Here Today... Gone To Hell!

Check this out...


http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?cgiurl=http%3A%2F%2Fcgi.ebay.com%2Fws%2F&krd=1&from=R8&MfcISAPICommand=GetResult&ht=1&SortProperty=MetaEndSort&query=velvet+revolver+tickets

Especially infuriating are the Philadelphia tickets, those bastards are selling those for around $90.  And I know for fact that they were $22 on ticketmaster.   >:(

Yeah, they were $22...

I gave in and bought 2 for $77 ($87 S&H).  It sucks, but so does not going.  

I wish there was something more they could do about this scalping.  Even Duff said in the KROQ appearence yesterday, "Dont let the scalpers buy all the tickets before the kids can."   :no:

i have 8 tickets for the PHILLY show. i will be selling 2 of them. let me know if you are interested in buying them from me.

Face value after service charges is $30. On e-bay i think i could get $60-$80 per ticket.

BUT, i would sell it to anyone on here for $50 per. i know, still $20 more, but i need beer money  :beer:

I think both sides would feel more comfortable dealing with someone on this board, rather than a total stranger on e-bay.

Fees could be avoided, as well as shipping costs since we could meet in person in the philly area ASAP, or meet a couple hours before the show.

This one is driving me crazy. Do I give in and support the scalpers or do I miss out on Velvet Revolver?  :confused:

Kind offer, and I would love to accept it.  But on principle, I am not paying any more than ticketmaster would've charged.  You're still not any better than any other scalper if you paid a certain price for a ticket and then nearly doubled its cost.  If you offered the ticket for $35, I'd take you up on it.  I'd willing to pay you $5 more just for the favor, but not $20 more.  Let me know if that would be an acceptable compromise for you.

I don't have much too add to this thread, other than I FUCKING HATE SCALPERS.  It's such an easy way to take advantage of people, and it's such a shitty thing.  Fuck beer money, what about the kids who won't even be able to go the show because they can't afford paying a 200% surchage on their tickets?

dizzy - i understand where you and others are coming from. but i'll have to pass on your offer.

the situation does suck big time. i'm lucky enough to have extras and the market is setting their value at $50+ a piece. with my wife not working (taking care of our baby) and lots of bills to pay, i'd be stupid not to e-bay them.

scalpers aren't ALWAYS a bad thing. this situation sucks cause i'm sure alot of scalpers bought a ton of tix. but i've bought from scalpers several times, and was thrilled that option was available to me cause getting tix for certain things is next to impossible.

example....NFC championship game two years ago. i bought tix from a scalper for $200 a piece, which is about 300% mark up. but there were essentially no tickets available to non-season ticket holders so i was happy to pay that much for them.

Well, there's two kinds of scalpers - those who buy to scalp, and those who intending on going but then something came up.  I don't really have a problem with the second type, but the first type is the problem.

Anyway, it's a little different for a sporting event because of season tickets, but for a one time rock show, it sucks big time.  You say you were able to get tickets that you normally wouldn't have been able to, but part of the reason you wouldn't be able to in the first place is because the scalper bought the tickets first - just to sell to you at a higher price.  You're just getting totally screwed and some asshole is making money, as well as making you go through more trouble just to get the tickets.

That is so cool of Duff.  One thing I can say about him is that he has always expressed a caring for the fans.  I remember hearing him on a radio interview when UYI I & II were about to be released back in 1991..........

He said something like, "If you kids can't afford both, you can buy one and your friend can buy the other and you can share."  He went on to say that he knew that the record company would not want him to be saying such a thing, but too bad.

Duff= Fan friendly and appreciative for the support that ultimately pays his bills.

Look - the bottom line is that you have the same chance to buy tickets as the "scalpers" do.  Just be online at ticketmaster.com when the tickets go on sale and you have nothing to worry about.  I know for a fact that EVERY VR show in this tour has had tickets available for at least 15-20 minutes after they went on sale.  (With the exception of DC)

No.

