Here Today... Gone To Hell!

Any lawyers or law student's responses would be appreciated.

How long can Axl Rose wait? Can he hold off on "Chinese Democracy" indefinitely? Or can the suits at the label seize the master-tapes at the studio and release it? Could the record label argue that, as they have poured millions into the project and not received anything they have a mandate over ownership of the tapes?

As a fan, do you think this would be a good thing? Would you rather have (a) no "Chinese Democracy" ever or (b) a forced "Chinese Democracy" being released without Axl's approval.

I have to be honest here. I'd rather have b. I know it's incredibly selfish and not right to Axl, but I so want to hear the album. Hopefully it would never come to that.

For the 989898934738th time, Sanctuary is the management company.

Universal Music is the record company.


It was even mentioned in the press release from Sanctuary how Axl had recorded material for Universal Music.




/jarmo

Then can Universal force Axl to release the album?

Don't you think they would've done it already if they could?

I have no idea.

I know record companies sometimes do that, but since they decided to release Greatest Hits a year ago, I'm wondering if they can put out CD without Axl's approval.



/jarmo

I believe they can force an album's release if the band is under an actual contract to release that specific album. I also agree with you on rather having it forced into the stores rather than have another decade of delays.

Maybe the "Greatest Hits" bought Axl some time. I'm wondering if this can go on forever or if one day the suits might just seize the tapes, nitpick over the best tracks, hire someone to do the final mixing/mastering, and release it.

It seems like if there was the possibility that they could release the album without Axl's consent, he would release it himself just for the sake of being in control.

If axl has turned CD over the label then they can release it whenever. If not, i'm sure he is keeping the masters in his own possession til he's ready. With a court order though, the label can force anything it wants.

I was going to say, the label might not have the masters, but they can/would serve Axl with a court order to either turn over the masters, or a check for 13 million dollars if he wants to keep them for himself.  One way or another, the label will get a return on their investment.

I would venture to say the reason they have not forced him to relinquish the material yet is that they are holding out hope he will actually follow through on finishing the album and touring behind it and promote it. Were they to get into a situation where they unwillfully obtain the material from him, it will be a point of no return for the label. At that point you will have the record with no intent of the band or singer to promote it, not a good way to make money or maximize exposure. So I think they will continue to let him dawdle until they decide he has no intention of actually releasing it, or they just want to the material and are going to release it with or without his consent. 

The Record Company could probably do whatever the fuck they want to do, as they have all the money in the world.

They don't have as much money as Benny Hinn or Bill Gates but they definitely have tons more money than Axl could ever hope to have.

I think they are letting Axl take his sweet ass time and do what he wants.

Which is to release the album(s) on his terms and only when he feels it's the right time. :confused:

It all depends on the contract signed between both parts and eventually, the judge's interpretation on the issue.

as all or at least the most of the people on this forum, I`d prefer to see axl release it, but if that`s not the case i prefer a forced CD to no CD.

But i think there`s no way for a forced CD except when Axl was running out of cash, but I don?t think that we`ll see that ever happen. If  Universal`d want to release CD without Axl wanting this, it`s total out of question imo. Axl would fight with his life against that.

I think the general assumpion is that there is conflict between Axl and his label and that the label are putting pressure on him to finish CD. If this was the case Axl/GN'R would've been dropped a long time ago or Axl would've upped sticks.

I'm sure the label are happy to let Axl do his thing because they know a record is on the way and it's not like its not going to be a sucess when it does surface. 

How can you release or force to release a non-finished album? ???

My assumptions is that they would complete it themselves.

It seems like the only thing we are waiting for is mixing and mastering. So the label would sieze the tapes then mix and master them on their own terms and rush it out for sale. It's probably a good idea for them to do that soon if they have the legal ground to do so. Think about it, the press created from the siezure would probably create more album sales in the first month or so than if they just finish and release it.

 

no way

Kinda like the course of GH. If that was the case, the label wouldn't even need to force the musician to release anything.
BTW "to record dozens of new songs for Universal" doesn't necessary mean "to leave the recording in  Universal's hands", does it?

Well doesnt Axl own all the rights to GnR? so I dont imagine they could release anything without him saying so.

Shit, as much as I hate that he's taking so long I think thats a great deal he cut for himself. He basically pimped the industry (forgive me for using hip hop dialect), they release it when he says so.
Way to go Axl  :peace:

No.



