/Duff or any of them for that matter dealing with that type of recording situation/Inactivity. They obviously just have completely incompatible styles.

Really?  You do?  Fucking sweet! 

the infected people hear and see things....that's the virus called the negativity addicts :hihi:

yeah, cuz before this, i figured that you didn't care at all what was going on, and didn't want to know!

who in particular and what did they say? how does this translate into the album not being released anytime soon? You have to be specific if you are going to make statements like that.

Without reading through 8 pagers and seeing a brief overview of what people are saying here. I find it rather anazing that everyone has takein this artilcal to such a negative point .

Personally myself I think that the article in itself was not put out by acident, nor just outta  the blue, knowing all to well the close lid on goin ons all these yrs. In fact I would not be a damn bit surpirsed if Merck actually sanctioned this , cause remebver it as not to long ago that we found out that GNR is now part of sancuary, and if you folks missed , he talks up GNR at almost any turn.
So for me I took this as a great insight to the fact that alot of people who where trying to work with axl werent living up to his vision, as for the band , well I know that are intact and ready to rolll.

What I thihnk alot of people are failing to missing is that article is indeed  a glimps of the great hype and anticipation that we all have known for these yrs, but what it does in effect is put it out there for the masses, the general masses, and its intriguing , cause now those who werent following every step and were casual listeners , will be like , damn "the most expensive album never made".... but you all read that with Sancuary, MErck and company, are thrilled and very aware of the fact that this is gettin close , (in relative terms) as in this yer I have no doubts. So what better way to bring the name GNR back than with alil story of all the yers of contriversy that the public at large didnt know.

Some of you really dont desrve to even be GNR fans, and should just stick with VR, youll be more at ease with mediocraty. And so mayny of you love to find and bring negatives, when I saw the article as amusing and in the end more positive than anythign ng else.

But say whay you will small minds , well they think like the hoard.  So choose what you will. I have and always will chose GNR and Axl, and like Mreck said, after CD is out, people wll see who really is the heart and driving force of GUNS N ROSES, and that is AXl ROSE.

Peace

If you don't understand where i'm coming from, go reread the article. Anyone who can find something positive in that is the most optimstic person on the planet!!!

I personally think the record company fuckin off will only allow CD to come out sooner

i dont think axl responds well to threats or pressure

i think the more the company pressured him, the less he did just to say "fuck you" to the suits and ties

now they have left him alone i think he will be more creative and more willing to work because it is now on his terms

i think the label wanted and were pressuring axl to write SCOM and WTTJ part 2 and Axl didnt wanna

then i think they wanted axl to create poppy chartbusting type trashy (current) style songs to fit in
and once again axl balked

so now he can do things his own way, i say CD will be released sooner than later.


most of the negative stuff was right after the band quit in my opinion and had no reflection on current axl

also if he were so lazy how do they have 60 songs finished including 20 A list songs?


do some of u not realize what 20 A list songs mean?

That's the problem. I have read the article and I don't see from where you are drawing this conclusion. You have not defended your contention very well.

That's just your opinion 100s of thousands of people are enjoying vr and their work..two number one rock singles, a grammy number one albu,, Be blind who cares.. They are getting 99 percent positive reviews from shows by fans.. I can say the same exact thing from the new gnr boots but at least I want the new gnr album to see what might be better, you just have this defeatis attitude that says fuck vr I need a fix of something that might be great or whatever.. You haven't heard a fucking lick, and if it was based on those boots then the album will suck.. That's my opinion..

Cd is the best album that never came out, it gets praised like it's the best album ever and it's never been heard.. Someone actually pumpin gup their album, tommy says good things,,.. Did you expect friends of axl to knock the work? I'm sure ashlee simpson thinks her album is awesome too..

Anyone can say  A list songs.. That doesn't mean they are great songs, have you heard them for this evaluation?.. It's just hyping the music.. He said he had two albums worth 4 years ago at least..

I don't belive shit till I listen to it, tommy, merck, dizzy or whoever else they just run at the mouth but they can't say when cd will be out.,. That's the only thing that matters..

im just saying based on everything gathered thus far

axl said Maddy,the blues,cd,rhiad etc etc etc werent the big guns, were actually maybe even bside type shit

people on here were talkin how those songs probably were the big guns


slash said they only had 3 or 4 songs finished

that article says 2 things

1. with 20 a list songs, maybe axl was telling the truth about the big guns

2. slash doesnt know shit about the new band and that was one instance where he was hatin a little bit.

To look at this in a different perspective, do you think this article was intentionally released as propaganda by the GNR camp to ruffle everybody's feathers and to bring even more attention to the band? If true, we should stop discussing the article immediately and stop playing into Axl's sick game.

I'm sick of hearing this 50-200 songs bullshit!! Where's the proof of this? How many songs have you heard?? If there were 50-200 songs don't you think he would have played more than 5 new songs during the tour?? And if you were going on tour for the first time in 9 years, would you play B-sides for your new material?? The facts don't add up with the rumours.

yet you completely embrace this article as fact even though no sources are cited. jeez, get a clue.

Na. not a game. I hope all the negative fans turn their attention to his works and gets properly what those are telling us. Everything from the members is a message as well. We'd better prepare ourselves for the new album.

Interesting is that some wiseacre here said something like whoever thought Axl would fund his own album were idiots because no artist did that!!!! :rofl:

I for one can't tell why anyone would be optimistic after reading this article.  The label pulled the plug on funding and according to Dizzy and Tommy the music's been finished for a long time.  They haven't been in the studio to record new tracks for probably over a year and given the fact that Tommy had the time to record, release and tour behind a new album last year supports this.  And yet still despite the lack of funding and the other band members doing their side project we still have no solid release date.  I think the album may be released this year but why is it taking so long when the music's done? 

thank u KILLING VECTOR

hit the nail on the head

if u are goin to believe the negative stuff in that article, u have to believe every bit of the article therefore u have to believe he has 60 songs finished.


he wouldnt play the top hits on tour because

HELLO

people would bootleg them and download them

so he played b-sides or non singles which were good songs to give people a taste without blowing the mystique and surprise of the long awaited album.

there where a lot of articles about overdoses, moodswings, trouble and stuff with the oldband 2 you know? ?;)
These are rockers true 2 their spirit ?:smoking:

I can never understand why people says axl threat them bad as fans, it's kinda like us he is fightin for fans too
as will get the material. If you feel this way, you think you're 2 close 2 him, and should stay on the dust. ?: ok:

And they care 4 they're fans as not willin 2 release a album only the record company is confident in.
Like you wan't this 2 be music from gunsnroses (the artists) right? ?::)

- instead of a company (american idol albums) album.
The positive thing is that it speaks of musicans not lettin anything makin decicions for them and focused on completin it.
and if these lawbreakers hurts your feelings, remember stay on the dust ?:beer:

D..your theory doesn't fly. Supposedly CD was gonna come out during the tour so why would he worry about a crappily recorded bootleg of some new songs?? Axl might have 200 song titles or ideas but there is no way there is 50-200 finished songs for CD.If there was, we wouldn't still be waiting.

Axl replied to your concern at London 2002, go read about it.

because dude first impressions are everything

u dont want complex layered songs to be first heard and judged in a live setting

look at the people who already shit on rhiad,Chinese democracy, the blues and maddy to some degree

its not fair because the boots are a close replica but not exactly how they should be heard.

Axl never promised the cd during the 2002 tour

he said they'd tour do more recording and see how it goes.

it didnt go well and he realized for the NEW gnr to get accepted and to be truly over, he had to come up with the most amazing album ever.

i ?found the most shocking statement to be was axl cancelling Philly cause he was pissed over not being admitted to a club due to his fur coat.

anyhow if u think that part of the article is bullshit, how do u know the entire article isnt bullshit?

how is it easy to believe the negative shit but u cant believe the positive parts of it?

I think this article is pretty good, best one since the rolling stone piece, and i defenetly can't see anything negative in it other than the fact that he still wears fur ?:hihi:

If this article is true or acurate it paints a picture of a genius imo. This article shows that Axl knows what he's doing, or atleast when he's doing something wrong. He wont get pushed over no matter how hard people try.

Think about it, how fuckn' irretating and frustrating and provocative and sad it would be when someone actually hire your "friends" to try to get you to release something imature. I can't believe this guy's luck, no matter what he does, he gets fucked over by some blood sucking asshole, it's like this guy is borned to be assfucked!!! I'd devote my life to hunt down and assrape any motherfucker who's name were on the list Axl gave me he he...

Buckethead can fuck off for not believing, although i hope he'll be back...

This thing(CD) has never been about the money, if it was it would have been out a long time ago and it would have cost a fraction of what the article implies.

Think about it, who can you trust? Everyone around you sees a financial benefit in you so they suck up and totaly looses theyr personal value and if that's not enough, everyone you do trust gets fired for not delivering something you're not done with yet... it's a rock hard whored out buiseness this music industry...

I'm really glad to know that atlest ONE is on top of it tho! And i know musicians and others in the future will appreciate it!

BTW, was the guy who wrote this article really thinking he was going to get a comment from Axl, it looks like he has done some serious research, but missed the fact that Axl isn't really into the press thing these days he he...

D...I get your point now. But during the illusions tour they played a wide variety of new songs before Illusions were released. So why play the same 5 songs every night on the last tour?? I never understood his reasoning behind doing that.

The Internet.




/jarmo

This article and thread shows how much peopel are out of the loop when understanding GNr and the process. I mean some of the shit I just read in the last 2 pgs is so comical.

Yeah, and if axl's sold his rights 4 the back-catalogue 4 money, why didn't he go with the highest bidder?? ::)

lol because he trusts merck more than any1 else.

you missed my point. Im not sayin gi know all the answers but some of the stuff this guy James is saying and others is crazy.

This isnt rocket science. Before you throw yourself into this soap opera you must realize that just because GNR went on tour in 2002 doesnt mean Cd was supposed to follow or the ocmeback. You must realize the 2 different periods of time post illusion era. If you fail to grasp this or choose to ignore it you will never allow yourself to see the answers to your questions. Its all right there. It truly is.

yeah james there were no music download sites back in the illusion days.

my idea was that the revealed songs was 2 give hints of musical direction, that 2 maybe? :)

norway you are one my fav poster on this board I just thought id let you know that.

why anyone shuld be pessimistic after reading this article. Actually the article doesn't change the nagatives or the positives much. The members interviews, the circumstances n everything have already suggested those things vaguely. Not that I believe every line of this article for a fact tho. Fur coat? hmmm :-\


has something to do with the industry? seeking the greatest ideas for videos or covers? Or how about this idea? ;D
Whatever, let's wait and see.Ditto and also I think those songs tell us a lot

It?s amazing that some people just take the negative thing out of the article states as truth and think that the positive is bull shit.

Hell is me or did the article not really tell any thing that we already haven?t figured out before?

Now as fare as how long it take for the album to come out , well it did take Brian Wilson some thirty years to finally put ?Smile? out.

Brian Wilson had family members in the band that were afraid to play Smile live because it was complicated, and they were afraid people wouldnt understand the lyrics. Smile musically finished and 100% written by Brian except lyrics, but Mike Love the singer and oldest member, kicked Brians ass when he didnt get his way, and hated the lyrics, decided not take part in vocal sessions. For some reason everyone was against Brian Wilson when writing Smile. His dad, and the record company hated it for being too risky, Mike Love also just cared about the money, and helped convince Brians brothers that he was crazy. Bands were not as rich in those days. It is just a different situation than Chinese Democracy. But the only thing holding back Axl is him, and possibly the music not being as good as people hoping it will be. The record company has already rejected CD once i think. Thats not too promising a sign. I personally believe Axl's having problems coming up with vocal melodies that go well with the music
already written.

