Here Today... Gone To Hell!

My answer is no. I consider "chinese democracy' to basically be an Axl solo project, and not a true follow up album to Illusions. I consider it one of the tragedies of rock that the 'Illusions' masterpiece was never given a follow up album by the band. To me it is the biggest stain on the bands legacy. I'm sure someone will Dead Horse my comments, but i'm curious as to how you guys(and girls) feel about the band doing illusions and then basically not giving a shit about anything and do you consider CD a follow up, or a whole new era of GNR?

i dont think its a follow up. I think its like a re debut...a come back album except just axl and some guys.

Its the biggest comeback of the decade if it happens

We'll know the answer to that question when we hear the album

I hope it will be an evolution form the Illusions, just like the Illusions were an evolution from Appetite

I dont think so. Because this is a different band which means different personalities different artistic talents, and Axl said this band was going to be moving in a different direction. So Im excited to see what comes out of it, I think Chinese Democracy is going to be the New Guns version of Appetite for Destruction maybe not quite as badass or quite as living on the edge but like AFD in the way that it introduces the band to the world and says

Here we are motherfucker DEAL WITH US BECAUSE WE'RE HERE TO STAY! ?:peace:

Interesting question. I actually think Axl had mostly "taken control" of GN'R before UYI came out. Because of that, I do feel like CD is the follow-up to UYI. IMHO, AFD is a relic from a band that no longer exists- while UYI, CD and whatever follows is really all part of the contiuing "Axl Rose Saga".

Er, no. For starters, GN'R is a new band, also the material used on the UYI albums was a mix of cover songs, songs that didn't make it onto AFD and possibly a few songs written just for UYI  ;)

Yes and no.

I see CD as a new begining for Guns N' Roses.


 :peace:

From what we've heard from Tommy, it would seem that it is a continuation of UYI in so much as the epics Id say...

Axl has expressed that he felt rushed and pressured to finish those albums (although he stated the contrary upon release) so I'm sure he feels he has some unfinished business

but personally, the UYI albums were the last gasp for GN'R as far as im concerned and Chin Dem is a whole seperate animal..

Spirit wise, Yes....that sweet convo with Wooody made me think so.

Musically, No

I agree with aspects of what MaoAxl and Jimmythegent have said.

i see it as a new beggining for axl. If it was for GNR then we would have the original line up. I think if the name of the album was  " Axl rose- Chinese democracy" then after hearing those live tracks people wouldnt give much about it.

I don't know...Illusions came out so long ago...
I agree with the Axl solo project with some guys comment...
If Tommy is being real and not just pushing some PR smoke up our butts (not that there's anything wrong with that, how you take it, you have to decide for yourself), then this is a collaborative effort between Axl and other musicians (different from the original collaborators who participated in AFD or Illusions)

Again, whatever you may think, it's not an Axl solo project. If Axl saw this as his solo project he should have changed the band name to Axl Rose band or something and he would have but he hasn't.
So I think Dead_N_Bloated is right.


Given that the band name didn't sell 02 tickets enough in US, it seems people didn't give 2 shits whether it was called GN'R or Axl Rose Band. Then after hearing those live tracks people started to give much about it???

yeah, re debute is the right word! A new band...

I guess anything Axl releases under the name guns n roses will be compared with previous releases, so I don't know if it will be a follow up or not, but it'll certainly draw comparisons with his previous work, for the good or bad (hope not :beer:)

Kinda yes. I view it as the next chapter in axl's songwriting/lyrics/vocals .. but as for the music element , not at all. I look at the music portion of this album as almost akin to the debut of a new band. Only with a world famous singer heading up the vocals.

In a way yes... just because it would be the first release of new orginal material since UYI... But in reality no cause GNR is a whole new animal now and because its been so long it almost like a new debut album

Interesting Question  : ok:

Its been sooooo long that personally I don't consider it to be a follow up. I didn't really consider the Illusions to be a follow up to AFD - at the time GNR to me was Axl, Izzy, Slash Duff and Steven, and the moment I saw Matt's blonde permed hair it just didn't feel right as a follow up album.

