Here Today... Gone To Hell!

We know that Michael Jackson is estimated to have spent $20 million recording 'Invincible'. How much of this was his own money, I'm not sure.

Now look at Guns N' Roses. $13 million and counting is rumoured to be the amount that the record label have spent. Has Axl spent some of his own money as well? Possibly.

This occured to me when thinking about the much lamented 3 album issue.
 
My question is this - Who do you have to be to get $13 million out of a record company, and what kind of results are the company expecting from this investment? Is there any other artist who whould be given $13 million to record one album?

My thoughts are this:

1). $13 million is spent on one album because the artist is huge and will sell millions of albums, leading to profit from touring, and profit from merchandise. (here we go back to my earlier question - has this much ever been spent before on one album?). If this is the case, then the label must expect phenomenal record sales from this album.

2). $13 million is spent on recording one album, and a lot more raw material for future albums. Depending on how close to completion this other material is, more money will need to be spent completing future albums. Again - the record company must have faith in a long lasting artist which will continue to bring in profit for the next few years by releasing more than one album and touring.

3). $13 million is spent on recording more than one album. Second and third album songs are near completion. Whatever happens, those songs exist and act as a reassurance to the company that future albums will be produced. Little extra money will be needed to complete future albums.

Which of these GNR come under, I have no idea. I do find it hard to believe that a record company would spend $13 million on one album (unless there are precedents someone can tell me about). Which kinda leaves me with the final two options.

Of course, GNR and the label have various contracts, which probably stipulate all kinds of things covering both parties so - did they invest this much because they know it has been spent to complete three albums worth of material as I mentioned in the third option, or did they do it because they know that they are totally covered by the contract that they have with GNR (i.e. a recoverable advance as described here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio1/onemusic/legal/recordp07.shtml), which makes option 2 pheasable despite the unreliability of a certain W. Axl Rose?

How do you get $13 million out of a record company?

@#$%Funker

one answer---> The Greatest Hits album.
Geffen has already earned much more than 13 milllion $$ with the Greatest Hits album. and I think money is not a problem for Geffen and W.Axl.Rose. Don't worry for them...

That doesn't actually solve everything. If they hadn't given Axl $13 million and released GH, that would be $13 more profit.

You could have a point about $13 not meaning much to a company that big - but why give it to GNR and not anyone else (that's if it's just for one album)

@#$%Funker

yeap. If the company spends 13 millons in the new album... it's because they know they will earn 100 millions as soon as they release it

The quality of the material on the new record might have something to do with it. 

Just a thought...

100 million? ?:rofl:

If they're lucky. ?:rofl:

Lets say for arguments sake that they sell each album wholesale for $10 (probably less than this).

5 million albums sold = $50 million

15% of these are actually given away free (see this article: http://www.bumblefoot.com/otherstuff/articles/wheredoesthemoneygo.htm)
So minus 15% = $42.5 million
Now give an artist like GNR around 20% of that = $34 million
Take off your $13 million = $21 million

How much does packaging, shipping, promotion cost = a lot

So by this point, your profit on this album isn't much above $15 million (I'm pretty sure they make even less actually)
That means by spending $13 million on recording instead of $2 million you've almost halved your profits.

If they sell ten million, you've lost about a quarter of your profit. My point being that one album isn't worth spending $13 million from a business point of view. Unless it's gonna sell huge. But like I said, costs per unit in terms of shipping and packaging and pressing, etc mean profits are not that high per unit.

@#$%Funker

I highly doubt that.

Silkworms....an experiment....,altho I love the intro. You can listen to the intro in verh high quality on gunsnroses.us, the medly vid of boston...it's there in the beginning, take a listen.

The Blues: great song, genuine lyrics


Madagascar: genious with the quotes, can't wait to hear the full orchestra.

Rhiad: average but has great guitar riff / still could work out to a great song.

There.......let's see......one song which sucks......silkworms.....soooo??? who cares?? They've only played it once at rio..... they haven't played it anymore.....they got the message.

And they haven't thrown out their big ones yet. And frankly these are already miles better then the shit bands nowaydays come up with...

Do Not Worry

"What we have here is failure to communicate..."

I was alluding to the fact that I think the material on Chinese Democracy will be exceptionally strong.

yes, correct, my bad.  :)

I don't think Geffen said, "Hey Axl, here's 13 million..go record a good record".
Years of having a studio booked around the clock with little or no work being
done, plus the hiring and firing producers and studio musicians is probably where
most of the money has gone. Not in their wildest dreams would they have guessed back in 1999 that they're still losing on their investment, with nothing to release.
Ideally, they'll get it back in some form, and lets assume (and hope) that they are given
material for a strong album and lots of additional tracks for soundtracks, or future
projects.