I was online for Philly tickets at 9:59, refreshing the page every second.  When tickets finally went on sale at around 10:01, they were sold out.  While I didnt think it was possible, every radio station confirmed it, saying that it sold out in under a minute and one DJ saying hyperbolically "These tickets sold out in 1.10th of a minute".  So its lame to excuse scalpers or imply that its out faults.  Its the scalpers faults that real fans arent getting these tickets, its obvious as can be..

didn't i also read somewhere that there wasn't a ticketlimit...if that's the case then it's the fault of VR too...how hard is it to put a limit of 4 tickets each?

Philly sold out in 2min and NY in 3min because of the scalpers. so i had to buy from ebay at double the price >:(

So what?

The bottom line is that dickheads buy tickets just to sell them for a higher price to the same people they prevented from buying at the normal price in the first place.  That's fucking shitty, and there's no excuse or way to justify it.

sandman, I hope you realize it is illegal in the state of Pennsylvania to sell your tickets at such a high price. The law states you can not sell your tickets for more than 25% over the face value or $5, whichever is higher. 25% of $22 is $5.50. The maximum you are allowed to charge is $27.50. I'm sorry but you're no better than any other greedy scalpers who depends on a fan's desperation to see their favorite act. Actually, I think it's worse because you are a fan of this band so you should know what it's like.

We didn't allow scalpers to sell tickets for the GN'R shows in 2002, and we're not gonna allow it for VR tickets either.



/jarmo

Selling for over face value is lame. I don't care what the story is.

When I got better tickets to the Mandalay Bay show I offered the other tickets at face value (maybe with the TM fees I can't remember) on this board. I have two kids, two cars, two dogs, a wife , a house payment, student loans, cc bills you name it. But I didn't ask for more. I knew it would be rude to the fans on this board and greedy. What's an extra 50 bucks?

Sandman,

I can understand the temptation to sell the tickets on ebay for a high price which you know you will get, but the bottom line is, you're still no better than any other scalper.  I agree with what K Rock and Girl Gunner said, selling tickets at that much above face value -- regardless of your mountain of bills -- is bullshit.  Every scalper could use that excuse, "oh I've got bills to pay".  And Girl Gunner pointed out the illegality of selling them at a high price (something that I didn't realize, but makes perfect sense).



As Booker already pointed out, your "facts" are untrue.  The Philadelphia show sold out in less than a minute, and the NYC show sold out in 3 minutes.  And every other show sold out way too quickly as well.  If scalpers weren't buying the damn things in copious amounts, they'd be available for a lot longer and in more quantities, so don't act like it's our fault that we couldn't get tickets.



That isn't the band's job.  It's the tour promoter's and/or  manager's responsibility to arrange for ticket limits.  And given Duff's statement, it's obvious that he wanted ticket limits, and I'm willing to bet he made this known to VR management.

In any case, this situation is fucked up.  I tried to get tickets to the D.C. show and it fucking sold out immediately.  I tried to get a ticket to the Philadelphia show and it too sold out immediately.  A real bitch too, because I really, really want to go.  The Philadelphia show is especially appealing because I know the venue and several people from here are going.


AND ONE MORE THING I WANT TO ADD...

A double FUCK YOU to any ebay scalper reading this.   >:(  Not only are they selling the tickets at outrageous inflated prices, they are also charging between $5  and $15 for shipping.  15 fucking dollars?  Jesus H Christ, all you have to do is drop them in an envelope and put a 37 cent stamp on them!  Greedy bastards.   >:(

First of all - you're right.  Several of the other shows (NYC, Philly, St. Louis) sold out very quickly.  However, there are still tickets for S.F. and Kansas City and Minnesota, Toronto & Chicago all took a little time to sell.

The DC show is at the 9:30 Club which only holds 900 people or so.  That was going to sell out quickly regardless of scalpers.  The scalpers do offer you the opportunity to go to the DC show (albeit at a higher price) - which you wouldn't have otherwise.  