I'm really excited about the new line up. I think the sound will be a world apart from UYI 1 & 2 (the sound clips from Boston sounded that way), and whilst the music will contain elements of the Illusions, I think the 'super creative' songs (or whatever Tommy called it) will surprise a lot of GNR fans who maybe expect to hear UYI3 or AFD2.

I just hope that we don't get a St Anger!

 

exactly.. its in a sense the redebut because of all the new musicans.. but its continuing the legacy left by the illusions  :yes:

I'd consider CD a debut album by a new band.

It's not a follow-up or a debut...it's something completely unique and bizarre...I am so f'in pumped up for this album!!!  I've got faith in Axl.

I say it is more GNR2K a reload, fresh start - good question

In the same vein then , would you consider Contraband a follow up to UYI's?!  ???

yeah, good point? :P

edit\ meanin the same kind of question? : ok:

Thanks , I thought so.  :P  I mean with CD you have but the singer and keyboard player moving forward and with Contraband you have the guitar player , bass player and drummer.  :-\

I have a feeling this will be the most personal and deepest album content wise of any of the GnR albums.  AFD was pure sex, drugs and rock n roll.  The Illusions were all over the map with their content, but were much deeper lyrically than AFD was with songs like November Rain, Coma, Breakdown, Locomotive and Estranged giving some deep insight into the mind of Axl.  I believe that Chinese Democracy will be the most provacative GnR album from a lyrical standpoint, with some great epics.  My one concern is that there probably won't be a lot of songs that are purely entertaining and outright fun to listen to like the ones found on AFD.  I get the feeling that Chinese Democracy will be a real rainy day album if you know what I mean. 

Im hopeing we get some real insights into what exactly has been going on with Axl all these years

It's well reported that he discovered/uncovered alot of painful experiences through his therapy and the like, I think we'll see alot of these topics touched on in his lyrics

I am also hoping that we hear some more generic or world views from Axl. The world is a very different place to that world that influenced and informed his earlier work so i'm particularly interested to see where Axls head is at on a social level

Absolutely.  The last time I checked...... even though Shaq, Karl Malone, Gary Payton and Phil Jackson left the Lakers this summer, they still call them the Lakers this year.  I know basketball is not the same as the music industry but this is Gn'R's next album of original music and its gonna rock all the same.

fuck no.  Axl has always been the main brain behind gnr.   Its his band.   Without Axl it can't be guns.  so it aint a follow up to shit. its a debut album.

its more like a follow up to Shagrala di da by STP if anything  :yes:    :rofl:

ok its a debut

 ???

i believe it will rock also ?

On a slightly different note, I see CD being a one and done type deal. I dont think we will ever see another GNR album again after this one.

This is closure for Axl.

I do not consider it a follow up to the illusions because gnr is no longer around, now it's just axl using the name with a bunch of hired players..  A follow up to the illusions could only be done with gnr.. Besides no one has heard the album so how can it be considered for anything?


Teams are suppose to change, bands aren't.. zSports in comparison is  terrible .. So me and my friends could get into gnr and it would be gnr :hihi:

It's just a business now, it's not a group.. Bands have material, they have albums, this band has nothing., They couldn't even tour for more then three weeks without causing riots..

For me gnr is dead, this is the axl rose band and his hired helpers. Now that won't take anything away from the music he makes, but it just won't be gnr for me..

Vince neil doesn't go on tour and call it Motley crue, sammy haggar doesn't tour alone and call it van halen, ozzy doesn't call his solo efforts black sabbath, nor does clapton call his solo projects cream.. WHat makesd a band is it's players, that's what the band is about, not anyone one person..

I really agree with you. Without Slash and the other guys, there is no GN'R.
Only a fake version of it.

au contrere' mon frere'? ::)

 and there will be more albums accordin 2 axl? : ok:
tho it could be that they are recordin the final music 2 be released from gunsnroses ever,but we don't know? :P?

and mike, in that sense, slash and duff was also as much hired members b4,
 -as brain and richard are now? ::) meanin they not  :P

the other guys... lol!
aka:  what am I chopped liver  :hihi:

I honestly believe that Slash is the only one the public at large would /would have 'missed'...
and now that they see him all over with Velvet Revolver... it won't be a mystery

I think the public will be be accept the new band... 
GN'R has what GN'R MUST have to be GN'R...   (among other thngs)... 
Axl's voice and persona