All this time working on the album can add up.  I think some of that money might go towards a bonus DVD with the album.  Or possibly a bonus album of B-sides or unreleased re-worked tracks of different songs.

Practice.

You forgot one big thing.  Touring!  The money they get from touring will be much more than album sales.

Probably a tax write-off when they dump the whole damn thing down the crapper.

i think they didnt plan to spend this kind of money , they probably have a contract with Axl covering the costs of making the album but Axl has spend much more money that the planned by the company . 13 million dollars are important for any company it doesnt matter if you are Geffen or Microsoft , they dont waste 13 million dollars just because they have billions , its has been a bad deal for Geffen i think , i dont know if they have indeed spend that kind of money , maybe its just a rumor.

Not really, the highest grossing tour ever was $300 million (Stones). But that's not realistic for Guns. Aerosmith's 2002 tour grossed only $36 million, which i think could be a good comparison. Still not enough to make $13 million insignificant

@#$%Funker

PROVE YOUR WORTH IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! : ok:

Where did ya get this number?? I have a feeling that this is another over-inflated rumor....First, it was 10 mil., now it's 13.....give me a link where a credible person mentions this...Please..

Peace

I concede that this has not been confirmed, but then it never is going to be.

There are several sources that have mentioned figures around $10 million

$13 million was mentioned by Steve Morgan (Reuters) in an article on March 16th:

"But a source familiar with the situation said the label has been waiting seven years for Rose to deliver "Chinese Democracy" and has poured $13 million into production of that album after repeated promises that he was about to finish the project."

There have been enough rumoured figures, and enough time spent in the studio/producers employed/etc to suggest this figure is realistic.

I wonder if other artists could get away with spending this much time and money. Would Madonna, U2, etc be allowed to do this. Is is down to the name and projected success, or is it down to having used the money to record more than one albums worth of material?

@#$%Funker

@#$%Funker

The $13 millions dollar figure is really what reinforces the notion that they are recording multiple albums, IMO. No record company is going to give a guy that much money to record an album, especially after they haven't done anything in 4-5 years, assuming they didn't start recording until '99. No way in the world. Granted, Axl is one of the most famous, successful rock stars in history, but promises don't equal money. Geffen must have really, really, REALLY seen something special in this project, something they knew would be guaranteed money.

I have a question about the multiple albums scenario.

If Axl recorded 3 albums worth of material to release at a pre-determined time after the initial release of Chinese Democracy, to please Geffen or whoever, isn't that kind of goin' against his morals or artistic values?

Wasn't the big deal about the Use Your Illusion albums that it was a new and different direction from Appetite For Destruction, that he (Axl) was musically lookin' to evolve Guns N' Roses. Axl could have played it safe and gave us all another Appetite but he chose the road less traveled. I personally find it hard that Axl is just goin' to release records he's already recorded after a determined amount of years just to please Geffen or return his end of the bargain or favour.

Axl seems to be a very complex individual, I just find it hard that he would allow the initial release of Chinese Dmocracy, to be followed up by more albums that are more or less Chinese Democracy sessions. Won't Axl feel the need to write new material? I understand he wants all his materail to be heard, but I'm not so sure he wouldn't want to record some of his new ideas rather than have to wait for all the releases to be finished before he can go on. 

I remember seeing an interview with I think it was that guy Outcast.......he said he'd never tell a label that he's almost finished a record because they made him release what he had before he wanted. ? I bet most musicians don't get the treatment that Axl gets....unlimited budget, time, etc...He deserves this special treatment and I think the label have heard the majority of the the new songs and feel confident that they're going to make their $$ back. ?If there was no material to back up the huge bill then i think the label would have preasured a release or drop Axl from the payroll. ?

I think selling eigthy million records might've had something to do with it. : ok:

The follow ups are not going to be the scraps of CD. The follow up albums will be completely different type albums. The band hasnt just been working on Cd.

Im sure the band jams when they are on tour and if they come up with soemthing Im sure they will work on it. I think that the followups are done but can be adjusted. The point is that the material is there and ready to go...but lets get the 1st 1 out first...

yeah, i think thats it : ok:

What makes you think that the material is there and ready to go?

because they have the groundwork down for each of the albums. my point was that the followups are done but could be adjusted along the way

Geffon or whatever they were named back then, gave Axl a $10M advance to make a record sometime back in 95 or earlier. So whatever confidence they had in GNR back then, or music they could have heard has probably changed. Its not like Geffon just handed $10M over during the last couple years. They were expecting a record back in 96-97.

