Here Today... Gone To Hell!

I mean music magazine. I`m for Rolling Stone. I like their reviews. Don`t tell me you will not be care...

From this site, and this message board's opinion. I couldn't give two shits less about what some magazine thinks, especially Rolling Stone, which is something I've burnt in effigy before.

ill read any review that just judges and gives its opinion on the music for what it is and where it stands in todays world and how it compares to the old lineup in terms of the actual music.

If it has to do with mentioning all the delays, axls braids, jerseys, robin's freakiness etc,? this that and the other garbage I dont want it.

Also the interview has to pass certain posters "tests and checklists" for it to be taken seriously and have any credibility. So background checks are required too!

I'm gonna by the cd, listen to it, make up my own opinion and laugh at reviews i don't agree with, BUT read em all!  :hihi:

The last review Id ever read is Rolling Stone. That mag is the biggest shit mag ever.

The first review i will read will be Time magazine. Although not a music magazine, they seem to give unbiased reviews on movies,music,books,etc. Entertainment Weekly is also a great magazine. I believe they gave 'Illusions' an A.

That is not really relevant though in terms of whats in vogue today. Every reviewer will judge it against old guns stuff because it has to grade out better to have justified breaking up the old band and keeping the name. He invited in that comparrison in keeping the name and releasing an album under the GNR name and not just making his own band and calling it something else. In that case no one would give 2 hoots what he called that album and wouldn't judge him solely against his past.

When Van Halen has bounced singers around their albums have always been put up against the diamond dave stuff for the most part as most people argue that was their best material. For people to ever accept Sammy or gray cherone, they had to put out a better album than they ever did with Diamond dave to justify having continued on with the name. They don't judge the album against other contemporary releases, because in that case it is relevant.

Why would anyone ever want to accept a band that couldn't release an album that was as good as the guys in that same band before they were all either forced out or fired? CD can be as good or better than any contemporary cd out there in today's market place, but if it isn't viewed as being as good as Appetite or the Illusions by all the critics is will be universally panned by them and dubbed a failure, as it should be. The reasoning is that if you have one set of guys calling themselves GNR produce something considered gold, and another group produce something that only equated to silver, even though silver might be better than anything out there, why would you consider that silver quality album a success when you had a factory that made gold but chose to tear it down?

It just down't make sense to do. Which is why he will, and should be judged against Appetite and the Illusions, as it has been established there are 5 guys in this world who at one point called themselves GNR and were able to make that gold. Why do you think the general public or music critics would want to embrace a band that also calls themselves GNR, yet only managed to produce silver? They wouldn't, as that gold is certainly more valuable than the silver, regardless of what the rest of the market sounds like.

Again, it is all hypothetical as no one knows what the album will sound like. But I can say for damn certain the first thing every critic will do is decide it is either better than Appetite and the Illusions or worse......and if its worse(regardless of what else is going on in the music market), it will be open season on Axl...in which case he will deserve it as by keeping the name he invited that criticism.

It is just irrational to think that any journalist in their right mind (given the big issue hanging in the balance as to whether he should have kept the name or not) will not judge the album against old Guns to see if he was justified in keeping the name or not, and if it is deemed not as good, not slag him bad for it given he has proved that he was capable of making a better album given what he had showed in the past, regardless of what music in the year 2005 sounds like.

Even if the music is better than most other music in 2005, what does it really matter if he doesn't put out the best album ever released under his own band name? If you can't see why he will be ripped for that then you are being awful naive, regardless of how you try and justify it.


The equivalent would be like Paul McCartney today deciding he was going to go hire 3 new guys, call themselves the Beattles, and release an album. Aside from the fact no one would ever accept it, if he didn't release an album better than Sgt. Peppers people would turn their backs on him completely as the common view would be that you had 4 guys who created possibly the greatest album ever, yet you soil their name and legacy by releasing an album under that brand name that is inferior to their best work. People would tear him a new one under that scenario, and his music career would essentially be over.