Brian was 24 when he wrote smile. By the time he is Axl's age Brian was living with a team of doctors monitered 24 hours a day and occasionally forced to go on tour. Just saying that its tough to repeat the past and recapture successful and younger days after years of inactivity.

Thanks for posting Booker, great article.  I was hoping they'd provide a little more insight into why they 2002 tour was cancelled, but it was a great read nevertheless.

I'm not surprised, he had the same attitude duing the UYI recordings. Disappearing for months, then coming back with the updated version of NR, disappearing again with some instrumentals made by the band and he liked, never goes to rehearsals and later feeling that the record was 'incomplete'. That's happenin' all the time but now he has the power (and lack of interest from the company) to do this forever.

I don't believe he is having trouble with the vocal melodies. It is more likely he is working in spurts of meticulous absentia, namely focusing on the record when he wants to but often not working at all. when you work on something for so long, it becomes tedious, i.e. my doctoral thesis. You end up doing it over and over out of some misdirected demand for perfection of what you are able to put to paper. It's easier to emend than create.

Younggunner, i think you're taking too many fastballs to the cranium, please wear a helmet when batting. :hihi:

You're comments are your perceptions (you have no facts to back any of them up) about the so called soap opera. ?Quit telling us you have it all figured out when it's apparent that no one has it figured out.

"it's all right there, it truly is" ? Did i miss something ? ? Did you have a secret meeting with axl that you haven't shared ?

Guns are no longer being funded and the band is probably on shaky ground, so if there's one positive to this story, ?maybe axl is getting desperate to put the album out before he loses the rest of the band and has to start this whole vicious cycle over from the beginning.

I consider this article half and half as far as optimism and pessimism are concerned.

CD will come out but with what musicans? Currant ones like Tommy, Fortus, Robin and Brain or the right ones, Slash, Duff and Izzy?

AHHHH! Fucks sake man! How many of you mother fuckers are there out there? Get over it! It was a great time, but those guys left and in case you havent noticed two of them seem to be having great time in their new band! Chinese Democracy will come out with the band members who are there now and have poured their hearts and creativity into it!

I think Axl's record company needs to put a shitload of pressure on him, because clearly, with artistic freedom, unlimited amounts of cash and unlimited amounts of time has been screwing with his mind. He needs to be forced like he needed to be forced with the UYI's, he cant seem to be able to work on his own. He needs a brilliant producer that will make him work. We can't wait forever for this motherfucker to be released.

Don't worry about what a fool says, when in the end,  the fooled may be you. estranged33, I'm a very positive person, sometimes you gotta do whats appropriate to save your own ass. Watch what happens in the next 2 years. 

Merck :peace:

Thank the heavens for Merck.

This article not only is in the most prominent newspaper in the world, it is also int he most copyrighted and re-published newspaper in the world.  It looks like every major wire service has picked it up to run in either today's Sunday paper or in the near future in an condensed version.  This is a publicity boon.  It was Oscar Wilde who coined the phrase stating that all publicity is good, it's no publicity which is bad.

No doubt though, if Merck's response ran in today's NY Times, I would imagine that this will take the debate to the streets and rekindle interest in the project.  With or without the response, it is rekindling interest. If Axl can deliver the good's by the summer, he would almost hit platinum alone in the States based off the interest generated by this article.

Did Merck's response run in today's NY Times?  If not, is it going to run in the newspaper at all?

sure. this article is a buzz for this album.

There's already a thread about the article. Topics merged.

The article actually ran in today's edition of the NYT and I don't think they had time to include Merck's response in the paper. It may be published tomorrow. New yorkers could help us out here.

yes! And i hope they use it well this time! Free Promotion!

This is my first post here... but I've been around on 2tI for years, and GnR Online before that as Johnnybebad.
Any way... I can't believe the way some people here act. Everyone seems to know SO much about Axl. What he thinks, how he feels, what he's going to do next. Face it people, you don't know anything. Unless everyone has personal connections with Axl, I don't think it's fair to act as fortune tellers.

As for this article... I don't see it as having much new or useful information. Everyone knows we've heard nothign but bad news over the past 10 years. This article just condenses it down into one big lump.

Has Geffen cut funding? Probably. It's hardly even a company anymore. It's just a logo that Interscope uses on the back of CDs. Interscope is responsable for most of the crap you hear on teh radio these days, and I'd be willing to bet they've been responsable for most of the one hit wonder rap artists careers.

If anything, this article only proves why the album has taken so long. The new Guns N' Roses didn't really turn into a band until after 2000... The article said itself that Axl spent most of his time of the 90s dealing with lawsuits and what not.

As for Tommy and Dizzy constantly saying "The album is almost done," they probably had every reason in the world to believe that and say so. The article said the CD has been recorded 5 times. So maybe they think its done, then Axl decides its time to do it all over again.

The computer argument is pretty irrelevent too. Axl made it clear that he wanted an industrial type sound when news of the CD first came around. Have you ever seen Trent Reznor's studio? It is lined with walls and walls of computers. But its obvious to everyone that industrial doesn't seem to be Axl's taste anymore. I'm fairly sure there have been claims by people in the band that the CD is going to be more guitar oriented. So the computer crap was most likely reports from '98-2000.

I myself have long stopped waiting for the CD. It will come out when it does... thats all. There's no need of sitting around analyzing everything.

This article could've just have easily run in the obituary column. The gig's up Axl. Geffen won't fund your illusions any longer and Clear Channel isn't going to give you a second chance. It's over you big baby.

And, on que, Merck writes an angry letter in response. What's with GNR and angry responses to the press like we saw with Buckethead . . . ?

Merck just as easily could've responded with "Chinese Democracy will be worth the wait!" Fini. The problem is he would be talking out his ass!

Axl is one of the greatest singers/performers/musicians/lyricists of our time. Unfortunately, he is lazy and crazy. Axl you've wasted the second half or your life and the prime of  Tommy's, Robins, and Dizzy's lives. You could've been bigger than Zepplin . . .

Unfortunately they seem to have personal connections with Axl.
They don't try to distinguish fact from fiction, says from hearsays, hatred from love, themselves from their "idol". They are busy focusing on the images n gossips led on by the press, instead of searching the music given for the answer. The messages never reach them.
It's like casting pearls before swine. Tough luck for an artist.
I suspect that could be one of the reasons it hasn't come out yet.

Sorry I can't help analyzing things.
Welcome to the board! :peace:

Axl you just can't hide behind the "Artist" label anymore. You're an entertainer - not Renoir! Get in the Ring - Axl! 'Cuz everyone is kicking your ass!

Axl is not hiding behind anything, he's doing with his life what he feels is right. That's more than most people in the world can say, I don't think anyone has the right to bitch about it.

Well, according to the NY Times article, Geffen quit funding Axl's project & told him he was responsible for funding & finishing it himself. If that's true(and I don't have any reason to believe the NY Times would make it up, no matter what Merck, Mysteron, Dave, etc... would want you to believe), here's how I see the scenario unfolding.

Geffen orders Axl to deliver CD by xx:xx:xxxx(fill in the date - October? November?). Axl, as always, fails to deliver. Geffen then sues Axl for the 13mil they laid out, & Axl is stuck in litigation hell forever. No CD, no band, no nothing.

Guns & Roses is dying the slowest, most painful.excruciating, humiliating death ever. Anyone who still believes that Axl has some sort of plan is as far gone as Axl seems to be.

yeah, another one of these posts.

only a kick ass record with multi-platinium sales could save that situation. It really must be huge to shut everyone's up (some journalists). IF CD sells 15/20 million copies worldwide (within 2 years), nobody will be able to contest anything.
Usher sold over 14 million copies of his last album last year (2004). I'm sure GN'R can do as good and even better.

au contrere'? mon frere'? :)
http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/board/index.php?topic=18912.0

:wave: remember dust fans, we're not outdated and neither is our music. :friendly:
and who says guns is dead? no one in this morgue thats 4 sure  :peace:

So this is the infamous NY Times article huh?

Thanks to those who posted the info.  : ok:

This guys a dick...First of all its made jsut not released...And Axl does what he wants when he wants, there no rulebook that says you have to release an album every so many years

The one thing I would like to hear, is what Axl said after he found out the label wasn?t going to give anymore money for the album .I but that was one hell of a rant ,if it was true that is.

And according to merk the times article has its facts mixed up.  And if you think gnr are dying, why are you even here? If  you think we are as far gone as Axl because we think he has a plan, then just leave and you wont have to deal with us.

It is easy to be negative in situations like this. I dont think this is necessarily a great situation..but it isnt terrible.

We have another person saying 2005 is the year, we have another man who believes in Axl and we have people discussing GNR again..and that aint bad : ok:

fuck defending or explaining for this band. When the time comes the music will do all the talking.....man o man I hope gnr are sitting on a gem

so can we put calling 'the three album rumour' a rumour behind us now

Axl spoke about 3 albums...

now this here unnamed source has confirmed it!
is that good enough for you all?!!
 ;D

1- ?I could be wrong but to me the article says Axl doesn't bend over for any record company or media outlet or corporate conglomerate and that makes him "difficult" and frustrates the pencil pushers who could make a few bucks off GNR if only Axl would do things their way. ?

2- ?I could be wrong but to me the article says a lot of people have been brought into the project but because of their own inabilities (and possible incompetence) have not been able to finish what they set out to do so hey, lets pin it all on Axl. ?Tom Zutuat used to be the hottest A&R man in the business and now he's unemployed and doing the talk show circuit for every lame Behind The Music episode that calls. ?A 30% bonus on top of whatever sum they agreed to if he could get the job done has to be seriously chaffing his sense of self importance.

3- ?I could be wrong but to me the article says that a lot of money has been spent on this record and the only way to recoup that debt is by releasing Chinese Democracy so when Axl feels that it is good and ready, then and only then will we be able to hear it. ?All the bitching & moaning and monetary incentives and negative pressures ain't gonna speed the process up one minute. ?

4- ?I could be wrong but I seriously doubt it when I say the NY Times article was a hatchet job written with only negative intentions towards Axl Rose and the completion of Chinese Democracy. ?Really now, what was the purpose of writing it? ?

There are no shortage of people willing to step up and take a pot shot at Axl. As Saul said, there are elements in the media that do not like the man despite what talents he may demonstrate. I believe that Leeds found a story amongst these naysayers and discharged producers/engineers. His behavior at the deadline is the most questionable aspect of the whole event.

the article is already roling here in Brazil

here?s the link to one of the sites more visited on the internet:

http://noticias.uol.com.br/midiaglobal/nytimes/2005/03/07/ult574u5168.jhtm

from: www.uol.com.br

to me the article seems so badly researched that it throws into question how much of it is actually true and how much of it is journalistic speculation. you'd think if they'd known anything about the history of GNR they would have mentioned the release of 'Oh My God', and the fact that Buckethead is no longer in the band?!!!

Both topics were included in the article.? :confused:

no they weren't

How many times do you think Axl has read this article, parsing out details he thinks are unfair and completely ignoring the big picture, which is the fact that there's no album and a long, long trail of people who question his work discipline? One thing that's stayed absolutely constant in these accounts over the past 5 years is that Axl is an extremely sporadic participant in the recording of, ummm, his album. Listening to 1000s of session tapes in your basement doesn't fucking count.

I don't think anyone can know if the reporter is wrong or not. That is a problem. But the lack of input from someone in the know, namely some of the names mentioned connected with the album, Roy Thomas Baker, Sean Beaven, Josh Freeze, hell...Buckethead. Get us some information from these guys and i'll be more convinced.

Merck has deflected the article's pointed criticims for now. But ultilmately the effectiveness of his response is tied to a 2005 release of this album that ws never made.