Also to clear up another point - selling tickets for more than face value is perfectly legal in most states.  However, it is NOT in Penn, NY and NJ - so whoever is scalping the Philly or NYC shows might be in violation of local laws.  Plus, several of the shows (KC & SF in particular) have tickets selling on EBay for face value.

I just don't understand all the whining about scalping.  It's capitalism at work and is (in most states) perfectly legal.  I, for one, have been a big purchaser of tickets on EBay to get EXCELLENT seats that I would have otherwise not had access to.  I don't mind paying a little bit more for that.  Hell, if you buy your $20 tickets from Ticketmaster they'll cost you another $10 in ticketmaster surcharges and $20 to mail them - now THAT'S robbery.

I agree it can be frustrating having to pay such high prices for tickets (which are usually too expensive in the first place - $200 for Madonna???), but to act like scalping is "immoral" or "unethical" is just sour grapes.

That said, I'll be at the DC show (bought my 6 tickets on tickets.com at 10 AM sharp when they went on sale) - hope everyone else can make it.  Don't let paying a few extra bucks keep you home!

"A double FUCK YOU to any ebay scalper reading this.    Not only are they selling the tickets at outrageous inflated prices, they are also charging between $5  and $15 for shipping.  "

Actually, most EBay scalpers list the tickets at face value.  It's the PUBLIC that drives the price up to outrageous prices.  Regular scalpers tend to post outrageous prices, though.

Ticket scalpers' greed are the reason why ticket prices keep rising. They are hurting the average fan. I've read plenty of articles on this subject. The reason why artists like Madonna charge $200 is because they see the scalpers making that much money so they decide to raise their prices so that money goes to them instead of the scalpers. While I don't necessarily like the increase in prices, I can't blame the artists for wanting that money to go to them instead of the scalpers who are just leeching off the artists and their fans.

Did you know Ticketmaster is going to start auctioning off the best tickets to concerts because of the ebay scalpers? No longer will the average fan be able get nice seats at their favorite concerts because only the wealthy will be able to afford these tickets.

What they are doing is highly unethical and I never understood why it's legal. They are screwing the musicians, their employees, the venues, and the fan. Why should I be forced to pay more for a ticket because someone is greedy when I should be able to get them for face value?



Bullshit. Go search on ebay for Velvet Revolver Philadelphia. There's hardly any tickets even close to face value. Most of the auctions only accept the buy it now feature.

You continue to demonstrate how factually challenged you are.  Did you bother to check my ebay link?  You can clearly see that the OPENING bid price for the scalpers' tickets ranges from $45-$90 plus the $5-$15 shipping charge.  The damn things cost $22 on ticketmaster, plus around $8 fees.  And I have never paid a dime for shipping on ticketmaster.  All you need to do is select the "no additional charge, you will get your tickets no less than 48 hours before the show" option and you only pay ticketmaster fees.

And whatever fees ticketmaster charges -- while that is a legitimate complaint -- are irrelevant to the discussion of scalpers.  Don't turn the tide onto ticketmaster to alleviate the scalpers of blame.


So should I thank them for the favor?    ::)

And that's bullshit anyway.  If the bastards weren't BUYING copious amounts of tickets before I could buy one, I WOULD have the opportunity to go to the show because there would be tickets available!

First of all - that is true about opening bids on certain tickets (Philly, NY & St Louis for example).  But NOT true for DC, KC, SF, Minn and lots of other shows.  Plus - be sure you're not looking at opening bids for tickets that didn't sell - that's irrelevant since nobody bought them.  But you're definitely right about the prices on the Philly and NY tickets, which is interesting since selling tickets for more than face is ILLEGAL in PA and NY/NJ.  Simple misunderstanding.

The main reason this "debate" is going on in the GNR group is because of the VR concert situation.  What we have here is a concert that is being held at too small of a venue for the demand - at far too low a price.  Of course, I'm very happy w/ the low price b/c I was able to get VR tickets for DC at $20.  Evidently others didn't have the same luck.  If I hadn't got them, I would have bought them from someone on EBay in a SECOND.  That's life.  That's capitalism.