As with my hypothetical situation with McCartney, Axl will run into this same problem. As deservedly so. When he decided to keep the name, it became open season. If he didn't keep the name, he has none of these problems. You can't always have you cake and eat it to. If you want to call yourself GNR, you better release the best GNR album ever, or accept your going to be flamed and ridiculed for not doing so.

when you listen to this album your heart will tell you it is not the GUNS N' ROSES that you knew and loved from the old days but eventually you will come to love it and understand why the band could no longer stick together

I won't read any, I can figure out whether or not music is good without having to waste my money to read what someone else thinks? ?: ok:

 :smoking: Izzy? :smoking:

Well said!  :-*

That's fine and dandy, but unfortunately there are alot of people who read those reviews, and we need them to be good to get people on the fence to buy the album.

As has been stated, lack of commercial success means no more GNR records most likely. If CD does not do well that's it, we won't see another album. So all of you can talk about how the reviews don't mean anything, but this project has to be successful comericially, not artistically, for us to see another album. You can take that to the bank.

what part of how it compares to the old lineup in terms of the actual music.

did you not understand ???

not gonna drag this thread through the mud again...

I disagree but? : ok:

Wrong. The company has given GNr a lot of money to produce music. Supposedly they have 3 albums worth of material. Lets say Cd "fails commercially" the company and the band will still atleast put out another album. The company wants to recoup their investment. The only way to do that is to sell records or Axl give them the money instead of music.

Its safe to say that no matter what, we will be getting 2 new gnr albums...you can take that to the bank...

and as long as they are artistically great ill be one happy camper...ill let you handle the numbers

Axl has enough money to make more albums whether or not CD is a succsess and even if CD is a sucsess Gn'R might be out of ideas for songs, never mind albums, you make a good point though ?: ok:

 :smoking: Izzy ?:smoking:

You got that right. If CD isnt huge and sell at least 10 or 20 million you will never hear from Axl again.

whats the magic number for album sales that all you experts will deem a commercial success? im just curious

More than one? : ok:

 :smoking: Izzy? :smoking:

I'll read 'em all.

 None of which will effect my opinion but I'll read them nonetheless.

I wouldn't be surprised in the least if some magazines already have their reviews of Chinese Democracy ready and waiting for the day it comes out.

And I'm sure they're all just itching to tear it to shreads no matter what.

I believe the magic number for album sales is 10 million. I believe it will sell more than that. But if it sells less than GNR Lies(which I believe was 6 million), GNR is officially DEAD.

Look at total album sales for the rock genre. Does anyone even come close to that number?{im not sure}.? Vr? have sold what about a million to 1.5 albums thus far? You cant compare old gnr album sales to cd. We are in a completely different music world.

Very tough question.

Business wise, I'd say one album for every corresponding dollar put into production over a a selling period of 1 year. ?Although, if the rumored number of millions (12?, 13?) is correct, that's beyond unrealistic.

In the publics opinion, who knows? ?Some sort of time period has to be attached to any "commercial success" conversation...

So, going by your estimations above, you're saying Chinese Democracy will basically have to sell like Appetite for Destruction for it to be "commercially successful?"

For the record, that's pretty much how I've always thought it would have to be.

Under the best of circumstances Axl is temperamental. If his album doesn't do well, and is universally panned by critics and the public he is going to hang them up. The record company can release as many albums as they want of GNR material, that will be it for Axl. He has proven he can live without being in the spotlight, and would have no problem walking away.

There is no way if this album doesn't do well that he is going to suck it up, admit maybe his vision was wrong, and start again. If he isn't accepted out of the gate that's it. You are entitled to believe otherwise, but the guy is fragile. Fear of failure IMO has kept this project from getting started so far, so what makes you believe that if he releases an album he truly believes is the best thing he has ever created and it isn't recieved well and critics throw him under a bus makes you think he is going to dust himself off and try again? I just don't see it happening.

This all leads me to this whole thing about recording 10 billion albums before you release 1. If hypothetically that 1 album doesn't go over well, there is a good chance you have to go back and start from scratch. That will have made the entire last 6 years of waiting and recording worthless, as he would have to start over. This I truly believe will be the greatest miscalculation of the project. It is like putting the cart before the horse.