...oh what was the topic...  hm.. good question/topic

yeah, in my mind, it is a follow up to the Illusions

Yes it is a follow-up to the Illusions :yes:
No it's not gonna be anything like the Illusions :no:
 : ok:

 :smoking: Izzy? :smoking:

The reason im not into this "GNewR" is because these live tracks are all keyboards and there all slow songs with hardly any rock and its just dissapointing. The only newish track i like is "oh my god" i just dont like this stupid techno crap.

fuck yeah, oh my god rocks? : ok:

i just listened to those live tracks and i put the blues on. God that song makes me cringe when i hear it. I had to switch it off, it was purly disgracefull.

do any tracks on the UYIs make you cringe..?

When are you going to give it a rest?

I don't exactly understand what you guys mean by cringe ????
But if it's something negative then I've got two words, My World ?;D

 :smoking: Izzy ?:smoking:

never..  Why must you always come to their rescue.. :D

because they are my favorite band? Wont come to the "rescue" this time. I dont feel like shooting down your dumb ignorant comments yet another time. Ive argued the same point with you a zillion times now. I guess you like to beat a dead horse

I thought younggunner always came to your rescue.. :D Seemingly You need it.

I love "my world" .. never understood why so many people seem to hate it?  ???

Because after Don't Cry Alt. Lyrics, a great song, it seems to ruin UYI2. Plus it's not Rock n' Roll. I hate the "Guesse what I'm doing now" part? :(

 :smoking: Izzy? :smoking:

Or rather It lends spice to UYI2.

I love My World too.

Yes, in fact. I think of it as Illusions redux, because I thought Illusions is where Axl tried to redefine the GNR sound to something along the lines of Queen, Elton John, Boston, ELO, etc. And of course there was resistance in the band. So the sound of Illusions, to me, was not harmonious. People were not on the same page. And now Axl has the opportunity to do things his way, so it will very much be a continuation of the Illusion theme I'm guessing. The only thing missing is the original band.

It's not as if I skip My World when listening to UYI2, I just don't think it fits in with the album, in my opinion. (http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/traurig/sad-smiley-067.gif)

 :smoking: Izzy ?:smoking:

UYI had alot of filler unfortunately, but the veins of brilliance more than make up for So Fine, YATF, MW, and DC Alt. Lyrics.

I'd love to agree 100% with you but if you take into account all that Tommy has said you would be led to believe that this album is a "band" collaboration as a whole and not just Axl's vision to "do this , play this way , sing that note" or whatever .. it seems to me from what tommy has said is that every band member has been afforded much luxury to help shape and mold every song so that everyone has put their own stamp on them.  :peace:

No sense in arguing that Saul. Some people dont want to accept that reality.

You don't have to like the new songs but the only ones that are heavy on keyboards are Silkworms and Madagascar. 

There's no techno. Stick that into your thick cranium already.


Ditto here. A lot of people don't seem to realize what a groundbreaking sound that song had at the time.

Unfortunately, silence feeds the haters like blood to a virus.

Does that virus infect their brains and hearings?  :nervous:


Good post Saul!  Way to go!

Illusions was a band effort also.   : ok:

What you are saying then, if I understand correctly, is that Tommy, Richard, Robin, Buckethead when he was there, Brain, and Dizzy are all on the exact equal plain as Axl? This project is not being steered by Axl? Axl is doesn't have final say on what is used and what is not used?

Sorry but having a voice isn't the same as creative control. And before you use Tommy -- who I love by the way -- to establish a point, keep in mind that this is the same guy who has thought the record is coming out really soon for about 3 years.

This is a follow up to the illusion records. It's a constant evolution and progress in the music. He made it very clear at the end of UYI2 where he intended to go from there. This move was predictable,nothing shocking there.So,this is in my opinion a logical follow up to the illusion records.

No. Every ship has a captain and division of labour.?