They would have to have CD in the first place, and if they did they'd have done it already. I think Axl is the only one with any access to whatever new material he's making, and until it goes on record or someone steals it, copyright belongs to him alone.

Short of breaking into his house and stealing blue prints, the record co can't do anything.

I am going to assume you aren't from America because this is 100% wrong and uninformed, and not how the American justice system works. Axl is making the music, but the Label OWNS the music. Hence they CAN legally force him to hand it over. Not exactly rocket science to think that you can get a court order to get someone to give you back something you own. If they don't want to willfully give it back they either go to jail, or pay you for it. Which is Axl's other option. So no, he does not own the music.


Some of you are clueless with your "no, they can't force Axl", "Axl owns GNR...They can't do that" arguments.

Here is the undisputable facts. The label gives Axl 13 million dollars to make music. In return for their 13 million dollars, they ask him to give them music. If Axl chooses not to give them a finished product, they can goto court and subpeona all of the material he has worked on for the past 7-10 years. At that point he has no choice but to turn over everything he has worked on.......or he goes to jail. If he chooses to hand the material over rather than goto jail? then the label can either force him to put it out, or Sue him to kingdom come for breach of contract as he contractually owes them an album he is refusing to release.

His other option would be to buy out the material from the label which would basically constitute giving the label the 13 million plus some financial damages. So basically he would cut them a check for 20 million dollars and he could keep his album and do whatever he wanted with it.


The reason none of these things have been done yet is not because they can't but because they are holding out hope that he will willingly put it out and promote it at some point. Him being behind it makes it the most profitable for all parties involved. If they get to a point they realize he is jerking them around and has no real intention of releasing it, then they will pursue litigation.

Axl one way or the other is either going to release the album, or give the label 20 million dollars? to avoid doing so. Him not releasing it with no penalty is not an option as he is contractually obligated to either give them music or pay them back. No lawyer in the world will be able to cut him a deal that lets him off the hook with no significant financial repercussion or keeps him from having to hand over any complete or non-complete music recorded on company dollars.

In summary for everyone who obviously doesn't understand: Axl owning GNR doesn't mean jack diddly squat in the eyes of a court. He has a contract to provide the label with music which the label pays him for, if he doesn't give them music.........he goes to court. At which point he will have be legally forced to hand over music that the label owns and payed for.....or a check for somewhere between 13-20 million dollars. His choice, but either way he pays up.

The question isn't necessarily "can" Universal force Axl to release the album, it's what would it take for them to decide to do that. I honestly have no reasonable clue as to why the record company hasn't pushed this to the extreme. They could be behind the curtains, so to speak, but no one knows. I'm all for the idea that "hey, Axl's a genius, give him the time he needs and he'll deliver", but from a financial and business perspective, it's an enigma. As it is, this album has cost the record company close to $15 million dollars. Even if the album were to come out and sell millions upon millions of copies, it still wouldn't make back what they put into it and they know this. Not to say that they wouldn't be ecstatic with a super successful album, but record companies are in it to make money, not just artistic success. It starts to make a little more sense if you buy into the "3 album theory", which I do, but you just asked about "an" album...  : ok:

Can you imagine how much music must be in the vault? All that stuff recorded from 1994(?) to 2005. With Hendrix, who only released three albums in his life-time, and who only recorded for about four years, there have been a dozen posthumous releases. Some day all I really hope that all of Axl's demos and unreleased songs see the light of day. Maybe in a few years, after Chinese Democracy, there will be a huge boxset with 10 discs and hundreds of songs, with liner notes by Mr. Rose himself. That would be friggin' great.

Universal can't do that. Axl will sue their ass to hell and in the ensuing court shit, the album might be postponed furthur...

Maybe read Naupis post.  What the hell is Axl going to "sue their ass to hell" for?  They have paid for him to record his "masterpiece" and they have the rights to that music and will be releasing it. 

Actually... you're right.  I wouldn't even be suprised if Axl COULD "sue their ass to hell".  Shit, in America, people even sue fast food companies for making them fat.

Well I don't think he's just going to sit around while they master the cd themselves and release it. He sued Geffen for releasing the Greatest Hits cd didn't he? Come on, it's Axl... :hihi:

Unless he pays them for the material(15-20 million dollars) he won't have a choice. Universal......NOT Axl, own that material. All they would need is a court order. He could sue them and they would swat him away like a bug the way they did with greatest hits. You really need to re-read my post to see how the American legal system works.