 
Considering that everyone who works with Axl most likely signs a confidentiality agreement, and everyone who spoke to the reporter did so anonymously, anyone of the above mentioned could have provided information for the article.  They just don't want Axl to know for obvious legal reasons. 

Maybe Merck was one of the guys anonymous sources!  ???

Having employees sign a confidentiality agreement as part of their employment contract...
IT IS A STANDARD BUSINESS PRACTICE.
Are there those of you who would hold this against Axl and/or the GN'R camp or anyone they do business with?

The eimployees of the studios where music is recorded are bound by these.
This is A MORE THAN REASONABLE requirement.
GOOD MONEY is paid to these places for their services and part of what is paid for IS THAT CONFIDENTIALITY.

Would YOU run a studio without this?
Would YOU hire anyone to work with /around you who you feel would violate this - their employment agreement.
Just because these people are no longer employed by Axl/GN'R/Geffen etc. does not free then to talk either.

The fact that sensitive confidential financial data (particularly salaries) is disclosed might sound like good fun to some of you -
but don't kid yourself - if it was YOUR business that was being aired out like dirty laundry you would not like it...
and you would want to know who is blabbing and yes, indeed SUE thier ass til it cries.

As for the NYTimes 'protecting' their sources being so noble = ?it's not like they're protecting an informant in a case of national security. ?We're talking about (for one) the parking lot attendant who gave them the little tidbit about Axl being 'seen' at the recording company parking lot in his silver ferrari - who knows how many of his thirty some odd sources were parking lot attendants or the janitors who sweep up the studio? ? :hihi:

oh well... my point is that no one should frown on these confidentiality agreements.... ?everyone should be able to understand why, especially in this type of business, they are required. ?:peace:

Quite a few celebrities use confidential agreements yes, but Axl takes it to the extreme, when he tries to control the media.  The famous media contracts that he had drawn up in the early nineties, demanding a reporter's sources and such, requesting final approval over what is written about him, using his personal friends to write GnR articles, etc.  It's ludicrous to try and control every word that is written about you.  If that is not a deep reflection of insecurity I don't know what is.

Axl does have business interests to protect, sure, but it is just a band right?  It's just music?  Hopefully it's great music, but nothing about his behaviour is reasonable, Axl's control issues are pathological at minimum and completely looney at worst. 

What a great article. It was as balanced as it gets. It was more balanced than that RS article from 2001 which painted a more distorted picture of the situation. Here at least it is based on testimonies - not speculations about where Axl's head was at. It doesn't really take any cheap shot at Axl, but claims that simply nobody has patience for the guy anymore and that is TOTALLY understandable the way he has carried out his "project" since 1998. Anybody here who gives this guy a break - "yes men" - are the reason, as Duff says that Axl thinks he can carry on and just not give a fuck about working with people - his fans, his bandmates, producers, studios and his record company.

Regardless of whether the nu GNR album ever comes out or not, there's no denying that Axl really messed up his career. He could have diversified and done so much - what a talent - some of you people don;t even realize that. He got too distracted with his bullshit and we fans are the ones who have to pay.  :-[
I still love that quote about Axl running over the CDs with his car!!!? :rofl: :rofl:

I just wish Axl could meet me and others like me and see what his music and persona has done for all of us. I think that alone would get him motivated to put out the record, or at least reunite with the old lineup. 

How sweet would it have been if after the UYI tour, Axl could have ridden off in the sunset with Stephanie Seymour or some other hot model and lived happily ever after in such comfort. Unfortunately, it seems that I have underestimated the guy. He could have gone on record and made his claims in the article, but like time and time again, he hides. He didn't need to say anything other than there is a record and what it means to him to make it. He had an audience with the NY TIMES article and yet like he has in the past, he didn't show up.


What a pity, but I guess until then we're all just Knockin' On Heavens' Door/Dust and Bones
 :peace:

MNR

I've translated the full article and posted since saturday. And this UOL translation is poor and have only the first half. Here's the link to the brazilian forum with the full article on portuguese:

http://www.gnrforum.brlogic.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1176&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0  ;)

obviously Axl (nor any other celebrity) can control the media and as there is no way to do so... none attempt to control what is printed about them.  What we are talking about here is control over an INTERVIEW.  If YOU were in his position and granted an interview YOU would want to make sure YOU weren't gonna get FUCKED IN THE ASS as soon as the reporter turned off his tape recorder.

anyone can write anything they want about anyone.  first amendment etc.  (short of libel of course).  BUT who in their right mind is GOING TO PARTICIPATE IN and FACILITATE their own skewering/cruxifiction?  NO ONE!  Not KNOWINGLY!  Which is what those interview agreements arrangements are about.  Its like this.  Take your pick.  You get the interview OR you write your own shit - but, I'll have nothing to do with it.   ANY WRITER who had nothing to hide... no ulterior agenda... no nails hidden in their pocket w/ cross at the ready behind them would object.  They would take the interview under these terms.  If not they are free as always to write their little hearts out as they please BUT NOT WITH the benefit of the 'victim's assistance. 

The press is free... the press is free... blah blah blah.   Fine.  Okay.  So is Axl and any other artist / celebrity to pick and choose their terms for granting an interview.   Who ever doesn't like it could STICK IT  : ok:

How has he messed up his career? It definately sounds like hes not losing sleep at night with all the "abuse", etc he has taken over the last decade.

The one thing that ultimately will effect his career is one thing. An album called Chinese Democracy. And guess what Axls main focus has been while not being in the spotlight...you guessed it...CD. So in the short term everyone can say and think what they want about him but the ultimate judgement will be from the album.


How do you know hes not diversifieing and doing so much? Or using his talents. Just because someone decides to stay out of the public eye doesnt mean they have stop working.
As many have said, Axl doesnt care about the spotlight. Hes more concerned in making the music he wants to make. And he put himself in a position where he can do what he wants without being followed, or whatever else comes with being a celebrity and is able to keep people intereste din what hes doing. Hes kinda got the best of both worlds for the situiation that he wants to be in.
 He has obivioulsy taken a beating PR wise over the past 10 yrs but again, he doesnt seem to care that much. Of course its ashame to see Axl waste his prime years out of the spotlight. But thats part of Axl we all overlook. After the Illusions he found more important things to do...especially personally. Plus hes able to have such a mythical type persona while not even doing naything. How can you beat that? So he just takes the abuse and hopefully, ultimately, as Merck said...he will have the last laugh...when it REALLY counts...

 ??? ::)

Youve got a pretty warped perception of "crucifixion" if thats how you describe this particular article.

I wasn't describing this article.? If you note I was speaking in general terms regarding Axl not wanting to participate in a feature or grant an interview if he felt that would be the result.  NO ONE would knowingly do so.

nobody can possibly believe the figures mentioned in this article.  nobody would continue the rediculous tab ran up starting back as far as 97-05 and counting 13 million plus on a album that has not even shot a video which costs usually exceed the recording of music. absolute bullshit but very interesting and well written bullshit.  axl is a crazy mother fucker but i dont think he has a masterplan of wasting the time of countless musicians producers etc, just to hopefully die as a misunderstood mastermind talent with brilliant material never released to the public.  nobody can actually spend as much time and energy as he suposedly done and never reap or see the benefits or appreciate the praise.  if he does have this plan it would make an awsome movie and also prove that this fucking guy is leggitimitly a lunatic.

Cool, the article is on the cover of one of the biggest papers here in Brasil, "O Globo".
I wrote to tell them about Merck's letter but I doubt they would care about it. So, the dissing is spreading like a virus - at least here in my country.  :rant:

All this makes me sad. The fact that ChiDem isn't out yet, and that because of this, there are god-knows-how-many forum topics on this subject, and everyone keeps trying to analyze Axl. Thing is though... you have to because you have nothing else to analyze except guesses about what he's really like.
If I met him, I'd just be nice. I wouldn't talk about the album, I'd just be like "Hey, how you doing?" and then I'd give him a hug because I think he needs one. I'd probably also just start crying as well because I feel so bad for him. Everyone just hounds him so much, and there's so much pressure on just his shoulders to get ChiDem out. And now VR's come along and to him (this is just a rough guess) that probably feels like when your partner leaves you and then flounces his/her new lover in your face, and that just makes you not want to be with anyone else because it won't feel right. Sure, its been a while, but so what. Time does NOT heal all wounds. I think Axl misses the old guys and would dearly love to have them back, but at the same time doesn't, because he thinks that it'll be all weird. Familiar, but weird. Its like...*thinks*... I would like to see my old friends from primary school, but I can't even remember some of their names now! If there was a "Class of 1990 reunion" I wouldn't know ANYONE! I used to know them, but not anymore. I think that its like that with Axl... only of course he remembers Slash n' co because he wasn't 4 years old when he formed Gn'R, but I think he prefers to not think about them... and oh god I've gone off into analyzing him again. I do that all the time.
I have to go because I'm tired and I have to go to college tomorrow... I might not go in, I feel like shit. I think it was that half cooked pizza I ate... half cooked on account of the AGA was broken, and wouldn't work properly. I shoulda put it in the microwave.
Right, I'm babbling, a sure sign I'm tired.
I'm going now!

nevermind if the article bash Axl. It contributes to the buzz around this album. And if you want my opinion it's like FREE PROMOTION.

That's what I said before, dude:



 ::)

Don't let this article get you down. 
Axl has not and will not give up.
And don't feel sad for him.
The fact that Axl has not given up all these years...  he is pleased with his life and what he is doing.
He loves creating.  And he does not keep around him people or things that would bring him down.
Yeah, I can believe his being aware of the pressure there is surrounding this album's release...
but as you can tell - his is not letting the pressure get to him.  So don't worry.
he knows what he's doing...
and if he wasn't happy doing it - he would have given up
he's fine hon.  don't worry.

Like Merck said he's going to have the last laugh.

shit... could be laughing right now ;)

:headscratch:

Why do people think they know how Axl feels when no one really knows anything?

I don't think any of us 'think we know how Axl feels'...

It is sometimes something some of us consider...
and some of us have thoughts and beliefs about it.
I shared my thoughts and offered explanation as to why I believe what I do...
and I did so in an effort to help lift the spirits of a fellow gunner who said she was 'sad' ;)



See the havoc this grim tale is wreaking!? :rant:

Jeff Leeds, the journalist who wrote the recent New York Times article on Guns n'roses and their forthcoming album, Chinese Democracy, has spoken to Splat about his article.
He tells us, "I am a dedicated fan of Guns N? Roses and have been pretty much from the start. I own every album, including the Lies EP and the Live Era double CD"

Asked about whether he thought his article was balanced and fair, he said, "I think the piece is absolutely a fair and balanced look at the process of making Chinese Democracy so far. It?s clearly not written to stand as some kind of final verdict; as the article makes clear, the story of making Chinese Democracy is continuing."

When asked about Merck Mercuriadis' reply he admitted that he had read it, and on the subject of Jayson Blair, who was mentioned in the reply, he said, "Jayson Blair was a reporter who was forced to resign from the New York Times after fabricating articles and defrauding the paper and its readers."

Heres the interview:
1) Are you a fan of Guns n'roses?
JL) I am a dedicated fan of Guns N? Roses and have been pretty much from the start. I own every album (including the Lies EP and the Live Era double CD), except ?The Spaghetti Incident?? If I had to wind up stranded on a desert island with only 3 CDs, ?Appetite for Destruction? would be one.

2) How long did your article on Guns n'roses take to compile?

JL) No Comment

3) Do you think your article is a balanced and fair reflection on the story of Chinese Democracy?

JL) I think the piece is absolutely a fair and balanced look at the process of making Chinese Democracy so far. It?s clearly not written to stand as some kind of final verdict; as the article makes clear, the story of making Chinese Democracy is continuing.