I'd imagine Axl had thought like Tommy.
I would rather ponder on the meaning of the messages than just snub them

ok so when they play there new songs and theres axl with a digitally distorted voice and damn dizzy reeds keyboard making weird noises. So if you dont like the word techno, ill use electronic crap. Ill try to please you.

augh... why does one or another type of music have to be 'off limits'?
variety my friends - variety is GN'R.
nothing is off limits - there are no boundaries  : ok:
how's that for a fuck you rock n' roll attitude? ;)

wel the problem with the rock n roll attitude means you gotta be rock n roll, keyboards and voice distortion are not exactly what id class as rock n roll

As long as it sounds good and kicks ass it's rock n' roll? : ok:

 :smoking: Izzy? :smoking:

that would definatly be appetite then wouldnt it.... : ok:

so a piano player can't 'rock'?  hm
someone should tell elton john, billy joel, freddie mercury, and ray charles - to name a few
and voice distortion - axl just giving us something different - trying something different
its not like he sings through a megaphone all the time  :hihi:
 :peace:

Then go listen to an AC/DC record, they've been consistently dull for a long time.

I think when you start out on the top like they did (with AFD doing so well and becoming legendary), there's nowhere to go but down.  Illusions were great, I think.  But things fell apart.  Maybe, no matter what they did, they'd be seen as a failure 'cause nothing would ever measure up to the success of AFD.

I consider CD to be a midlife crisis project that has been taken too far.

Im with u Izzy, Js give me a great fucking album with about 12 tunes that I can listen to non-stop and Im cool.  :peace:

Sorry, but "Oh my Dog" doesn't rock at all...

It just sucks a lot ! :hihi:

And nobody should forget that Izzy Stradlin' came back in 1993 for some shows. So, I hope he will come back again with Slash and Duff.
If they don't come back, there won't be GN'R anymore...

I think of CD as Axl Rose's opus. I don't consider it a follow up to UYI, I don't even consider it a "group effort". It will be all Axl Rose from start to finish. I mean Tommy can say whatever he wants about collective effort and shit but we all know Axl Rose and what a control freak he is. I don't say that he tells every member what to play but i think it's pretty safe to say that if Axl doesn't like something he hears then it's not gonna end up in CD even if tommy,richard,robi,chris,brain and dizzy think it's the most beautiful piece of music ever written!Bottom line is that :A)if CD is awesome AXL ROSE will take all the credit B)if CD is shit AXL ROSE will take all the blame and AXL ROSE'S carreer will finish.
Tommy,Richard and co will always find another employer to work for. Of course they will be dissapointed because now they just collect pay checks and promote their solo works but that's another story... :P

just my 0.02

The guy who said CD is a mid-life crisis gone way too far had it right on the money. Couldn't have said it any better myself. Everyone's replies were great but I had never heard it put that way before.

I don't since I'm not close to him. ::)
Yeah and I think it's pretty safe to say that if anything Tommy, Richard, Robin, Chris, Brain or Dizzy doesn't like  then it's not gonna end up in CD coz Axl wants to do it (music on CD) as democratically as possible. That's why it took pretty long time according to Tommy.

A) B) What defines the music as awesome or shit? and who and how?

I argee with that and it will happen. I do not think it is a follow up to Use Your Illusions buecause this a a new line now for the band and time has changed a lot since then. I look as it as the biggest come back ever, next part in the history of Guns N' Roses and the return of rock.   

Well in answer to the subject's question...

... i'll tell you that when I'll hear it, is that ok? No? Wadaya think?

The Prodigy seem pretty Rock N Roll to me....

we are talking about the same man who put my world in UYI2 and the rest of the band didn't even know about that song right? And he did that to Slash, izzy and duff-imagine what he will do to a bunch of hired guns. I think that Axl Rose is the only one who has the final say regarding anything that goes on in gnr nowadays. He could change the entire track list (if something like that really exists) in a night and the rest of the "band" would know shit about it.


I will decide it for myself and u will do the same for yourself!however if for example i don't like the guitar parts on CD i won't blame robin and richard for that because Axl Rose had 10 years and 10 million dollars to find the perfect guitar player for the band!

I agree? : ok: Not only can Axl knock any song off CD, he can knock any musician off aswell. It might be a band but Axl owns it? ?:-\

 :smoking: Izzy? :smoking:

Evidently no. Says who? As far as I know, Duff from Velvet Revolver still likes My World.
Need I quote his sayings how much less Axl contributed to olde GN?R music than ppl think?