The RS article from 2000 talks about it some of the stuff Axl bought.

"They jammed at the Complex in Los Angeles and at Rumbo Recorders for weeks and months at a time, usually at night. Axl brought in a showroom full of guitars and effects. "It's a musical-instrument convention," one observer says. "He has more knobs and keyboards and strings and wire and wood in there than you could possibly imagine could even be manufactured." Of Axl's guitar setup, Abbruzzese recalls, "You could hunt buffalo with his rig. It had a lot of lights, a lot of blinking lights, a lot of things that you stepped on. It sounded like a freight train that was somehow playable."

Intresting, seems they been workin throughrly with music

I never saw that RS article. ?It sounds pretty bad ass. ?I'm thinking he has the guitar parts down, but is not satisfied with the vocals yet. ?

It is as simple as this...when you put in as much as Geffen have...you can't just pull the plug, otherwise it is all lost for another record company to pick it all up. Think about it, when you have so many $$$ how much more is 1 or 2 million ?
As for the multiple Album deal that is being discussed here, it doubt very much that we will see multiple albums from the last few years sessions, I do however believe in that there will be plenty of extras and bonuses. We should just count ourselves lucky to see one Album at all. Remember, although some people consider Axl to be a musical genius, he seems to lack a constant work ethic. Disagree ? Well..... How long has it been ?

Saying this, I believe that 2005 will be the year for the album, but not necessarily the year of GNR. The record has been build up so much, it is doomed to fail. Or ?

well the label has even said that they would've never put out the greatest hits album if axl had release chinese democracy by that time.  so i'd say its safe to say that at least part of it is the fact that they knew they could always use a GH to fall back on if necessary to get there investment back.

another thing is its probbaly setup to where if axl decides he does not want to release the album he probably would have to pay back the record label a lot of what they invested to keep them from releasing it.  kinda like on the november rain video when axl was thinking about paying the band or whoever to keep  it from coming out which would've put him in his words flat broke at the time but he decided to let it get put out.  either way the record label is gonna get their money back

That's how I see things, too. Once the company spent 5-10 millions to an album and it's still not ready, theey can't release it, because there is not enough material/not enough quality material to release the album. So the company will give another million, and then again and again...and when they'll fed up with the situation they'll fire the band. IMO Axl must have enough material for an album, 'cause he had 10+ years for it, but as I see, he's never satisfied with the product so decided not to record his vocal parts until the music isn't 'ready' as he wants it. When a track is okay for him, he records the vocals. But he's aware not to complete an album worth of material, 'cause in that case Geffen could force him to release those tracks and he doesn't want it. He wants it to be his masterpiece to justify his decision of firing/banishing Slash & Co. But IMO 4 years would have to be enough for him to make an ultimate album, if he still had the talent and sanity.


The multiple album thing is bullshit.

every company wanna have the name to distribute,

why is the more album thing bullshit ???

did i miss out :coffee:

Exactly where my mind's heading with this....

@#$%Funker

not its not :no:....but you can keep telling yourself that  : ok:

yes it is...  :-\ but you can keep telling yourself that  : ok:

i dont have to tell my self that... Axl has already told me  : ok:

One thing is sure sure axl ain't going to see a penny of the sales of the album.

Unless axl has some super contract with geffen (not likely) all the money they've given him he has to pay back out of his share of the album sales. Typically that is about 12% but in gnr's sake lets aim high... say 20%. so on 15 dollar cd gnr would make  3bucks.

now out of that 3 bucks geffen can subtract 10% for technology upkeep, 10% for returned cd's, not to mention they can deduct 50% of royalty during times they've spent promoting the album heavily (which they also deduct from gnr's royalties), as well foreign sales often lose up to 50% of the artist's royalty.

add on the cost of video's and promotion to the 13 million already, easilly another 3 million 16 million now... plus deductions

after deductions gnr will probably if luckily clear maybe 1.70 per record. gnr will have to sell 10 million before they break even, while geffen will make crazy cash.

not that axl would care because he and the rest of the band will make their money from the publishing royalties and live gigs. I'm sure axl is not concerned about the 'artist' royalty percentage.

and if they don't sell enough albums.... then the band will legally owe geffen the remainder of the costs... which they could then sue axl and take him for all he is worth.

He better hope this album does well.

It's fairly common that a band makes their money from concert ticket and merch sales. Record contracts are set up to make record labels money. Guns N' Roses and Axl Rose are no exception to this rule. If anything they are probably more bound to this rule, as the label sees the GnR name as something of a money maker for the label. Geffen/Interscope aren't going to put out Chinese Democracy because they simply beleive in Axl and respect his art. My guess is that they don't give a flying fuck about his art. They are putting out that record because they think they are going to personally be making a mint off of it. The idea that Axl Rose is somehow exempt from this kind of treatment when every other musician with a record contract isn't is just silly.