You don't have a constitutional right to go to a concert or sporting event at a reasonable price.  Just like you don't have a "RIGHT" to buy $.99 popcorn in a movie theater.  You will be charged what the public is willing to pay.  The EBay scalpers wouldn't exist if it weren't for the hundreds of people that are more than happy to buy these tickets at higher than face value.  Just for comparison, check out some recent auctions for Prince tickets that went well BELOW face value as the scalpers were stuck with the tickets.  This happens too.

The argument that I really don't buy is that it hurts the "TRUE FAN".  In a first-come first-served basis there is no guarantee that the "TRUE FAN" gets their tickets.  In fact, my point I was making is that maybe the "TRUE FAN" has more of an opportunity with scalpers because they value the tickets more and are willing to pay $75 a ticket for them.  (Of course, maybe this benefits the "RICH FAN" - lol)

Scalpers wouldn't exist if concerts were priced in line with public demand (see Madonna or Prince's tickets).  Scalping, while ANNOYING, is no less ethical than buying an antique table from someone that sees it as "junk" for $25 and re-selling it at an antique show for $200.  Or having a car dealer give you $2,000 for your trade-in and re-selling it for $5,000.  It's capitalism - not unethical.

By the way, I don't know how I became the "voice of scalpers" - kind of funny actually - been coming to this board for years following the adventure of Chinese Democracy and anxiously awaiting the return of Axl Rose.  (I did have 3rd row tickets for the MCI Center show - the one RIGHT after the cancellation in Philly :(  )

obviously, no one on this board has gone to business school. scalpers are doing nothing illegal (except in two or three states, scalping is totally legal).

it's a totally legal way to make some extra cash. every business out there marks up their goods 100-1,000% or more.

i also sell computer merchandise and hand trucks and choppers. i buy in bulk and take the risk that i won't be able to sell anything. but i charge more than what i paid to turn a profit. and people buy hand trucks from me for say $100 that cost me $50. but i ordered them from overseas, picked them up from the airport, stored them and shipped them. but customers are thrilled to pay the $100 for convenience.

it's called business. don't be so angry. or so cheap.

and don't hate the scalpers.....hate the people that buy from scalpers.

Sandman - I couldn't have said it better myself.  

I'm sorry guys, but that's total crap.  I'm as big of capitalist as the next guy, but legal or not, there's no way to justify ripping people off like this.

It's not the same thing as a markup in a retail - the retail provides the public with the access to the product.  Ticketmaster is already providing the public access to the product, just some assholes get there first and demand that you pay a toll to them.  They're not providing any service, they're not doing anything, except charging more for a product that's already been made accessible directly to the public.

Go on, keep trying to justify it.  There's lots of legal ways to rip people off but that doesn't mean you're not an asshole or you're not ripping people off.

That's the difference - you're giving the customer a convenience.  You're offering a service in exchange for the markup.  Scalpers do no such thing, in fact, they make it more inconvenient to actually get ahold of a ticket.


What?  Hate the fans who just want to go see a band?  ::)  No, I'll hate the fuckers that fuck with their chances of being able to see the band and then charge them more for the inconvenience.

I'm an asshole. I just paid 300 for Madonna tickets (and not even the best seats).
What i fail to understand (and a cookie to whoever can explain this to me) is why the best seats open up the day of the concert (to a "sold out" show). Are people allowed to sell back tickets to the box office?!  :-\ Where the fuck do those tickets come from?
I had THE best seats in the house to see Guns at MSG in 02, only because the guy i went with had figured this little ditty out the day of the show. He kept going back to the box office and the tickets available became better and better until we got the best ones. Chris Rock was sitting BEHIND me.
Someone please explain.

ETA: one more thing- how do scalpers "get there first"? what the fuck do they know that we don't?