I'm not talking about an imaginary dictator from the past or imaginary hired guns.
I'm talking about the man who is the head of GN'R. I'm talking about the man who has started this Chinese Democracy and made music with Robin Bucket Brain Tommy Dizzy Chris and Richard who are/was with him in chasing the goal.

Tommy quotes
Q: What do you feel about the fact that this is an entirely revamped thing? Guns I mean.

That's actually the reason I joined. I talked to Axl about what he wanted to do with this thing. It's never been done before, where the singer keeps the name while the other guys fucking quit. Just knowing what his goals were for the whole thing that I thought 'This is probably the ballsiest guy I've ever fucking played with, so I'm in.'

Q: Who's easier to work with, Paul or Axl?

Axl, by a long shot. I'll tell you why, and I can explain this really well, actually. Paul liked to do it his way. He would hear things a certain way in his head but couldn't tell you how it was going to happen. It would get kind of frustrating. He would have a vision and would fucking beat it to death trying to get there. With Axl, he doesn't really have his own vision. He likes to take everyone's two cents and throw it into the soup, get everyone involved and kind of mold it that way. Axl could really take production credit on this record because he took the best of each of us on each song and crammed it together and made it a musical piece. I can't tell you how much I learned about collaborating with people while making the record, where Paul just kind of does it his way.

Q: It's interesting that you say that about Axl and his vision, because I would think most people would perceive the exact opposite?that he's got this strong vision and he's the dictator and this is how it's got to be.

Paul would be way more of a dictator than Axl. Axl is more of a collaborator, maybe even to a fault sometimes. He wants everyone involved. Part of that may have come from the old band, where everyone wanted him to sing their songs but didn't want to play the other guys' songs. It would be like, "I'm not going to sing on your song unless you play on his song," and then it becomes infighting and that kind of shit. That doesn't really keep a band together. On the new record, everyone's got a bit in there, their part of a song. It lends itself to us feeling a part of the whole record.

Yeah Axl lets them put stuff on songs, on the album and even write songs, but in my opinion if Axl doesn't like something he is either going to throw it out or take 10 years to try and fix or improve it. There ain't gonna be anything on CD that Axl doesn't think is perfect to it's full potential? : ok:

 :smoking: Izzy? :smoking:

The Producers and the Band leaders do their business but that doesn't make them control freaks or egomaniacs.
Even Jimmy Page wasn't called so.

I agree 100% : ok:

Regarding the interview from Tommy that ppbebe posted, I never said that Axl tells every band member what to play. They can play whatever they want but Axl is the one who decides what stays on CD and what doesn't, who is in the band and who isn't,if the "band" tours or not etc...

So I guess that Axl is pretty democratic, in a chinese way :-X

Axl is a control freak, I thought everyone here knew that. I'm a control freak too, so I don't use the term as a put down.

I like and respect your thoughts, ppbebe. Nothing you've said here is untrue; everything I've seen is well reasoned and smart. But I don't think you are considering all aspects of this discussion. So in the interest of exploration, may I ask you a couple questions?

Do you think anyone else in the band would have chosen to postpone the album this long? Do you think Tommy and Dizzy, shortly after the 2002 tour, when they began telling us that the album was nearly ready, figured that the album would come out in 2005 or later? And the fact that it will come out at least three years after they first began telling us that is almost done, is that a choice they made? If Dizzy, Tommy, Richard, Buckethead, Brain, Chris, or Paul, individually or as a group, asked Axl to put the album out sooner, would Axl have done so (since they are equals, after all, and two or three or six of them together would outrank Axl with respect to band decisions)?

Tommy himself, talking about listening to final mixes last December, said he hadn't heard some of that stuff in years. He had nothing to do with those songs for years. Brain made a similar comment in the recent interview.

Once they lay down tracks, Axl obviously takes control of all that raw material and cherry picks parts of songs he likes and molds them according to his own vision. He has the vision, and he has the control and the power fulfill it. That seems so clear as to be incontestable.

I guess I'm wandering here. In response to the thread's question, I'll say it this way: Axl put this new band together so he could define its musical direction. He chose the musicians according to his own taste. All these musicians signed contracts Axl's that lawyers wrote. He let these musicians have a voice and allowed them to write (he probably needed that help). If it was something he liked, he would use it. If it was something he didn't like, he didn't use it.