4) GN'R's manager wrote a letter of response on your article to the NY times. It mentions a Jayson Blair, who is he?

JL) Jayson Blair was a reporter who was forced to resign from the New York Times after fabricating articles and defrauding the paper and its readers. These days, anyone who wants to criticize the paper invokes his name -- maybe they think it has shock value? Mr. Mercuriadis hasn?t accused me of fabricating anything, so his mention of the Blair episode strikes me as a cheap shot.

5) Do you think you gave the Guns n'roses camp sufficient time to offer information towards the article?

JL) Yes, I think I gave the GNR camp sufficient time to think about the fact that there would be a forthcoming article in the Times, and to offer a response. I very much hoped that Axl might participate in the story. But as a reporter for a daily news organization, I'm not bound by his priorities or those of his management.

6) Had you been given the opportunity to listen to the new Guns n'roses album, and interview Axl Rose in two months time, would you have waited before publishing the article?

JL) No comment

7) Did you find out any song titles from your news sources?

JL) No Comment

8) What studio are Guns n'roses currently recording in?

JL) No Comment

9) What are your three favourite bands?

JL) I'm a fan of all sorts of music and it would take too long for me to try narrowing down a list of my three favorites. I can say I'm looking forward to hearing a new record from Black Rebel Motorcycle Club.

10) What message do you have for the Guns n'roses fans that read your article?

JL) Thanks for reading the piece.

I figured he was a GNR fan, who else would invest the time to write an article like this? 

I must say I enjoyed reading his article, and it's nice to see a GNR fan who's willing to take an unbiased look at the actual situation, and try to get some interviews with people who worked with the project. I also appreciate the fact that he's willing to question some inconsistencies, and not assume Axl rose is the Lord incarnate, with a master plan that is currently in action and has been for the last decade.

no comment

As a fan he should have never written a piece such as this without talking to someone who actually nows what going on!!!
It is nice to know he is a fan, figured he was, but he took the wrong route in writing that piece.

It's hard to talk to someone who won't talk to you ...  :-\

Exatcly...he tried to but Merck wanted him to "wait" until he could listen to the album.  As we know, Axl told us to live our lives and not wait.  Plus, it was an article about an album that hasn't been made...it wasn't supposed to be a review of the album

What makes him a 'dedicated fan'?? Oooo? he owns every album... all of them...? okay - I'm impressed? ::)
Chosing AFD as one of his 3 stranded on an island CDs doesn't make him a fan of GN'R's? or Axl Rose's continued efforts.



Look he couldn't even bring himself to say he's looking forward to Chinese Democracy!? ::)

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He says he gave them sufficient time to think about that an article was coming out and to repsond to that fact -
his line about hoping for Axl to participate is bullshit if you ask me.
he clearly tips that off in how he answered the question.... he wanted to blind sight Axl/GN'R
notice - he didn't give them time to CONTRIBUTE to the article.
Hoping for Axl to participate?? ?my ass!?

he only allowed time for them to repsond to the fact that he was running this article

BIG DIFFERENCE



Look at how he answerd this question:



he couldn't answer that because as Merck included in his reply - it was apparent that he had been working on it for several weeks - how could he explain working on it for a substantial length of time but then contacting Axl/GN'R Management on Thursday when he's putting it to bed on Monday?

Thursday to Monday inclues only 3 business day... Thursday - the day he first called Merck, Friday, and Monday.
This is exactly only all the time Leed's allowed for them to issue a 'no comment' or to just ignore it.
IT IS NOT ENOUGH TIME for them to ACTUALLY have CONTRIBUTED to the article.
It was never his intention for them to contribute or be involved!!!
If it was he could have contacted them primarily - when he started to comple the article.? Not simply a couple days in advance.? Couple days in advance was simply to advise them of the fact that it was coming out... he says as much in his response!







How far is "so far" supposed to be Leeds?
Up-to-date?? Current??
I think not.? His sources - as Merck pointed out - only took him 'so far' as YEARS BACK.? ?
Those who could have brought him all the way were - as Merck pointed out - not contacted.



and what is Leed's quote about "management said (Axl) couldn't be reached for comment"?

if you ask me that was a huge 'dig' at Merck because he jerked Merck around - calling him 2 days before he puts his story to bed without telling him that - Simply calling to advise them of the fact that it was going to be published and trying to get a 'reponse' to that fact out of Merck.? Then after all that - simply printing a lie that implies that Merck is some kind of incompetent boob who isn't even able to get in touch with his own client? ::)

and hey - the Blair comment might of been out of place IF it wasn't the New York Times we were talking about but as it IS The NY Times who we are talking about then the comment fits in fine.? Leeds will have to deal with the fact that even his beloved NY Times isn't beyond a little reproach.? Blair thought the name shielded him and look where he ended up.






The guy sure knows when to use "no comment".? ?:hihi:




No comment.? ;D




edited to correct 'typo' and correct formatting

Eva, I agree wholeheartedly when you say comment on the fact that his assessment that it is a balanced view on the making of Chinese Democracy so far is blatantly false.  After all, it is 2005 and Tom Zutuat hasn't been involved in the album since 2001.  A lot can change in four years.

Ali

I agree Ali, but to play devils advocate here, it also looks as though alot HAS NOT changed in four years.  It's just one of those situations where I hope I'm wrong, but I feel as though we're in the same situation that we have been in in the past.  No end in sight.

I have to disagree. In all you posts you take For Granted that Merck says us the truth and the journalist tell us lies.

I can't Be sure about that. Merck is Axl's Managwer and he gets paid to defent Axl So that fact makes him difficult to be objective. On the Other Hand The Journalist i don't think that he has a financial gain if the outcome of the article will be positive or negative. He just want to write the Facts. He doesn't seem to take sides.

Now I have long ago stopped taking what GNR management says as 100% truth.

I had tickets for the 2001 European tour and the shows were cancelled to the excuse of buckethead Internal Haemorhage. That reason to me seems very Far Fetched and difficult to believe. Even if he suffered of internal haemmorhage They could have played these shows a month later.
 
Also the same year we had the stupid Excuse of Cancelling twice the European Shows due to tha Manager Jumping the Gun. Come on these shows were the Summer rescheduled shows and Axl new them from the beggining that they existed. Why he didn't cancel them at the time and waited just few weeks before to cancel them,  leaving all Us having our hopes up. The Blame went to the manager so as to cover Axl's Ass.

Probably the same happening with Merck. He tries to cover Axl's Ass

I no longer trust the management of GNR 100%. I wish I could.

what do you have to write about guns n' roses to make it a good article in your eyes anyway jeezz?  :confused: ???

The article is very good, it has dug up more "facts" than any other article written by anyone in a long long time. I'm sure most of you would have loved it if he praised axl up in the sky and talked about how great the new tunes are etc...

He(leeds) neighter slams or worships axl so i must say it's a fairly balanced written article and all those anonymus quotes would have been highly appreciated if in fact the names were given. The fact that they have all signed that contract with axl stopes them from comming out with full names, it doesn't mean that the quotes are bogus tho... if he made them up, merck would have denied them and mr. leeds would probobly have been fired pretty quickly...

I know some of you can't face the fact that axl is FUCKIN' CRAZY, he is alright! Imo it's what makes him so fuckin' interesting, he's not some average joe, he's a super duper rockstar, with a bunsh of talent and a set mind...

Axl didn't let him listen to the album because it's not done, and axl didn't talk to the paper because he doesn't do that kind of stuff, noone should blame leeds for this article, it's well written, and balanced as far as it can be...

Everything Lees says in this interview corroborates what Merck told us.... His comments (and 'no comments') in fact CONFIRM everything Merck said about what transpired between them. ?Merck is telling the truth and Leeds did not deny any of what Merck said. ?

Leeds HIMESLEF indicates that he only contacted them to advise them of the fact that the article was gong to be published AND his 'no comment' when asked how long he had been working on it is a clear indication that Merck was spot ON the mark when he said they already had their own agenda - the article was going to print as-is - just how leed's planned it. ?Leeds only says he wanted their response to that fact. ?His 'no comment' on how long he had been working on the piece is because of exactly what Merck said.

The only lie I have adddressed is how he said "management said (Axl) could not be reached for comment" - ?Merck clearly paints a different picture of what transpired... ?and Leed's does NOT deny any of it.... Rather he CORROBORATES AND CONFIRMS what Merck said... by stating himself that he was only gave them time to respond to the fact that this was going to be published AND his refusal to answer about how long he was working on the piece before he contacted Merck.

It's clear. ?Crystal clear. ?Everything Merck said FITS and makes sense - especially when you see how Leeds answered the questions from Sp1at.

BTW: ?Great questions Sp1at!! ?: ok:

Did you even read the article? He said he spoke to 30 people involved in the Album. How do you know he didn't speak to anyone who knows what's actually going on. For all you know he spoke to the entire band. You might THINK he didn't, but you don't know.
 
Please explain, how did he take the wrong route in writing that piece? And give better examples than Merck said this, Merck said that....I want to hear your analysis, based on what YOU know, not what you think you know, not what you wish or pretend to be true, not what Merck propagated.

Lets hear a fact by refutation by all you people in the know. For example, he stated what the studio costs were at one point, & how much the engineers & players were getting paid. Explain how his numbers were wrong, & tell us what the correct numbers were.

He said he spoke to 30 people involved in the project. Is this a lie? If yes, please explain.

Is this following line from the article a fabrication, a lie?:

HAVING EXCEEDED ALL budgeted and approved recording costs by millions of dollars," the label wrote in a letter dated Feb. 2 , 2004, "it is Mr. Rose's obligation to fund and complete the album, not Geffen's." ?

Did Leeds make up that sentence? If he did, please explain how it's not correct or, since Jayson Blair's name was invoked, come right out & say he made it up.

Was Tom Zutaut lying when he said:

"I really thought I could get him to deliver the record," said Mr. Zutaut, who spent nine months trying. "And we got close."

How does the fact that he's been out of the picture for years negate that statement? did Leeds make it up?

These are just a few examples to get you started. Since this article was so obviously a hatchet job, lets hear the specifics on how & why it is a hatchet job.

The wrong route is in spending a period of time he won't divulge taking us 'so far' and then simply advising the people in the know, 2 days beforehand, of the fact that he was going to publish his story.  If you believe it was the right "route"...? :confused: 

And for your other comments on whether he made things up - or lied about what he was told by whoever ...
Would you even consider that the info he received was inaccurate and/or incomplete? 

If not then there in lies the problem.  You, and possibly hundreds of thousands of others people will take what the NEW YORK TIMES prints and gives rights for re-printing and replublications all round the world - AS FACT.

As for specific refutal on/response on many of the issues you single out, you may enjoy this article:   http://www.sp1at.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=3875#3875

In 2004 Caram Costanzo when questioned about the album by Sp1at said...

"Only a few know the facts; Axl, myself and one other. Unless you speak with one of us, you'll only have fiction. That's a fact. Thank you"

I point you in the direction of the Sp1at article also (seeing as I am the author and the fact that on reading it Merck OK'd it)...

http://www.sp1at.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=608

seems like sp1at also wants their "15 minutes of fame" ::)

Dude, you are associated with a fucking RUMOR BOARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You are no more credible than the NY TIMES writer in our eyes.

NEW YORK TIMES writer Leeds apparently thought enough of Sp1at and Gigger's creditials- enough so to grant him an interview.   ;)

and that interview was BEFORE gigger wrote and sent "his side" of the story.

He's still associated with a RUMOR BOARD regardless of what he says or does and that is pure FACT ::)

"our eyes"? You taken it upon yourself to speak on behalf of everyone else now?

Merck didn't seem to have a problem with the article I wrote, and Brain kindly commented for the article so according to some of the "fairly" important people we're credible.