I fully concur.  Suppose I went into a music store and bought every single popular CD and then sold them to people in the parking lot for triple the price I paid for them?  Is it legal?  Sure it is.  Am I ripping them off by doing so?  Sure I am.  Does it make me a greedy asshole?  Sure it does.




Right on.

I'll hate the scalpers and feel sorry for the people who support them because they can either choose to get ripped off or not go to the show.


Check this shit out....

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=16122&item=2241876512&rd=1

This particular bastard has 30 tickets available, and he's selling them at $40 apiece, plus $20 S&H.   >:(

I can't believe you people are comparing scalping to legit business practices. The beauty about our country is that competition is encouraged. We have the right to shop around to find the find the best price. If I don't want to pay dealership prices for a used car I have the option of buying one that is for sale by the owner. However, we don't have that option when it comes to buying tickets. It's bad enough that Ticketmaster has a monopoly on the ticketing industry, but scalpers are making it harder and harder to buy a ticket at a half-way decent price. They realize we have no options so they use that to their advantage. Their greed is now causing ticket prices to continually rise because the musicians feel that they should be getting that money, which they should. Concerts used to be for anybody but now they are starting to become for the rich or for the idiots who buy something they can't afford.

I agree 100% with loretian. The scalpers are only ripping off the musicians because they are making a huge profit that rightfully belongs to the musicians.

thanks loretian, maybe i am a fucker, but i'm a fucker that's gonna be drinking free beers at the VR concert.

ticket brokers are a totally legitimate business. when i was in SF and needed giants tix, who did i call? a ticket broker. total convenience.

when darkness tix went on sale and i was not able to use my tricks of the trade to get tix, i just went to a ticket broker. total convenience.

and it's not ripping people off when the consumer has the fucking choice to buy or not buy. i paid $75 to see the darkness in philly. i think it would be ridiculous to bitch and moan and claim i got ripped off.

and your drug analogy is a bit off for obvious reasons that i won't even waste time mentioning.

and keep in mind that bands love ticket scalpers. it guarantees strong sales and creates more of a buzz. it's free marketing. and VR is in total control of ticket limits, and if they wanted limits, they would have had them.

"greed is good" (interesting quote from an awesome movie)

sandman, I understand that's it's nice to have scalpers and brokers as an alternative if a concert is sold out, but don't you realize that they are part of the reason you weren't able to get tickets in the first place? They are cutting down your chances at getting tickets at a somewhat reasonable price and then relying on your desperation to pay their ridiculous prices. If it wasn't for them you may have gone to those events at a cheaper price.

Also, bands don't love scalpers as you say they do. Obviously, they don't mind that their tickets are selling, but they do mind the fact that scalpers are making a huge profit off of these tickets that the artists' are missing out on.

Just as GirlGunner said, the point is that your scalping makes it so the consumers can't buy the tickets.  That's the problem.  It's not like you're offering something that wouldn't be unavailable to consumer normally, you're hijacking the normal process and charging a markup.

Compare it to any other standard industry - you wouldn't be able to get away with it.  The comparison to importing computing goods is not valid because you're importing goods.  Scalping is on the same level as walking into a toy store, buying all the Tickle Me Elmo dolls, and then saying only the hardcore "Sesame Street" fans are the ones willing to shell out the extra money while you sell them on the street, laughing at all the kids who can't afford your marked up price, because they're not "true fans" of Elmo and Big Bird.  Of course, if you hadn't bought all the dolls in the first place, the kids would be able to afford them and get what they wanted, at the price the creator and the retail decided the market could handle.

I don't think you guys are getting the point, and I'm sure you feel the same way about me.  I am a 100% red blooded capitalist, I believe in the free market, and the fact that it forcefully creates services and allows for markups, but this is so different.  I don't even know how to get the point across to you.

Well, you did.


Okay, what about the other analogy I used?  I noticed you ignored that.  Here it is again.....

Suppose I went into a music store and bought every single popular CD and then sold them to people in the parking lot for triple the price I paid for them.  Is it legal?  Sure it is.  Am I ripping them off by doing so?  Sure I am.  Does it make me a greedy asshole?  Sure it does.