Yes this is a follow up to Illusions.

I understand what you are saying but no1 here{atleast me} is saying that Axl doesnt control those things. From the business side Axl CONTROLS its all. Tours, releases, etc. Its all Axl. Im sure he goes over everything with the band and for their suggestions/complaints but when its all said and done its all on Axl.

But in terms of the music side......its a complete band effort

how do you know it's a complete band effort on the music side?? Because tommy said axl lets them get involved..? It's axl's band and he has the final say in everything, a band no one has the final say, it's a group effort and can be shot down by anyone, I doubt that happens in axl's band.. These guys could all wait till the cows come home and they couldn't help get this album out.. If this was called the axl rose band these guys would walk out, they just know instant sucess will happen using the gnr name.. Axl has these guys out there with no info on the album, he makes them look like jackasses leaving them high and dry..

Shame because these guys are dedicated members, yet they get fucked over having to wait forever for axl who can't get one album out. He needs some equals involved so they could say enough and get the ablum out,,... Sounds pretty fucking selfish..

Let me add he probably does 99% of the vocals, especially anything epic, and his big self indulgent tunes.. Of course he doesn't do everything, he wasn't going to tell BH how to do his guitar work..

Yes, Tommy,Brain,Richard and Dizzy have all said that its been a complete band effort. When they talk about the project they talk about it as if its their own...

so then old gnr werent a band either? :-\

did i not mention this in my original post?

Probably the only true statement you have made. Good job? : ok:

The old lineup couldnt do that what makes you think any lineup could?

Ill take Axls masterpieces, aka self indulgent tunes over any "badass" rock n roll song out there today :yes:

They dont seem to mind why should you? This isnt called the Axl Rose band. Its gnr. And by all accounts they are happy to be in it with Axl and each other. If you wanna be a cornball and think all they do is take orders all day thats your choice not mine. It just shows how much of a pussy you really are...

If you think Axl is writing all the guitar, bass, and drum parts your dumb as fuck. But hey maybe Axl has become a master of all trades...highly doubt it though. But think as you wish homefuck

I agree with your posts a lot of the time. But please don't say "homefuck".

A follow up to the Illusions? Not in my view, really...

I think that the new material is really a redefinition of GNR, and ultimately Axl's last word on what GNR should sound like in this era.

The Illusions were, as they said on VH1, the original band's last creative gasp.. and I don't think that Axl's trying to erase those albums or make up for them - They are what they are, just as CD will be.

my apologies...

Okay, well put. But what about the last part of my post? This part deals with the creative end. I'll paraphrase it here:


I don't think it's possible to contradict any of this. And in that case, you kind of have to agree that the creative side of it is still all Axl. It begins with Axl and ends with Axl. In between is a little freedom and input from the players. But that's not the same as 'equal.'

It's like a movie studio that has in house screenwriters. The screenwriters come up with ideas. That's their job. But the studio accepts them or shoots them down according to their own interests. The studio and the screenwriters are not equals. Not even close.

And carrying that over to our discussion, Axl is analagous to the studio, and the band are the screenwriters.

For the most part I agree. BUt with a few exceptions. A lot of the members have joined the band based on recommendations from each band member. So its not like he went on a manhunt and hunted down the exact guys he weanted. If he didnt want certain guys, yea of course they wouldnt be there but you have to obiviously like some1 to play with them.

The other thing would be is...did any of that music stuff you just mentioned any different than old gnr? Axl had the final say in the old band as well. So in that regard its nothing new.

Axl might give more than a little freedom as well. Look at silk worms...like it or hate it...its not his song. he obiviously must like it somewhat but that doesnt mean he controlled the whole song etc....

Axl is no doubt the musical director and producer of this album. But he cant make all the sounds himself.

My whole point is that things are basically the same in terms of old gnr and new gnr music wise. The band makes the music, comes up with stuff...Axl decides whether he wants to do it or not. etc

Well,  Malcolm McAllen(sp?) and Vivian Westwood were the studio and the screenwriter and Johnny Rotten and co were puppets.

First off, thanks Johnnyblood. I love productive thinking and constructive discussion.

this in my first reply on this topic.
There're two things about Chinese Democracy.

side 1)The goals for the whole thing, which Axl has and the band members support.
side 2)The visions of music, which Axl doesn't have beforehand but let come out of mingling ideas of all the band members.