Speaking to Merck, Brain and using a past publicly unknown comment from Caram Costanzo actually equates to a lot more research than the NY Times did! ?:rofl:

But hey, you're entitled to your opinion. Maybe in future you can actually try and express it eloquently rather than rubbishing something without any evidence... ?::)

Actually the article was already written before Jeff Leeds's interview. The majority of the article was written on Sunday. It was sent to Merck for his comments on Monday.

I waited for Leeds's interview to come in so that I could change any info that may have arisen in his interview and changed the circumstances. As it is his comments made no difference to what I had already written.

Let me spell it out for you

SP1aT.com equals RUMOR BOARD
maybe you ?need glasses

It does not matter what you say or contribute. ?You are associated with a RUMOR BOARD. ?How do you expect anyone to believe what you say? ?All you are is a fan just like everyone else on here. ::)

and how does that change the FACT that Leed's granted the interview to Sp1at - indicating his approval of their credentials?

the writer of Sp1at's article is a fan who was granted an interview by NEW YORK TIMES writer Jeff Leeds - of his own volition.

There is a section of the Sp1at forum site that is a rumourboard. The main site is a music site not a Guns n Roses rumourboard. No need to spell it out for me but I just thought I should clarify that. (I don't want this to descend into a "Is Sp1at credible" thread because I know it pisses off Jarmo and the rest of the mods.

I know I'm "just a fan", I never claimed to be anything else. I wrote the article as "just a fan" that's perfectly clear if you read it. I did circulate it to a number of high up people in the GnR World and the music industry.

You don't have to believe what I say. As I said, you're entitled to your opinion. The fact that the article I wrote, if bullshit, is highly libellous would surely make you think that I'm telling the truth.

I'd have to be crazy to make all these claims if they weren't true and then send the article to people at MTV, UMG and actual band members. I can prove that the claims I make are true, I could forward you emails that I sent and received and I could put you in touch with the people quoted in the article but why should I?

The people who are doubters shall remain doubters and the people who believe are free to believe. It is not my job to prove otherwise.

P.S. I do need glasses. I'm fairly short-sighted... Altho I favour contacts. ?:rofl:

BURN IN HELL SP1AT!!!  BURRNNN!!!!









Just having fun.  I like you guys.

 :rofl: : ok:

I'm sure that when we die we will be consigned to hell for making up all our lies...  :rofl:

Maybe the Devil will have a reserves copy of Chinese Democracy waiting for us to listen to.

In exchange for our souls of course  :peace:

while the new york times article is an article on gn'r and the making of a very intresting record, your(Gigger) article is pure leeds bashing... it doesn't really matter if the chicken shit was made for bucket himself or buckets pets you know, it's about the music of gn'r which means that you contibruted to as much info as leeds which equals nothing...

i guess it's nice to read something positiv related to gn'r and Axl for once, but fuck it if it has to be on the wrong terms, it's almost like you're sucking up to axl hoping he might read it... i'm not going to slam your article, but i just don't see why leeds' article was so bad eighter... i think leeds stepped very carefully when he wrote the nyt articlet... if you think it's perfectly normal what axl is doing and you aren't intrgued by it any you just like to be objective to defend him like you would defend anyone i can totaly take your side tho...

In ways, yeah you're totally right.  Nothing has changed in that we have no official word that we are any closer to the release of the album than in 2001.  However, I think a lot may have changed in what songs are on the album, and possibly what mixes of particular songs.  Therefore, what the people Leeds quoted heard, including Tom Zutuat, may not at all resemble the album that CD is today.

Ali

Boo fucking hoo. Axl doesn't need a hug he needs a kick in the ass. I mean 13 million of the record companies money and still no album. DO you know how many talented young great bands didn't get signed for 500,000 because axl feels the need to an egostar and 'create the greatest album in the world'

I love axl don't get me wrong. Spending all that time and money and still not delivering is not cool. Axl is in a place that any musician can only have wetdreams about and still he feels like everyone is out to get him. Spending 13 million on an album and not keeping your word isn't cool and I don't feel sorry for him at all.

The pressure.... he's created the pressure himself and the longer he waits the more pressure there will be, Its not like he hasn't had more than enough time, money, talent, and resources to get this album out.

The only person axl has to blame for the pressure is himself

People say axl doesn't owe us anything... I say ya he does because with the money geffen/interscope has spent on this album we could have had other young great bands signed and albums released. He owes it to geffen to finish the record because he said he would, thus he owes us because he made a promise to make a record by XXX amount of time.

look at the title of sp1at's article - it's called "get in the ring 2005" ?:P
um... so what? ?

the article was in response to the the content of Leed's article...
there were no claims made that it was a 'news' piece. ?(despite a couple great new quotes being shared with us)
look at it as an 'editorial' piece or 'critical review' of the NY Times article....
and as such it invites the readers to consider alternative views other than were presented in the NY Times article

Well, there you have it. STOP THE PRESSES! Caram Cosentino has spoken!

More words. Empty, hollow, meaningless words. Welcome to the world of GnR.

Empty, hollow, meaningless words.


oops sorry.

there must be an echo in here.
must be all the empty hollow meaningless words flying around.
 :nervous:

And where do you think the money Geffen spent on the album came from? Do you have any idea how much money Axl's work (with others) made the record company? Do you have any idea how many of the cool bands you listen to were perhaps influenced by Axl and Guns N' Roses? So I guess you own Axl, huh?
Is that really your argument to explain Axl owes anyone anything? Do you have a copy of his contract with his record company?

If anything you should look up to a person who doesn't cave in to the pressure; someone making an album that's going to carry his name and the Guns N' Roses name, and if he needs 20 years to get something he's happy with, then great for him. Personally I can only thank him for not puting out a crappy album, and instead working on something he believes will be that much better. People will not blame Geffen if it sucks, people will not blame Jeff Leeds if it sucks.
The record company wants an album that will make them money. Axl wants an album that will make him and his fans happy. So, do you work for the record company or what?  ::)

yeah get in the ring 2005 great, my point is that it's a suck up article based on a veiw from a die hard fan who wouldn't say anything bad about axl even if axl did something bad, you dig?

If it really was great i think merck would have offered it at least a comment...

If you're in the outside world meaning outside this little gn'r bubble you would appreciate mr. leeds article alot more since it's actually pretty informing on what has been going on during a certain period of time, gigger's article is pure shit compared to leeds and you'd have to be a die hard fan who read the leeds article first to appreciate gigger's follow up...

what makes a fan written article les bias than a journalists if thats the point? and those two quotes, i bet leeds doesn't belive in them anyway, what could possible give gigger more credit than leeds?

Just because you like this(giggers) side of the story doesn't make it a better article and it doesn't burry leeds article in any way, and the fact that leeds doesn't eat breeth and sleep gn'r makes his research and meetings with former producers etc alot more interesting than just another fanletter imo...

btw, not everything written in a newspaper is news, EVEN tho it's called a newspaper :hihi:...

and i can't "look at it as an 'editorial' piece or 'critical review' of the NY Times article...." because then it wouldn't have been even more bias, and all cred just flies out the window when this gigger tries to be Axl at the end of the article bashing leeds... i'd be very surprised if anyone other than fan boards print this article, it's just not readable for anyone who's not way too into this new album that we're waiting for....

I haven't read other posts but I'm with ya erose.
We don't know what Axl actually thinks about this article yet.
Yeah, I trust Merck. He doesn't say like Axl said that and that.

BTW, Why don't people Think a bit objectively. I'm yet to know whether it is or not and to whom it's a hatchet job but it's clear that This article is based only on Geffen/Uni/Interscope's position. The label kinda quitted the project and chose GH over CD more than a year ago. Early this year Sanctuary announced the deal with GN'R and there are lots of GN'R mentions in Sanctuary documents. And now this article comes out of the blue focusing on the economy side only from the the other company's point of view.?What does it mean as a whole? Of course Sanctuary defends themselves and their client even if the client doesn't give a fuck. They're not dopes.

by nature, an editorial is 'bias' because it expresses the opinion of the writer/publication. Opinions by nature are um... opinionated ;)

And I never said that it "burries leeds article"...  i said, and excuse me for quoting myself but i apparently need to repeat myself:


why is any opinion expressed that can be construed as favorable to Axl considered as "sucking up"?

merck not offering comment to include in the article is no indication that he did not approve of the article

he did, as the writer shared with us, review and approve of it.  (of course you or anyone can claim that the writer made that up *sigh*)

you ask what could possibly give Gigger more credit than Leeds? 
 ???
I said that Leed's having granted Sp1at.com the interview would indicate that Leeds found their credentials to be up to snuff. 

and i disagree, an interview or research done by a 'fan', being more interested in an artist, can produce a more interesting result.
and i do not believe that the writer "eats, breathes, and sleeps GN'R"....   Sp1at.com is NOT a GN'R site... (but i don't want to go off topic here so that'll be up to you to figure out for yourself)

as for Leeds believing the quotes offered in Sp1at.com's article...   why is that relevant?
Either you believe 'em or not - just like we all can choose to take Leeds sources' info as gospel (/news) or not.

hundreds of thousands of people have/will read Leeds' article and take it all as FACT because it is the NY Times.
many of our own board members found their mood and outlook to be grim  based on the 'stark ending'* cited by Leeds and the disasterous, unproductive process that according to Leeds in his inteview with Sp1at is the story of Chinese Democracy "so far".

If I tell you that "so far", this is where something stands" would not my use of the words "so far" give you the impression that I am speaking up to this point in time - the present?  Leeds said that he gave a fair depiction of the process of Chinese Democracy so far.
Those are Leeds own words erose.

I feel the need to repeat that "so far" means "as of now" / "currently" etc. 
So you say that everything that is printed in a newspaper isn't news.
True.  I've even mentioned a couple of the other forms of writing that appear in newspapers (such as editorials and critical reviews.)

How do YOU categorize Leeds' story erose?







*note "stark ending" is Leeds words he used in describing "the process" as in (it/the process/story) has a stark ending

I believe, at the very least, its safe to reasonably assume that Axl will not be pleased that 'un-named sources' violated their employment and confidentiality agreements.  Nor will the employers of those sources that were based in the record company and recording studio(s).

I believe that this article coming out now is because it will be even more 'moot' once CD is released.  The writer and editor may have felt that  if they were ever going to put their juicy tid-bits of info collected from their 'un-named' sources to use - now would be the time... perhaps because they believe, contrary to what is emphasized in the article (*rolls eyes*), that CD is near release.  When that time comes there will be a whole different type of coverage. 

Who knows though... something could be rumbling beneath even the parking garages at Geffen/Interscope and it may be causing some to come running out at this time figuring they have 'nothing to lose' by offering this info.

And.. um... before someone feels the need to state the obvious - that my comments are speculation...   
please allow me to save you the post.
I am speculating.*



*http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=speculating  ;D

first of i must say that i didn't direct "Just because you like this(giggers) side of the story doesn't make it a better article and it doesn't burry leeds article in any way, and the fact that leeds doesn't eat breeth and sleep gn'r makes his research and meetings with former producers etc alot more interesting than just another fanletter imo...
" to anyone in particular, it should have said "just because one like this....." And eva i must say that i do agree with most of what you say.

what i don't like tho is the bashing of mr. leeds article or person, why, because it's just not that bad. there might be one or two minor details which isn't up to par, but overall it's pretty good and i believe that it's more acurate than people on this board would like to admit...

To take a look at giggers cred, sure anyone can e-mail a writer and ask him for an interview, i'm sure leeds don't get a whole lot of interview requests so... besides, there's no chance in hell that leeds would have given the interview if he had read giggers article first, in that way gigger was a real pussy who took the cheapest shot i've ever seen... first he sucked up to get an interview, then he just slammed him with all he got... no wonder journalists can't write when those who critisize can't write eighter, it goes around i guess...