That's exactly what the scalpers are doing.  What is so difficult to understand about that?



Yes, I've seen Wall Street, and the man who said that was the villain of the movie.  Just as greedy bastards are in this case.  Your implications that scalpers are doing a good service for the public are outrageous.  Just read loretion's and Girl Gunner's posts, for they've already explained why.

Explain to me how it's different than buying an antique at an estate sale and reselling it for more.  Explain to me how it's different from buying a used car at an auction and selling it for more.  IT IS NO DIFFERENT.  It is taking advantage of an underpriced item, that's it.  

All of us like bargains, don't we.  The only reason people are "bitching" is because they didn't get a chance to get the same bargain that others did.  Scalpers don't have any advantage over you in getting tickets - we're all in the same boat.  If you didn't get them and the scalpers did, it's either because you didn't choose to wait in line or get online when they went onsale - or just simply bad luck.

All I'm saying is - it is not WRONG or UNETHICAL - and certainly doesn't make you an asshole if you sell a ticket for a profit.  What I acknowledge that it is - is ANNOYING - agreed - but not UNETHICAL.  It's no more unethical than a jeweler marking up jewelry 500%, or popcorn in the movie theater being $5.00.

You do NOT have a right to buy tickets at a reasonable price.  Nowhere in our constitution will you see that.

I dont know why its so hard to understand that ticket-scalping is wrong.  Because no matter how many yuppie douchebag excuses you give, the bottom-line is that the ticket buyers (the people who actually plan on attending the show) are getting ripped-off by the scalpers.  

Its really simple: If the scalpers didnt buy up a lot of the tickets, the true fans would be able to purchase them legitmately at a decent price like it is intended.  Scalpers ruin the experience by either buying out the tickets so that fans cant go, or driving up prices so that they are forced to spend ridiculous amounts of money.  That is ripping people off, and theres nothing ethical about it.  Its classless and unfair.  And Im puzzled as to how any so-called music fan can justify such greed and exploitation.

Another thing, please dont use that "Well, a true fan wouldve gotten the tickets on time" bullshit cop-out.  I attempted to tickets not 45 seconds after they went onsale online, and they were sold out.  And what about the fans who have work at 10 AM, or the kids who have school?  Now they miss out or get ripped off because of some greedy scumbag.  It really ruins what should be a good experience.  True fans can have the opportunity to enjoy a concert at a reasonable price, but its fucked-up by a few greedy people, with ultimately no interest in the product theyre buying.  And fans who get ripped-off once by buying the scalped tickets are at risk of getting ripped-off again the show is cancelled.  So not only could they get the refund they would originally get, but they lose all of that extra money spent because of the mark-up.

Those who bought from Ticketmaster arent getting a bargain, theyre getting the intended standard price from the official vendors.

Fucking yuppies... :confused:

I was fortunate to get VR tickets for the Philly show  after trying over 50 times on ticketmaster.com.  It looked like they let people buy 50 tickets at a time.  Minutes after the tickets were on sale, people immediatley sell them on EBAY.  It really isn't fair that someone in California with no intensions to see the show is hogging up all the tickets just to make money.  You can only hope people like that get burned and get stuck with not selling the tickets.

i've been called a fucker, an asshole, and a yuppie (no idea how that makes any sense) in one thread.

girlgunner - you're sadly mistaken if you think musicians raise prices because of scalpers. how does that make sense?? they set their prices ridiculously high to make as much money as possible. don't believe their BS reasons.

dizzy - your CD store scenario is a great one. basically, what you would have is CD store. how do you think every other music store started?


basically we can agree to disagree. i understand where you guys are coming from. i really do. several times i paid significantly more for tix i really wanted. i used to hate scalpers too. but instead of bitching about it, i started selling some tix to make some extra loot so i can break even.

I don't think most of those people selling are VR fans.

What happened to the idea of helping out fellow fans instead of making some money on them?