Check out the Wilco documentary I AM TRYING TO BREAK YOUR HEART if you want to see what a bunch of motherfuckers the record industry are.

I think its the same source as what helped Axl acquire some amazing session musicians to come and work on these records. It probably helps to be an incredible negotiator and talent. Axl did represent himself in court before. He's a very outspoken individual, partcularly when he feels he is right about a situation - which is 99% of the time. He also has hired some great people in the background and a lot of "yessssss" men, who will never stop to defend Axl, to further his cause and to insulate him from the world. There are also quite a few members in these boards who do Axl's work for free by trying to promote everything he does as brilliant. Im not going to bag on all these people - its a testament to the success Axl had had in winning his admirers and his fans through his talents and personal charms and dynamic looks and attitude.

Personally though while I really really like Axl, sometimes, I really resent the money he was given by the record company because its like a carte blanche to let him do whatever he wants for however long he wants which has become a pain in the ass to the fans, musicians, the company and even Axl himself. Its like why bother? Life is too short to obssess over making a record or even a series of records. In the process, Axl has shot down any other means to advance his career and his celebrity and to diversify his talents. All he has left now is this "damn record". H'es put all his marbles on it,. but the funny thing is that he hasn;t advanced his bets yet on its success.
PEOPLE, Axl could have acted in feature films, he could have written books, produced bands, co-written songs, co-performed with the likes of U2 which he was going to do after 1993, gotten married, had kids, gotten a law degree for God-Sakes and a wwhole lot more. Instead all he has left is this record, and its pathetic that since 1993-94, he has been an overwhelming dissapointment and seems to have forgone the dreams he had as a struggling artists in Lafayette Indiana/LA.

Thats why I celebrate the man and his band from before 1993, and maybe the few success that have come since such as VR. Let the $13 million take care it itself.

MNR

He said a lot of things...

Time will tell, but if he'll be release 3 albums in a row in 2015, 2016 and 2017, you'll surely feel that it's the proof for your theory. Man, he even had to release 3-4 perfect albums since 1994.

Maybe Axl doesnt care about being that kind of "celebrity". Its obivious the guy had a lot of shit to deal with with his personal life and his career. Maybe his only goal is to make the best dam music he can make. WHy is that a bad thing is beyond me.
You say how hes missed all of these "oppurtunities"...but why do you care? He certainly doesnt care. Why should you? He has his life and he does what he does. Hes obiviously happy otherwise he would be pumping record affter record with or without the old guys. He would have came out of the hole years ago if he wanted it all back.

Hes got his life and hes making the music. The best music he can make. Nothing wrong with that.

Yep and none of those things have to do with the actuall music. More to do with "release dates" etc...

if theres one person that can do it...its Axl ROse

When is the deadline for this project? February is looking less likely everyday.

While I mostly agree with you yoinggunner.  You must also realize that he took 13 millions out of Geffen and as of right now he has nothing to show for it.  I'm just surprised that they didn't drop GnR already.  So in that sense he's lucky.  And for Chinese to be successful he'll have to sell at leat 8 million copies.  I say that because I remember that Joe Elliott from Def Leppard said that it had cost 12 million to make Hysteria and they had to sell 8million just to pay back the 12 million$  So the longer it takes.  The more pressure Axl is putting on himself.

I think we as the fans have to realize is although things seem bleak and we dont know anything...that doesnt mean the band and the company dont know whats going on. Im willing to wager the company knows a lot more of the bands plans than we do. So as a result they dont get "involved" .

From a financial standpoint your prob right...but that does really mean if CD was successful?

I'm sure the record company has made back what it spent on CD.  You all have to remember Gn'R still sell a lot of their back catalog every year.

They could have made the same money and not have spent a dime on cd, so they still haven't made any money on their investment..

theres something in life/business called....short term and long term investments

You get 13 million because you don't release anything new for 10-11 years and you're still working off of a contract you signed in the late 80's/early 90's when you were still the biggest band in the world selling 10-15 millions copies per album and selling out stadiums. I am sure at the time giving him that type of advance money was no big deal because there was a guarantee they would make it back off of them. I don't think at the time they extended that contract to Guns they figured they wouldn't release an album of new material from 1991 to 2005. So from that aspect, Axl was smart in taking his time as he will never see another contract like the one he is working on now, and the record company just kind of gets screwed as a product of circumstance with nothing to really do.

and very, very long term investments