I also agree that a fan article can be very healthy compared to a predjudis writer, but again, if the leeds article was all bs he couldn't have written it, there's no way he made up those quotes, if he did merck would have dismissed them all which he didn't... and leeds would have gotten the boot etc... that can't happen with a fan writing or an interview so he has nothing to watch out for and can therefor write what he likes to believe... Gigger has no cred compared to mr. leeds... if gigger got a serious writing position in NYT and leeds lost his job i might change my mind tho...? ;D

when you say that the article "invites the readers to consider alternative views other than were presented in the NY Times article" i guess you're right, but everyone who reads the papers should have that programmed in their head, to consider alternative views i mean, one whouldn't need an article of giggers low caliber to do that... and lets say a guy who didn't know about gn'r read giggers piece, he would also have to consider alternative views...

it would tho be very interesting if gigger wrote "The most expensive album ever made" as a contradiction to leeds piece, then we could judge his objectivety and writing skills etc. as far as i can see giggers piece is worthless, just like this post and all other posts, except for maybe mysterions  ;)

BTW: When it looks to me like most people object to leeds article and get upset about what he writes about axl, i think the article makes axl look extremely cool, like he's on top of everything and that the album will be out when axl's done with it... i don't get where all this negativety comes from???

pjufff...  : ok:

Oh Boy Youngunner, you don't know who you are messing with.
I am as big an Axl fan as you are, but at least I don't live in a fantasy world. I can dance like Axl, I know everything about the guy (that is everything prior to 1994) - I turn to him for my ultimate inspiration. Its gotten me far, I live on the memory of a glory that has past but whose testimony is in every medlody, lyrics and visual performance. Whatever Axl has been doing since 1994 is a far long cry from what he was doing prior to that - you can agree to that (I Hope).

How can you say that Axl doesn't care about the spotlight? How can you say that?
Axl was a RockStar for G-d Sakes! He cares so much about the spotlight that he couldn't stand it when other rockers were taking his place at the forefront of rock celebrity in the early-mid 1990s. He's a "Victory or Death" person who would either be at 100% or 0%. There's no middle ground to negotiate with Axl, either he gets his way (and will put out the NU-GNR TRILOGY) or he won't put out another note of music. I don't like it when Axl puts up a front - he's been through a lot but still pretends like it doesn't mean anything to him - like the spotlight doesn't matter - because it does. If it didn't, he would have done that SPAGHETTI INCIDENT 1994 CLUB TOUR. I can only imagine how much it would have rocked to see Axl in all his rock stardom in the clubs doing "Down On The Farm"! ?:drool:

And Younggunner, you forget about all the wonderful things that Axl was planning to do following the UYI Tour, including collaborating with U2, putting out "the Perfect Crime" - GNR documentary, putting out his BIO "Shattered Illusions", starting up a record company (reviving the UZI Label) and producing band, and even acting in a "Tales from the Crypt" in an episode penned by Del James. Not to mention that Axl wanted to act and he could (look at his UYI Trilogy). And this is all BEFORE EVEN PUTTING OUT A RECORD. I know the law suits and BS got in the way, but still.

Better to have a bird in the hand than 2 in the bush.
 ;D
MNR

Seeing as I'm the one being talked about I feel like I should probably respond now...? ;)


As I wrote in my article, I have no contention that the article he wrote was accurate to what happened up until 1999. You could even maybe suggest that up until 2001 it isn't accurate as to what happened between 2001 and today. That's a fact. He didn't speak to the people who worked on the album in that period... Plain and simple...

I had a slight problem with this lack of investigation from a so called investigative journalist.


Firstly, I didn't request or do the interview with Jeff Leeds. I had nothing to do with it. The article was written on Sunday, the interview was done on Wednesday. When I heard about the interview (about 3 hours before I made the article public) I was asked not to upload the article until the interview was done so that I could review my article and make any changes that the interview may have made appropriate. The interview changed none of my views and the article ran as originally intended.

So before you go calling me a "real pussy who took the cheapest shot" again, you may wish to make sure you have your facts right. Just an observation.


I'd never want to become a journalist. I work with them on a daily basis and they are all scumbags... (Sorry to any journalists but it is true!? :hihi:). I have been published on numerous occasions (I don't know an exact number but I'd guess in excess of 50 times in 8 different publications ranging from daily newspapers in the UK to smaller industry based magazines with circulations of around 1000). I haven't heard back from the editor of the NY Times, so I don't think they will be offering me a job or sacking Leeds!? :rofl:


The article was written as an alternative to the NY Times piece. It is meant to be read having read the NY Times article. It's a critical analysis if you like. Would you read the critical analysis of a book without reading the book? No...

People should always question what they read. It's moronic not to. I would say that the "low caliber" of the writer isn't based on where they are published. Some of the best articles I have ever read have been written by "bloggers" on websites. I know of a number of journalists in the UK that actually regularly use the "low caliber" journalists (from the internet) as inspirations for their features. You shouldn't dismiss something because it only has a circulation of 200 people (that's how many have read my article so far I think), and you shouldn't accept something as gospel because it has a massive circulation. I'm sure Mr. Blair (in the US) and Mr. Morgan (in the UK) will back me up on that point too!? ::)


The original aim of my article was to write it as a much more objective piece but after the NY Times article very few people were willing to comment on the situation as it was deemed too sensivite. It was actually refreshing to see a fair amount of loyality being shown to Axl by the people that I contacted, there unwillingness to comment on the subject spoke volumes to me.

As a result of the inability to gain new information I had to write the article on what we already knew (but threw in a few new comments from Costanzo and Brain for example). I personally have nothing against Leeds, I've never met him and most likely never will. I did think his article whilst incredibly well written and well structured was neither balanced nor fair like he claimed and I didn't feel the need to write the article in a balanced or fair fashion either. His piece was a fine example of how the English language should be written, in my opinion, it wasn't a fine example of investigative journalism.

I did do a bit of "Axl-bashing" myself in fairness and mentioned that he has alienated fans by his silence, mentioning his lack of "internal peace" and talking about the litigation with Stephanie Seymour. But by writing another entirely negative article on Axl Rose I would merely be stepping on the toes of people like Leeds and Peter Wilkinson. I felt no need to regurgitate what has already been covered in the "reputable" media.

As for the fact that all posts are worthless except Mysterons. Well to me that's a bizarre comment... But I will say that some (not all) of the information Mysteron gets is open to the general public if you know where to look. There are no such things as insiders in the GnR world, what Mysteron says isn't gospel (and I'm sure Mysteron will agree with me). But people on this forum do tend to think that Mysteron and only Mysteron has any clue about GnR. (I'm not suggesting that I do...) That's not meant to be seen as Mysteron bashing, more just how I view the info he gets...

What I do know about what I wrote is that it was read by the people that I actually wanted it to be read by. Jimmy Iovine will have got to work on Thursday morning and had a copy of the article in his inbox, as will many others...

I don't really mind if you don't like it... And I don't mind if a thousand other people don't like it. I know that there are some people that enjoyed reading it and with that I mind I am sure that I didn't waste my time...


But hey... I'm just "a pussy" aren't I?? :'(

No i don't own axl. But Its not cool not fulfill your promises. Do you think geffen would have given axl all that money if they they'd still be sitting here in 2005 empty handed. Yea axl made geffen millions, but geffen made axl millions too. Without their support he'd be selling crack in hollywood.

It doesn't take 13 million to make an album... plain and simple.

People are like poor axl this and that.

Ya the poor guy who gets more money to indulge his fantasy than anyone else could ever dream of.

He could have been considerate and spent millions less. Set up the equipment in your own studio as opposed to renting out expensive ones for months at a time with no productivity.

Keep your contract obiligations.... it says something when the record company puts out a greatest hits package without the artist's permession. Don't think axl hasn't broken his word.

He may not own me personally an album but he owes his record company.

"If anything you should look up to a person who doesn't cave in to the pressure; someone making an album that's going to carry his name and the Guns N' Roses name, and if he needs 20 years to get something he's happy with, then great for him. Personally I can only thank him for not puting out a crappy album, and instead working on something he believes will be that much better."

Cave in under pressure... he needs to stand up and show the world he believes in his 13million dollar art, not hide in the shadows. Appetite was amazing, the illusions were amazing... and he could have recorded them over 10 times each with the money he's spent AND ALBUMS COST MORE TO MAKE BACK THEN.

I love the guy but its really time to shit or get off the pot

i'm sorry gigger, you're not a pussy, i didn't mean to insult you, hmmm, sucker or fucker might have been more appropriate...

I'm glad we can agree on the fact that the article is fairly acurate up until 2001 tho, that was my biggest issue, the article is not bull shit, it's just not about the last three four years...

Cool. ? : ok:


For the most part, none of us are in a position to either vouch for nor refute... ?prove nor disprove the 'accuracy' of any of the info his un-named sources provided. ?(I don't think anyone is saying he made-up the stories or the figures quoted.)
We ALL however, as you seem to recognize and relate in the following quote, ARE in a position to question these accounts and the motives of those who provided them.


I think its cool that there besides considering these alternative views, someone was moved to put some of those alternative views in writing. ? ;)


Cool.   : ok:


What spurred the negativity I think could arguably be found, right off the bad, ?in the very title: ?"The Most Expensive Album Never Made".

Cool that you as someone who is obviously otherwise informed about Axl and GN'R can find 'the silver lining'.
I doubt howver, that can be said about the vast majority of the hundreds of thousands of persons who have/will read this article. ?

 :-\

Who really gives a shit at this point of the thread?! You are arguing over absolutely nothing-literally nothing. Another half ass article by a shit newspaper. Gigger's article is much better but is watered down by his over the top Leeds bashing and Axl ass kissing.  So what? Reality-no release date, album's not finished, no tour dates-NOTHING-no rumors at this time either-NOTHING. ::)

I just skimmed this "article" and its nothing more than a fans long messsage board post.

And nothing personal, Gigger, but youre writing is terrible.  Normally I never criticize anybodys writing (you cant find one post on this forum in which I do so), but since youre passing this off as an article, I think its a valid criticism.  Your syntax and punctuation needs a lot of work.  Again, perfectly fine as a message board post, but one very poor article (as you feel inclined to call it).

You lost me after railing against Leeds for "trying to bring Axl down."  Come on... ::) 

 : ok:

My evaluation of a written piece, does not depend on the writer's eloquence.  We're not talking about poetry in either case...
but I found Leeds style to be rather sensational and dramatic...  whereas  I found much more sincerity in Gigger's piece.

No offence taken, don't worry

As for Bookers comment, I found the article easy to read. I know that some people find it hard to read long sentences. I think it's a form of dyslexia commonly brought on by conditions such as autism and ADD. You'll find, therefore, that alot of journalists keep their sentences short.  Authors, though, are another matter.

Punctuation, such as commas, are a personal thing, or so I was taught at school (any moons ago  :hihi: )

but do you really think that the people who read this article will think that there's actually no album?

if one look a little deeper than this article, lets say skip by htgth for five minutes, there's no doubht that there's an album in the making and we have all heard what 6 7 new songs, a bunch of rumored titles, release plans, supposed leak, the cd tour and the list goes on, i mean there IS an album, but it's just not pressed into millions of copies so to your average joe it's not made yet... The headline of an article is usually a word play or something to tease the reader with, so i think the title is pretty cool, might be a little provocing to a few, but hey... ?:smoking: ?:peace:

Isn't sensational and dramatic something you would want in everything you read Eva? ;)

I'm very glad tho that leeds didn't comment on anything stupid like axl's hair or body fat botox or fuckin' football jerseys...