I look at the VR guys and think GNR is in a very similar situation. They were a new act, had to learn to play together and stuff, release an album and see how it goes. For their next album I totally believe it will be much better than CB as you hear from every member to a man the different perspective and closeness you get from being on the road together as a band for over a year and playing together. You can't replicate that growth as a band in a studio. Had they recorded the follow-up to CB before they released the first album, it most likely would sound just like CB and not show the truth growth of the band as a band.

GNR will sadly be devoid of that and I think it creatively is going to end up cheating the process. Had they just worried about getting one done and got it out, toured a bit and recorded again, I have no doubt that album would sound a whole lot different than whatever follow up we will get if we actually ever get one. Being on the road makes a band grow together both personally and musically, which is precisely the reason a debut band has never ever ever recorded their follow up album before they ever released their debut. We laugh about how things have never really been done like this, but for something like recording all follow ups before the public even hears your debut offering, there is a reason for it. If he really didn't want to leave the road after releasing his album that bad (which is always the excuse bantied about by those who defend the 3 album stuff) then he could write while on the road and record demo's at soundchecks and stuff like VR is. That way when you get in the studio you don't have to take 2 years to make an album, you do stuff bit by bit as the inspiration comes.

So that was a bit off the subject, but no way if the album fails will he scrap his project and start over. He will take it personally that it didn't do well, and will just hang it up musically as I don't see him trying to write another album that he again wouldn't even be sure if it would be successful.



Commercial success to me is minimum 4-5 million albums in the states, 10 million world wide. For a project that has as much time and energy put into it as this does, anything short of that is a failure given people like evanescense were able to sell over 3 million albums on what I'm sure was a couple hundred thousand dollar budget, then GNR should be selling at least 4-5 mil given the anticipation and resources that went into this project. There is just no excuse for it to not do that well other than people just not liking it. GNR as a band name has sold like 30 some-odd million albums in the states as a brand, getting 4-5 million in sales would mean getting even only 20% of those who own at least 1 gnr album to buy CD. If they can't do that they are finished in terms of their place in today's rock world.

CD will never do as well as Appetite or any old records because nowadays there are MP3s and re-writable cds and I generaly don't think people buy records cds that much nowadays? :-\

 :smoking: Izzy? :smoking:

More from a label/business standpoint. yes.

From a public perspective, I think it has to open and stay at #1 for multiple weeks, stay in the top quarter of the charts for at least a year, produce multiple chart topping Billboard Mainstream Rock singles and at least 2 crossover singles that hit the top 10 on the Billboard Hot 100.

However many albums sold the above scenario generates over a period of a year would give my answer for a perceived "commercial success".

Not the bad reviews. I'm excluding the gn'r haters. Many reviews seem to stick to the bad parts of an album. Is that bad? Sometimes it's like they remind you the bad spots of a work. (bad spots that you may never had think about them). I don't want reminders. :-X

So, we don't read any reviews? I believe not(in the beggining). First, we have to listen to the album (not only once) and then go to check other people's opinions.
Reviews are for the dubious. I don't believe that there's at least one person here in this forum that will wait another person's opinion about C.D. to decide if he's going to buy it.

I think the opposite. Far from fragile. Fragile would be not following what you dont think is right. Hes doing what he wants and how he wants. Far from fragile in my book.

Thats what you fail to realize with GNR. You think as soon as they were a band they began making material for an album. What yoiu dont know or fail to reconize are the zillion times they just jammed together in the studio. Especially early on with this band.
You think the whole delay thing is due to making perfect material. Thats is partly the reason but you have to realize before that Axl wanted to make sure it was the right band chemistry wise.
So while Vr have decided to grow in the spotlight GNr have grown in the wee hours of the night when nobody has been watching or paying any attention. Its the same thing.
The 2002 tour was for the band to get out of the studio and gel in a live fashion.