As younnunner mentioned, these Qs belong to side 1)  but Gladly I show off my suppositions.
1. No.
2. No.
3. Yes and No..
I think the most part of the suspension was not anyone's choice. Even Axl himself said he wanted to make an announcement within the following few months in the RIR press release. Also I hear in 2000? GN'R official site said something. Just look at this post by Magadas? :hihi:


Brain once said "If it ever comes out".
Tommy has said his doing solo prevents him from barking up the wrong tree.
Logically speaking, it's natural to guess there had been some bloody tough obstacles in the way of CD release, which made Brain this pessimistic at the time and optimisic Tommy frustrated.

4. It's not in their charge but I dare say he would have respected their request if he could have done so.
Nevertheless they wouldn't bother him with the impossible demand knowing the above mentioned matter which they all understood about.

the originator must be the most eager to realize this thing.

Just a thought.

I don't think its any/much different than with the old line-up


And in the August gnronline statement he said that some could say 'hey axl you wanted control of the band (too)'...
...Axl's response "Damn skippy"? ?
So, its not 'equal' ... never been
Axl said a long time ago that he is the one held responsible from day one.
He's said that he is the one that steers it...? ?(the band)
something about how you can't have more than one driver
The album will not be/isn't any less of a collaborative effort than AFD or UYIs
It is clear from the bandmembers comments - including Axl's own - that it is everyone bringing it in.? : ok:

great quotes btw ppbebe.. you rock!  : ok:

Those quotes are awesome. Axl also spoke well to a fan after the Hard Rock shows in which he mentioned why the album is taking so long.

A singer who keeps the name of a band, it is something that has already been done before...

But it didn't really work... :P

Yeah, and that was more than 4 years ago.

Not me those overdone piano rockers are so boring, the newer tunes are missing good solos.. Maddy is so damn boring, the whole martin luther michael j fox civil war mix is super slow.

Then dont support the band what can i tell ya? There will definately be some cool epics on CD so I guess you wont be liking atleast a portion of the album before you even hear a note

The way I look at it is Live Era was the follow up,and it was called "The End Of An Era" by Axl....So Chinese Democracy would be a new era altogether. :smoking:

Yeah Madagas posts are always informative.   :P What did he say?

I  think the album will be more of a collaborative effort than AFD or UYI twins.

Equal thingy is tricky. I don't think equal is the word. Are people equal in your family? Is a chairman equal to other members of the board? Is your right arm equal to your left leg? Yes and no.
To make a band function at its best, you must allow all the members have their says in music equally. One's input inspires the other. Like in this discussion, what you say makes me think. It's the same as democratic system works better than repressive one.

the spirit of GN'R remains as it has been but the band is more democratic than ever, I bet.

I wouldn't be surprised if one of his goals was to make the band as democratic as possible?.and if "they" had redone their job (finalizing CD)  until it finally gets every members absolute approval.

But the whole premise of this thread is whether or not CD is a follow up to Illusions.

I say it is. That's because, in the time from before Appetite to after Illusions, GNR went from being a group of five young guys with a common musical purpose to a company increasingly led artistically (through his business leverage) by Axl.

(How say I this? Thusly: No way do Slash, Duff, Izzy, Steven/Matt on their own time have any interest in piano-driven songs of 7-11 minutes, or with all the production delays for things that add nothing to the music itself... sound effects, vocal overdubs, etc. And the only reason they allow is that Axl has too much leverage to not allow it.)

So - let's remember the thread topic is "Is CD a followup to Illusions?" - there is the transition from the Appetite-era artistic approach of the band to the Illusion-era artistic approach. That is to say, from a communal-type situation that produced a very raw and simple album (which made them famous and successful), with everyone having more or less equal footing, to the executive-type situation, with Axl being President and the others being VPs, (which produced a successful album, but one much more divisive among both fans and critics).

The current lineup and album completes the transition that occured from Appetite to Illusions. It takes everything that characterized the making of Illusions (delays, 'epic' songs, perfectionism, Axl having more say than he did during Appetite) and exaggerates them.