Hey it's friday, to the bar people ?:beer:

edit: to comment on mysteron. I didn't emply that mysteron has anything to do with gn'r, for all i know he could be Jarmo  :hihi:, what i meant was that i have never seen him post meaningless shit. he usually provides credible information with a source in one form or another and thats it, it would be boring here at htgth if you only looked at mysterons posts tho...

Mysteron, I don't know what school you went to, but the use of commas and punctuation is not a "personal" thing.? There are specific rules for when to use commas and when not to. The "article" does have very poor use of commas and loads of run on sentences. I don't really give a shit, but if "splat" wants to be some form of journalistic site, they may need a proper editor.? : ok: Booker???

You would be one of those people, if thats what youve extracted from my post.?

I said it was poorly written, not unintelligible.? Its a collection of awkardly worded run-on sentences, not "long sentences."?


Not to mention properly written.? Thank God the New York Times will never run this:

"Jeff Leeds, enjoy your 15 minutes of fame, you ridiculed someone who you aren't even worthy to be mentioned in the same sentence as, and you did so without even giving him a chance to defend himself and ran the article without giving Axl's manager a chance to talk over the story with the man himself."

 :nervous:

The aricle is bad news. The record company isn' even supporting CD anymore. Now Axl can really take his sweet time with it.

 I am very sorry to say this to you, Booker, because lately I've warmed up to you alot and have begun to see from where you are coming, but I feel you need to cut Gigger some slack. The man put some serious effort and research into that article. Although it is not a professional piece of writing, it is neither a terrible one either. Almost all articles are spell checked, fact checked, and proofread by dozens of editors and interns before they are submitted for publication. I doubt gigger had access to any of those professional emenities.

I would encourage you to limit your criticism to the constructive type, such as the ones you end your paragraph with  above, and avoid judgments on the man's abilities, such as 'your writing is terrible." Anyone is capable of making silly grammerical errors: especially the inadvertant substitution of 'youre' with 'your' as you did in your paragraph above.

Mr. Sunshine and Lollipops has returned. I see you have subscribed to the 'label has dropped GnR's financial backing' theory. Please for the benefit of the mob, tell us exactly the source of this information other than Mr. Leeds' piece.

I'm open to criticism... But I find it highly ironic that in the sentence you accuse me of having a terrible writing style you make a very basic grammatical error...

"And nothing personal, Gigger, but youre writing is terrible."

I'd also point out that I've been published a number of times (as mentioned in previous posts) but fortunately editors do the less interesting job of correcting the grammar.

If you think my grammar's bad I suggest you read some of the poet EE Cummins' work... A great American poet whoused extensive creative license with grammar. I also subscribe to the theory that you should be allowed your own personal license with grammar, I adopted one for the entirety of my English degree and it served me fairly well...  :hihi:

I said the source. The article. If the article is bullshit, then Axl should come out of his cave and defend himself instead of sending out his hired goons.

If the article is bullshit, why should he acknowledge it anyway? Instead, why not let his actions in the coming months do his own talking?

As I've said before, Merck's statement is enough if there is some action behind it.

Now that is funny!  You've made a new best friend sir :rofl:  Perhaps he is MYGNR.com's Kaneda.  Oh and, please don't critisize my spelling and punctuation.  I know I suck.

I was waiting for somebody to bring this up...

I dont know if anyone has noticed, but I rarely use apostrophes when posting on message boards. ?I dont know why, but I just dont. ?And sometimes I use the wrong variation of "your." ?With that said, youll never see me pass my posts off as "articles," no matter how long or otherwise well-written they are. ?If I were going to be so sanctimonius as to pass a post off as an article, I would make sure it was well-written. ?


Well, if thats your philosophy, then great. ?I tend to be critical when I see message board posters pass their work off as actual journalism (by calling what are essentially posts "articles"). ?In fact, I actually signed up to Mygnr.com just so I could criticize an overzealous VR fans concert review. ?Not only was it a disastrously written, but halfway plagiarized. ?Yet she swore it was actually published in a magazine. ?I think its nice that you made the effort to write such a detailed post, but like Ive said, Id be more apprehensive about passing posts off as articles. ?I also have to say that I completely disagree with your posts premise: that Jeff Leeds wrote his article to bring Axl down. ?Power to ya anyway. ?:beer:

Much better. Thanks for that, Booker. ;)

Gigger, your trying to be a journalist with that piece...not a creative writer or poet. Just the facts baby! I do like the info that comes from Splat. You guys do get some good little tidbits. Like the Costanzo comment "only three guys know the real truth". Did anyone notice that? 3 not 8-10. In other words, the band members don't even know the truth?? :rofl:?

It might be kind of you that you provided the link to the dictionary and My grammar is an utter horror. but I knew what the speculating means.

Just my speculations are partly different to yours. That's all.

!!)Perhaps I'm the only one who has a difficulty seeing Axl as the soul of vindictiveness. I don't consider it an improved image better than What the article pictures him either. Ok, this is my beef about this.

!!)'un-named sources' seems to know a fat lot of critical facts that are relevant. I mean this article doesn't cover the current state of the band or the album. I guess none of them could possibly know of any of confidential affairs crucial to the present stage, if not those were not needed for this article. (judging from the contents that are nothing new to us, as someone suggested, they possibly be the same "informers" who've been offering the identical rumours)

!!!)I doubt if the confidentiality agreements were so exorbitantly different to customary office regulations as alleged. Having employees sign a confidentiality agreement as part of their employment contract... IS A STANDARD BUSINESS PRACTICE, is nay? I think no professionalist is allowed to disclose their business secret unless under some very special circumstances.

Furthermore,

!!!!)With CD being coming out this year, soon there should be another article that is "less biased" and state-of-the-art covering the album n the band, hopefully on a paper as reputed as NY times.
I mean, measure for measure, major for major. :smoking:

!!!!!)I believe what Merck said in his letter is true.

To sum up, I don't see any point in his wasting his precious time in a rage against this petty poo for now. No, it's not pleasant to be written that way. But knowing how the errors will be corrected and who will have the last laugh, he possibly can't bother with this so much. That's how I speculate. :peace:

Yes, I also realized this. IMO it only proves that Costanzo can be right. Imagine if he named Stinson or Dizzy as other guys who knew what was going on - nobody would believe in his words. Sad but true.

It's a strange comment from Costanzo...

He said only he, Axl and one other know the truth.

But I'd assume that Dan Monti would "know the truth" as he is Costanzo's assistant, and I'd assume that Eric Cadieux knows "the truth" too as he worked with Costanzo on the album.

Plus... Axl has worked with the producer Curt Cuomo since working with Costanzo.

So that probably makes it up to about 5 people - Axl, Costanzo, Monti, Cadieux, Cuomo. And then you'd imagine that Merck and Deke Arlon (CEO of Sanctuary Music Publishing) demanded "the truth" before finalising the new Publishing Deal. So in all there are probably around 7 people who know exactly what has gone on in the last 18 months... Funnily enough only one of them is in the band!  :rofl:

Is that funny for you madagas?True. I mean nobody would believe bit. But It's not correct because I wouldn't change my mind whether he named Stinson or Dizzy.
I don't know what the real truth was about. And who was the other person.

I believe the other person who offered comment that gigger quoted was Brain, who said something like "all publicity is good publicty - its when they stop talking about you that you gotta worry'

And gigger implemented a preiviously submitted comment from someone at Vilage REcording studios, the date which would go to demonstrate that GN'R were still recording there at a time which one of Leeds' sources indicates they were not.

first of all, calling axl spoiled takes away alot of your credibility as you seem like more of a basher than a critic. of anyone's not spoiled, it's axl. he came from a poor broken home to l.a. without a thing and he has worked himself up to earning millions by putting out some of the best music that's out there and putting his life in this band and working his ass off. so don't call him spoiled. axl is in his full right to spend his well-earned money the way it suits him.
now, as for what axl is doing not being rock and roll, hell, axl and the rest of the old guns put out fucking APPETITE FOR DESTRUCTION as their debut album, so you're fucking talking about the wrong person not being rock and roll.
and it becomes clearer and clearer to me that axl's vision for this project and these albums is bigger than we've all imagined. i've always believed that axl is a modern day musical genius, and i think he wants to prove himself once and for all with this album. and he will. so let him take his time. no one's forcing you to wait around for christ's sake, just leave if you want to, the rest of us who wants to stick by axl will be among the proudest fans in the world when this project is finally wrapped up.
one thing i wonder though: call me stupid but how is axl gonna release this thing when geffen's had enough and stopped funding him? is he independent now or what? is he still attached to geffen in some way?

and am i the only one who reacted to the fact that these sources obviously betrayed their confidence and agreements with axl by talking behind his back to a newspaper which they must've known would not portray him as a good guy? (shocker)
anyway, some of these people have their own reasons for talking about what they no longer know much about, namely a distant relationship with axl, their 15 minutes of fame and the bitterness of no longer being part of this grandiose project.

as much as they don't know shit about axl
you don't know a lot about these people. so don't start judging them and all, maybe they're nice guys with kids and wives and bikes and cars :)

i agree, the overly dramatic antics of some of these board members will be swept under the carpet when they claim to be axl's firm supporters once CD drops.

one of the best and truest posts ever made. supported 100%. 8)

LMAO! what makes you think that?? a statement like that is so ridicilous in itself that it just HAS to be false. if geffen at any point was offered chinese democracy by axl they would take it and run, believe me.

exactly.. The hearing of computers in use and everything else what kind of rock is that? He said he had big guns years n years ago then he's still working on it redid the shit 5-6 times.. Anyone can make a better album if they just keep working on the same shit over and over.. It's a fucking boring soap opera, all everyone does is say it's a plan it's this it's that.. Sounds like someone who doesn't know what he's doing and has no faith in his work.. How many musicinans for hire have come through?/ 13 million  tons of people on this.. Sounds like a real group project.. Everybody and their mother has been involved,, He's just a spoiled pampered millionaire who has endless time and gives not a care about his fans.. One album, that's all anyone wants and he can't deliver, instead he has people trying to bend over backwards and he fucks them over, he hired all these guys and they never get to do anything with the band.. Sounds like one go maniac trying to make this super album while fucking everyone else over..
I just pray none of his music sounds anything like those boots..

first of all, calling axl spoiled takes away alot of your credibility as you seem like more of a basher than a critic. of anyone's not spoiled, it's axl. he came from a poor broken home to l.a. without a thing and he has worked himself up to earning millions by putting out some of the best music that's out there and putting his life in this band and working his ass off. so don't call him spoiled. axl is in his full right to spend his well-earned money the way it suits him.
now, as for what axl is doing not being rock and roll, hell, axl and the rest of the old guns put out fucking APPETITE FOR DESTRUCTION as their debut album, so you're fucking talking about the wrong person not being rock and roll.
and it becomes clearer and clearer to me that axl's vision for this project and these albums is bigger than we've all imagined. i've always believed that axl is a modern day musical genius, and i think he wants to prove himself once and for all with this album. and he will. so let him take his time. no one's forcing you to wait around for christ's sake, just leave if you want to, the rest of us who wants to stick by axl will be among the proudest fans in the world when this project is finally wrapped up.
one thing i wonder though: call me stupid but how is axl gonna release this thing when geffen's had enough and stopped funding him? is he independent now or what? is he still attached to geffen in some way?