I highly doubt their will be any creative problems in regards to guns music. In fact it might be too creative for your likings...

but Axl has a different game plan than VR. Your comparing band with 2 different goals and responsibilities.

Its quite obivious if you ask me. Axl took on the name so now he has to live up to certain expectations. Instead of doing it the convential way he is taking his sweet ass time making sure no stone is left unturned. WHy? Because he knows this is it. This will define his career. Hes not into the whole touring and being in the spotlight. Hes doing things on his terms so he doesnt have to meet anyones demands other than himself.

agreed

I don't know if fragile is the right term, but he has some of the biggest rabbit ears of any artist on the planet.  The critics sting him big time, he remembers names and holds grudges.  Critical acclaim and a being perceived relevent is of major concern to him.

that doesnt mean hes fragile

Fragility in his resolve to pursue his creativit vision?  Absolutely not.

Fragility in his oversensitivity, a desire for critical and public acceptance and current relevence?

Positively so.

napuis i agree with you 100 percent i think if the album fails you will never here from w axl rose again but i dont think failing is based on a number of sales.  you have to remeber what we are dealing with axl rose is not as care free and fuck what everyone says as some might think.  him not responding to old members ripping him shows stregnth and maturity and also supports that he does not give a fuck, but a man who tours with a psyciatrist is obviously not very stable.also that whole howard stern story about axl getting very upset about the reviews makes me think that one stupid asshole on the radio with a bad review could make him cancel a tour and go into hiding for another 3 years and counting means that  public opinions do bother him very much. Which leads me to think even if the album sells well, 3 million U.S of my opinion of sucessful in 2005, that the bad reviews alone will probablly make him cancel any tour before it even begins.  Anyone who visits this site reguarly knows the media is against axl and reviews will be mostly all negative, most likely insulting and overly negative which will scare plenty of possible purchasers from buying cd.  if the music is great enough and the radio gives it a chance it will shut everyone up.  i would not count on this to be anything more then just a great album.  things have changed alot since illusion days kids are different now nobody is going to embrace a 40 something year old singer with a bad public reputation.  the real music fans and axl fans will see the shows buy the album and that should be enough.  if chinese democracy sells 5 million albums in the u.s axl should be very happy go back into the studio record more shit with the band and release more music right away, and if he wants to release some of that other material he has he should do that after the newly recorded followup to cd.  You would also be surprised what a sucessful gnr album and a sucessful 1 or 2 velvet revolver albums could do in helping a possible reunion.  if axl is looking to take over the music world again and thats what he expects i think he should save his energy b/c its not happening in this day in age. i WOULD LOVE TO SEE IT MORE THEN ANYONE.     

I don't like rollingstone!!!
Some rock or heavy magazine and some newspapers(like nypost,la times)

Once I've heard the album and formed my own opinion, I'll read all the reviews, just because I feed on paper. But I'll probably laugh at most of them  ;D

There is no way in hell I will read any review before I listen to the record. I want a completely clean head. I dont want to know what songs are the epics, what song this is, what the single is..etc. Once any prejudgments enter your mind you will not listen to it the same way.

On behalf of music sales for Chinese Democracy, I think everyone and their mother will pick it up just because of the mystery behind it, it is pretty much the most labored hard rock record ever. Millions of dollars, countless studio hours, revivsions, lineup changes, aborted themes and styles, it will sell alone on that factor.

I think if GNR ever tour again they will stick to overseas markets more often. South America, Europe, Japan, Austrailia. In the United States everything has a label and everything is prejudged, you have 2billion critics calling you this and that and it makes the vibe crappy. While I am an American, I think our audiences suck, we are hard to please and we keep asking for more. When I listen to a bootleg of Osaka compared to like Chicago, the Osaka crowd seems so much cooler, chanting, having fun, just there to have a good time. Where as at home we sit with our arms crossed going impress me, fuck that shite.

Chinese Democracy: USA 5million Worldwide: 10million

My own...

after listening the damn thing Perhaps I'll read them to judge each critics credibility.
Some of them are already out of the question tho.