The original members of the organization who didn't agree with Axl's vision have left or been fired and have been replaced by people who are willing to work within that structure. They've signed contracts written by Axl's lawyers which establish their role as 'employees' in GNR. They have the ability to write and offer material, but not no final say in anything.

That's why I think CD is a follow up to Illusions. I'm hoping for the best. I think it will be a better album than Illusions because everyone is on the same page.

And that still brings us back to the old gnr days

The thing is, it seems like in the old days nobody had final say in anthing. Now *somebody* does. And that began during the Illusion period. That's why I think CD is a follow up to Illusions. It's the whole concept of *somebody* having final say.

I think during the Illusion period Axl began to have the "final say" on things. Whether it was music, tours, etc.? Except for Duff, do you think the old members wanted My World on the album? DO you think they wanted to use pianos, do epics, ballads? So in that regard Axl did have the final say.

And in comparison to today. Its the same thing. Everyone jams, contributes, and makes suggestions. when its all said and done Axl will either shoot it down or put it in...

The precisely what I was saying. Illusions was where Axl began to have final say. He had more power and he exercised it. You gave a great example with My World. You could add Look at Your Game from TSI. I think this has been finalized with the current lineup and album. That's my whole point as far as CD being a followup to Illusions. It completed the process of Axl being a member of GNR to the president. He wasn't president of GNR in 1987. In 1991 he wanted to be president, except there was resistance. Now in 2005, he is president and there is no resistance. He has all the business power he needs to control the artistic end of things.

got ya ...and agree

With that being said though...we dont know if members of the band have shot down potential songs being on the album or not.

That's true. I suppose when the album comes out we'll hear more about the creative process of individual songs. That will tell a lot about the new band and how it works.

I know we both have the same high hopes for this album, too.  :beer:

I'm yet to know who in the new band has the last say on CD and who in the old band had it on Illusions or AFD, except Axl.
Nevertheless, as I said earlier, my bet is
Spiritual side: it's sorta follow up to Illusion twins. with deepened thoughts. "The School of Athens"
Material side: No.
There's no need to bring up the same subject in the same way. but I've done that 3 times on this topic.
Damn.

>> The precisely what I was saying. Illusions was where Axl began to have final say.

Axl has included not-so-welcome tracks on their releases since Lies. He did it with "One in a million" on there, "My World" on UYI II, and "Look at your game" on TSI. I'm sure there are others, though.

Never did the other way round? I mean, aren't there any tracks Axl didn't like so much but the other member did?


entre nous, Silkworms just come across my mind...no, I mean the moth  :-X

Under no circumstance can CD be considered a followup. CD must stand on its own legs. Even if CD is 2 albums released on the same day, like Illusions, it sill fails to meet the definition of a followup.

Posted on: Today at 06:40:44 PM Posted by: jameslofton29 
Insert Quote
Under no circumstance can CD be considered a followup. CD must stand on its own legs. Even if CD is 2 albums released on the same day, like Illusions, it sill fails to meet the definition of a followup.


Agreed.  I think of it as a "reinventing or reimagining" of the band.  The sound for Chineese Democracy seems a little too... I dunno.  The sound itself is just a different vibe. 

Even the fact that its different band members isn't the reason why its not a followup. If the band had done something in 95 or 96, even with a different lineup, it probably could have been considered a followup. But too much time has elapsed. And with Axl being the only relevant member left, CD's success or failure will fall on Axl's shoulders. I wish him the best of luck.

too much time has gone by for it to be a follow up....plus, its not even the same band.   I also see it as basically an Axl solo album.

I agree, Mrs. Rose. Lets say 12-14 years goes by after CD release without another album. I wouldn't consider the next album  to be a followup to CD.

^^I agree with both of you, definitely too long, this is more like Axl's solo comeback album.

I'm really interested to finally see who is writing these songs. In the old days, it was mainly Izzy and Axl. Now, we dont know who is doing the primary writing. For many years, all the new songs were only instrumentals with no lyrics. Its during the second half of the wait for CD that lyrics finally started to come together. I always figured that a lack of lyrics was one of the reasons for no CD. During some of the new GNR shows, Axl made a few references about songwriting. He used the term "we" instead of "I". Maybe the new album is written by everyone. That is completely different than in the past. And that fact in itself makes this album unlike any other GNR album.