First off, not all of us here blindly support Axl.  What I am saying is we do support him BUT we do see that this just doesn't make sense all this time, all this waiting, to the point that Geffen has pulled the plug on funding, Axl is the blame for that no one else.  Can't blame Geffen, they put 13 mil into this project enough is enough,  time for Axl to deliver.  How long does it take, this album has been worked on since 1999.  You tell me August, when is enough, enough already.   There are those of us on here who feel this way.  Doesn't mean we are bashing Axl, it means we are frustrated beyond belief that it's taken so long and the silence is deafening.   He is a professional and he doesn't act like one sometimes.  Do you think Axl really, really, really cares about his fans?  I think he does to a degree, I think when he is out there, touring and promoting and playing he does but when he is not, I don't know, I can't really say that I fully believe, 100% that he does.   Or, he would make a statement or something to let us know that we who do support him and have supported him all this time, knows when we can expect this 7 year in the making album.   Is he taking his time to make a "Masterpiece" and who is the judge, Axl...I fear that we will never see it, if that is the case.

i think, as the article somewhat points out, that axl has become so buried under all of his visions and all of his work that he doesn't know how to put it all together into one package, mixed with the fact that he doesn't want this album to come out unless it is perfect in his eyes. this is a somewhat sad personal situation for him, but it also tells me that axl truly wants to make the best damn guns record possible, and not only for himself, but to live up to the enormous expectations from the fans and the rest of the world, to live up and again add new glory to the name guns n' roses. he wants this project to surpass his previous efforts, and this is obviously a task so big that is crumbling under it, but not giving up, because he, as we do, knows what he is capable of. this to me is personally alot more satisfying than if he was to rush out some half-done, half-assed album under the guns n' roses name and ruin it's legacy. and i think in the end, most fans will end up thanking him for it.

so long as Axl hasn't given up... ?then it's coming

even if Geffen were to 'give up'... ?Axl would still own the songs

(the record company would own the recordings - but the songs are still Axl's 'intellectual property')

personally, I don't believe Axl will ever give up

... and unless there is some indication of that (evidence of which has never been offered) then I'm not giving up ?: ok:

I hear you in that sense, I can understand not rushing an album out, we all know Axl would never do that.  He does want to make the best album that he possibly can and hats off to him for that and I do as a fan appreciate that emensly but too long is too long. 
I do feel somewhat sorry for him that this may be out of his control because as you said he could be buried but you know, only he has the power to unbury himself and if he needs to swallow a little pride and get some help then so be it.  I hope he is not trying to be the hero and take this on all by himself cause it ain't working.    Truly we are only speculating on what's happening but all the tidbits we have heard from various people all point to this conclusion as to the reason for the huge delay.

tidbits is what the NY Times article is IMO... and old tidbits at that
(old tidbits...? sounds nasty eh?? ;D )

Everything in the NY Times piece is MOOT... the statement from Sanctuary regarding "dozens of newly recorded tracks" is a lot more than a tid-bit and a lot fresher...
a much more? current (therefore, more accurante) indication of the status of 'The Most Expensive Album Yet To Be Released...

Leeds "stark ending" angle was crafted irresponsibly and wrecklessly in an attempt to make use of his old tidbits. ::)
It ain't over til the fat lady... err...  Axl sings ;)

but... let's not get back on that sore subject...

I like the way this thread has headed


 :beer:

I believe the reason for the delay surely yes, in the past, would be due to a lot of things such as band member line-up changes...? the band becoming a band... the style / Axl's vision changing... and perhaps more recently Axl demanding of himself no less than what he believes to be the absolute best lyrics and vocals he can deliver.

It is a HUGE name to live up to... but I do believe, in the end Axl and the new Guns N' Roses will further cement the legacy of GN'R.

brillant post. But in my opinion, he shouldn't think to "surpass" what he did with the old band because it's just impossible.
Axl will never sell again 80 million albums within a few years. Don't forget there was a guy like Slash, who was as important and popular as Axl, and who did help to sell tons of records on his own. there is no new Slash in the new GN'R. Neither musically, nor in term of popularity and impact.  He just should think making a great album, have a great success, without necessary having the obsession to "surpass" what the old band did. at 25/30 you're on top, at 43 you're not anymore. It's almost physicall. That's life. Comebacks are never bigger than 1st time success.

Yeah, it's this obession with ultimate greatest album ever is going to ultimately be his downfall if he lets it.

DTJ, you hit the nail on the head. Remember when Nikki Sixx fired Vince Neil so he could make a Physical Graffiti? LMAO! He did a superb job at that, didn't he? You just cant make a perfect record. Period. Everyone's tastes are different. It can be a great album, a masterpiece, but it cant be perfect. And to the people who like to flame: Dont flame me for comparing GNR to Motley. I just used Motley as a reference.

It's true, perfect doesn't exist most of the time and he has to accept that, he has to cause it will never be perfect enough for him.  Oh and James, I won't flame you for comparing Motley to GNR :hihi:   I can speak for me but not everybody else ;)

Now I have to ask... Has Axl ever said he's trying to make the album perfect... (or trying to make a perfect album)?

Again, I'm not being sarcastic... I'm really looking for a reference to this.

Eva, interesting question!! I would have to say no. I think the perfection thing came about as people's excuses for this album taking so long. I could be wrong. He might have said that somewhere, but I doubt it.

It's not what he says but his actions the speak of perfectionism.   When he was with old GNR and now wanting to hold up release dates cause he didn't feel it was ready.   What producers have said about his reactions to them saying to him the tracks are great, what are you waiting for...that kind of thing leads me to believe anyway that he is a perfectionist.

The problem is he HASN"T SAID ANYTHING. Axl could easily clear the air about CD and everything else by doing a 1 hour interview. He knows this.

Axl did say something to the effect of trying to rebuild GnR from the ground up during his interview with Loader after the MTV show, but I have never seen a direct quote attributing this statement to him.

Actually, I haven't seen ANY direct quotes from Axl about ANYTHING in a LONG time.  ;D 

 :beer:

Rock on :beer:

Actually that is a pretty good analogy. The record Motley Crue did after firing Vince Neil was very good. No one in that band had played as well as they did on that album before it, and not since.

And it sold jack. Because it wasn't Motley Crue to a lot of people, and they had lost a key part of the puzzle. Regardless of what you think of Motley Crue I think you can apply that logic to a Guns N' Roses without Slash or Duff. CD will probably be amazing. That doesn't mean it is going to sell.

yeah... ?we've heard it used so often over the years over and over again... i was beginning to wonder if this was based on anything Axl has said.


i was asking that also in the other thread... ? Has Axl ever referred to himself as a perfectionist?

It is the kind of thing some people pride themselves on... and say about themselves... ? but, I can't recall Axl ever saying this about himself.

Yeah, I know other people have that opinion of him... ?but, I really wonder if its just a case of them not seeing whatever it is that he sees in what he was doing.

Trying to be true... trying to express a very specific emotion... to convey a certain mood... perhaps something that is very personal and wanting to make sure you express it faithfully... ? ?Is that perfectionism? ?

Gets me thinking....
Many have said "there's no such thing as perfect!" in reference to what they believe Axl is attempting to achieve.

this statement make sense.... ?afterall we are talking about artistic expression...
something that can not be quantified or evaluated by any sort of universal unit

but is there such a thing as expressing yourself with utter honesty... ?is this not pure truth?
And is not something that is pure - in essense perfect?

wasnt it brian may who called axl a "perfectionist" in that audio interview from a few years back?

Unfortunately, since the money invested in this project is largely not axl's, he does have a responsiblity to get this project out. Even a painter could not sustain a project on artistic principles if his materials were purchased on credit.

why do YOU think Geffen hasn't "done something" about it to date?

I believe they have cut him off financially. The Times reported, and this wasn't disputed, that axl had to move to a new studio for the 'finishing touches'.

me? about the album?

I'll answer anyways .. I think a combination of things , 1st off axl could have some "take my sweet ass time" clause in the contract. Or maybe they just have alot of confidence in the project. Or maybe yet they did indeed stop funding the recording as the NYTimes article said so it aint costing them any money now and any "improvements" axl makes to the album which would help make them more money is out of axl's own pocket.

Which brings us back to, can they force the album out?  Since they did stop the funding and Axl has to come up with the rest of the money on his own to finish by not funding, it's sorta like a hands off from Geffen.   So now is Merck responsible for GNR as his management to Geffen to get this out or could it be what Saul said "take his time" and as a result of that, we either see it this year or years from now or we don't ever see it.

if they did this then it was because the contract allowed them to

so it goes to reason that the contract also allows Axl to do whatever he's doing

my point being that whatever terms they agreed to in their contract - both parties are responsible to uphold them ?

If he's not been held responsible to some time frame - Geffen has thier reasons for allowing it.

Good questions would be: ?Is Axl determined to realize his vision regardless of the contract? ?And is Geffen also willing to forgo some of the terms to allow him to do so?




while i was posting my reply to KV, I read your post Saul. ?

I believe that you touched on quite a few viable possibilites for consideration.

If CD is past it's 'deadline' yet, Axl continues to work on it with his own money... ?I'd say there is a lot to respect about that.
And I do think that Geffen believes in what they've created... And I'm really glad that Axl himself believes in what he's doing enough to personally fund its completion.

I think that'd make the CD all that much sweeter an accomplishment for him.

Let's all keep in the back of our minds that Brian Wilson keep "smile" to himself for twenty years.

that was for completely different reasons.

what were the reasons?

besides , it's still relevant to the conversation. If Brian Wilson was able to keep smile from being released , even if he had a contract dealing with the recording and costs thereof then surely the comparison can be made to axl and his democracy project.  : ok:

There's no way in hell that Axl is putting up his own jack to finish this album. He might be a little crazy, but he's not stupid enough to bet on himself. That's why nothing's gone on for some time now, cause nothing's going on.

There were many.? The most important was that his band completely rejected the record because it was "too weird" and broke the formula.? Brian had suffered a nervous breakdown a few years before and the stress just got too heavy for him.? He quit trying, Smile was scrapped, and the Beach Boys as a group released a record called Smiley Smile in its place.? This all took place in a span of about 2 years.? Smile was about 75% finished when it was shelved and Brian didn't touch it again until he recently decided to finish it.? Really the only comparison to the current situation with GNR is that at the time of the recordings the Beach Boys were in litigation with Capital Records (and we all know Axl's history of lawsuits).

i think you should both fucking grow up.

Eva,
? ?I think you hit the nail on the head.? The contract obviously allows this to happen.? What I think people fail to realize is that GnR HAS released material relatively recently as far as the label is concerned.? Even if there are dates built into the contract, I doubt they have SPECIFIC albums slotted into those dates....what they most likely have is some sort of "You have to release ONE of your contracted albums in such and such a time frame".? If you look at the recent (relatively) release history, I think you can get a decent idea of what's going on.

11/30/99? GnR Live: 87 - 93 (which was, I think, the first release under the restructured/renegotiated deal, right?)

3/23/2004 GnR Greatest Hits (and remember, this was originally scheduled for 11/03...just about exactly 4 years after the release of Live).

I am one of those of the mind that GH took CD's "slot" in the contract release schedule, and ended up buying Axl more time to work on CD.? And, if memory serves, both the Live album and the GH album were part of the new deal.? I think a lot of the legal wrangling that went on between Axl and the label was if the label could FORCE Axl to comply to their contract? by CHOOSING to release one of the contracted albums within the time frame even without Axl's approval and involvement.? We all know how that turned out....

i must admit, that sounds pretty believable, but do you know such contracts take place? just curious, because this seems to make sense. either wat, there is no doubt we are in for something big here with not one, but two albums, taking CD's place to buy it more time, and i'm proud to have been standing by axl supporting this prosess all along. :smoking:

i hope listen Chinese Democracy before i die. :'( :'( :'(.maybe we'll have it for xmas...

very interesting points pilferk  :yes:

one thing that stuck out in my mind after the Sanctuary deal was announced - when i was reading about publishing rights I learned that the record company (Geffen) would have to pay the licensed publisher (Sanctuary) to produce and distribute the actual compact discs (mechanical license fee).
This could be something that's has had to go through negotiation also.