It would be like you paying me as a contractor 300,000 dollars to build you a new house. We would sign a contract, and I would promise to build you a house. If I were to just keep the money and not build the house. You would sue me. I would then either be forced to give you back your money, or build you that house. There would be nothing I could countersue you for. We had a contract. You paid me, I didn't deliver. I would be legally lible.

It is the same damn thing with Universal and Axl. They paid him, if he doesn't give them money or music they can take him to the cleaners. Just being Axl and having a history of suing people(and not always successfully, don't quite no where the Axl as a courtroom God legend came from) doesn't obsolve him from having to fulfill his contractual obligations or buy out the music.

Naupis, there you go, assuming you know how much the label has paid for the recording sessions. You have no idea how much of that is Axl's money-advances-how much was written off by the reorganization of Geffen/Interscope/Universal etc. Yes, he most likely would have to pay them for the material but you are pulling 15-20 million out of your ass! Wilco was dumped by their record label and was given their album (Yankee Hotel Foxtrot) for free. The record company simply cut their losses. Now, granted it was only 200,000 dollars or so but in relative terms to Wilco and their record label profits off of Wilco, it is probably relatively similar to 13,000,000 dollars to Axl/Guns & Roses and Geffen's profits from them. In other words, Geffen has made a ridiculously large amount of money off Gnr. 13,000,000 (IF that is the number) is a drop in the bucket. They could just tell Axl to buzz off and drop him if they wanted too. It wouldn't be smart but they could. Quite frankly, I do believe that it is a possibility that Axl could buy the music and move to Sanctuary, but putting a price on it is quite hard without knowing all the details of the actual costs, contracts, and quality of material.? :peace:

Is this the Universal or
Is this the HMV or
Is this the Geffen?
I thought it was Sanctuary
Or just one another company
Another council tenancy
That's what I see about regarding the publishing deal and I say ditto to your post.

Numbers fucking confuse me! For the time being I'd refer to the tentative number of 11 million as more of relevant as it is the latest from The Times (a damn "quality" paper), but Fuck nose about the authenticity of any of these numbers.

In any case, those alleged numbers would sell the album.
Say there were two products, one was the outcome of years of study and 11 million production costs while the other was made in a month with 11 hundred dollars and these showed in their quality gap but yet they were of a price. which one a normal consumer with the IQ higher than 15 lower than 150 would buy? Consumer friendly one, perhaps.

Talking of mass sales, the big numbers talk. That's how I understand the whole mistery of those fucking numbers, well, for the time being.

yes but if you by contract need all the time that you want and you cant be forced to release your own material (your house)until you are happy with it then you are by law forced to build the house but you still can take 30 years to build it , and thats why i think Axl can take all the time he wants because he probably has a contract for 1 or 2 or 3 more albums but with out specific dead line time .

yes but if you by contract need all the time that you want and you cant be forced to release your own material (your house)until you are happy with it then you are by law forced to build the house but you still can take 30 years to build it , and thats why i think Axl can take all the time he wants because he probably has a contract for 1 or 2 or 3 more albums but with out specific dead line time .

I'm sorry but geffen lawyers would have to be completly drunk to accept that kind of deal, nobody in any business does that specially when y're talking about millions of dollars.

Axl and universal, geffen or whatever probably have reached agrement on the delays, and it's possible that they are one of the reasons for this taking that long.  They may not like the final product or consider it's not the best timing or prefer to promote and keep high investment's in other projects with faster income and less investment risk . It's more likely that there is a clause for record company aproval then the other way around, altough at the time the main agrrement text, Axl would have a lot of power in the company and definitly made a good deal.

Beasides do you remember Axl's complanes about the record company when he did the interview for WRIF? about the litle amount of suport he get and how much work he had to do for himself? So if the record company didn't invest in time and people to help him why give him so much money? Speacilly when Sanctuary's gone get the most of the long term profit.

Maybe  Axl is a mager share holder in the company  ;D and he was misleading us.

What Naupis said is in most correct, not only in america but in all  country's with modern economy. But If the record company would go to court they would be loking for money and not the record what would they do with it if nobody would tour or promote. The case in court could take years and the financial loss would amount for both parties, if it come to that they would prefer to make an off court setlement.

By the way if they really put in 15 million (and i don't belive that, considering that it's not finished, the promotion cost's, distribution etc,  when it will, how many records would they have to sell to reach even?) Axl would have to pay something like 60 million or so, it depends on the ratio of inflation American courts use, plus court costs and finantial damage.

Fev