That Axl being fragile strains credulity. I thought BH might be quite fragile but Axl?
everybody creates their god in their own image. ::)

First of all, I don't think Axl gives two shits if Geffen makes money. If they made a bad business deal, it doesn't affect him because by most accounts he will be finished with Geffen after Chinese anyway. I can't see him staying on. I think he will group everything-publishing, record company etc with Sanctuary. Also, Geffen as a company folded in the late 90's- I believe-then came back in to existence within the last few years (??-anyone know specifics?). Financially, we do not know how much of the invested money with Axl has been written off. In other words, of the 13 million, maybe 6-7 has already been written off. THESE FIGURES ARE ALL BEST GUESSES ANYWAY. NOBODY ON THESE BOARDS KNOWS WHAT THE ACTUAL COSTS ARE AND WHO HAS PAID THEM-Axl's own money, advances, Geffen money, etc. The most important thing with Chinese is AXL making money. If he makes money, we will get another record. Simple as that.

I'll try to read the first reviews and then I'll get sick.
But I'm looking foward to read the reviews from some users here like jarmo, ppbebe, Gypsy, norway and nesquick. I guess that CD review thread will be the bigger one here.  : ok:

I'm looking forward to seeing GN'R's guitarists featured in Guitar World magazine  : ok:

That would be REALLY great! It's a shame that only Brain was interviewd for a players magazine.

When the disc comes out, I'll post my review and it will all be settled.

I don't read reviews at all..I'll go to Tower Records, listen to some tracks on the headphones, and if I like it I'll buy it...End of Story...

I could agree with this.

Me too. 

I've been a fan of Finck's for a long time and am looking forward to hearing from him.

I've got no use for Fortus as a performer but I'd still enjoy reading what he has to say in regards
to being in GNR... 

Total Guitar and Kerrang! even tho kerrang r crap journalists, they have their own tv channel and their own radio which i hav 2 admit does giv quite a bit of airplay 2 guns.

Fuck the magazines dude, I mean no offense to any journalists who happen to be member of this board but fuck man it seems to me that all these pricks are wannabe musicians who sucked so now there gonna exact vengance upon artists they deem unworthy. Its all subjective crap, and I cant really take what they have to say (which is basically the opinions of bitter failed musicians) to heart. But I will say this I dont think that I will take any stock into anyones opinion when it comes to Chinese Democracy because its been such a long time that I know Im gonna love it.

I mean if Axls the perfectionist they say he is then it cant be anything less than that. Or maybe Im js being optimistic.  :peace:

I'm not gonna pay any attention to the reviews untill i hear the whole cd. I'd like to be able to match my opinion up to theirs after hearing it. After all I think that a large amount of the press will be fairly negative so it won't do me any good to use their opinions as a reference point when pressing play for the first time.

This tends to be my over all view of all reviews (books, movies, cd's, etc...) Where do they find the people that write these reviews? 90% of the time they have a completely different outlook on the product than I do, and what makes them qualified to write the review anyway?? Are they an expert? do they have in field experience? Christ... Vanilla Ice has music industry experience.... does that make him qualified to rate a CD for ME?

The people who write these reviews are the same people who are asked to be part of top 100 of all time lists. Every year the list changes. Think about it, in just the last few years we have seen things like Jack White (White Stripes) near the top of the 100 best guitar players of all time, but he'll mysteriously drop over 95 places when noone remembers him 2 years from now...... Also there was a top 50 Metal bands of ALL TIME and Linkin Park was like #3..... who is behind these votes... the same people that review these albums..... I wont even go back ten years or so to the talk about 311 being one of the best bands ever.... I can already hear the early teenage members of this board looking for people to tell them who 311 are.

As for the estimates on Sales Figures. Keep in mind that the indusrty is so saturated with artists and media outlets that albums dont sell like they used to. To even hold Lies up as a benchmark is a bad idea. I saw people throwing up figures like 5 million US and 10 Million world wide....... after how many years??

Good, insightful replies, I must say ... albeit sometimes off topic.