If you really need beer money that bad, maybe you should've stayed home with a couple of six packs?  :P



/jarmo

I've read plenty of articles on this subject. Obviously, these artists are trying to make money. They want it to go to them instead of the scalpers. If they see the fans are willing to pay $250 to scalpers, they will raise their prices to $250 so they make that money instead. As much as I hate it, I can't say I blame them. That money deserves to go to the people performing, not a bunch of leeches.

I read a really interesting article that explained that artists and sport franchises like to keep their ticket prices low because their events will appeal to everyone. However, rising prices begin to turn off the average fan because it appears as if these events are becoming for the wealthy instead. Which, in the end hurts everyone because it's the average fan who keeps the money flowing in.

So who exactly are scalpers helping besides theirself?

BULLSHIT.

There is a very distinct difference between buying ONE ticket and selling it for an inflated price and buying 100 tickets and selling them for inflated prices.  As I said twice before, if I bought every popular CD at the CD store and sold them for $50 apiece to people in the parking long, that WOULD make me an asshole who is RIPPING PEOPLE OFF.  Just because it is legal, and just because they don't have the "right" to buy CDs at a reasonable price, DOES NOT MEAN I AM NOT RIPPING THEM OFF!  And ripping people in ANY way off is unethical, LEGAL OR NOT!

And as a matter of fact, scalping is illegal in an indirect way.  Do you think that these big-time scalpers are paying ONE DIME of income taxes on the huge amounts of money they are making?  I doubt it very seriously.  And that is precisely why it is ludicrous and outrageous to compare them to legitimate businesses.

And that just goes to show that scalping isn't capitalism.  It's rapacious opportunism at its worst.


The issue isn't whether or not we have the "right" to buy tickets from ticketmaster.  Nobody here said a word about that.  The issue is whether or not scalpers are ripping people off, which they are.  But go ahead, keep defending them as they keep ripping people off.


Nobody has called you anything.  We're insulting avarice-driven scalpers.  If you took offense to the comments we made about scalpers, you must have a guilty conscience about what you do with extra tickets.


And YOU are sadly mistaken if you think artists LIKE scalpers.  You read what Duff said; he came out and said that he didn't want scalpers getting tickets before the fans.  Keep in mind that scalpers may not even be able to sell all the tickets that they buy, so that means that seats in the audience may be empty rather than having fans in them who wanted to buy them at face value.

If you took a consensus of bands, I guarantee you that the majority would not concur with scalping.  Duff McKagan is just one example.  They want their real fans in attendance without being ripped off.  They don't want leeches making huge amounts of cash off their names, which is what scalpers do.

As Jarmo said, the scalpers are not Velvet Revolver fans.  They don't give a golly goddamn about the real fans.  As I said, it is absolutely outrageous to insinuate that scalpers are doing the fans a good service by scalping.  They care about one thing: lining their pockets with cash.  They couldn't give a fuck less about VR or its fans, or any other band they leech off of.

If they want to make some "beer money", let them get themselves a real fucking job and EARN it instead of ripping people off.  That's what capitalism is.


Not by ripping people off.


Ah, so two wrongs make a right, is that the idea?

someone answer my questions please!!!!  :'(

 :)

They are on the previous page.

I saw your questions, badgirl, and I haven't answered them because I honestly don't know the answers.  Sorry.   :(

Who's a yuppie???? LOL   I understand the other side of the argument - but this is not it.  This is like complaining that IBM stock is too expensive because "everybody's been buying it up".  This makes no sense.  The basic principles of pricing in a free market system revolves around supply and demand.  If demand is very high and supply is static, prices will rise.  Period.  That is all that's happening here.  It's also why you see people like Madonna and Prince raising their ticket prices to make all the money themselves.  And check out how little some of their tix are going for on Ebay....  In fact, many VR tickets are going for less than face now (not in Philly - but in SF and KC)

Dizzy - you do have a few good points.  But a few points to make...

1) Buying 50 tickets is usually against the rules - and if it isn't - then that's the artist's fault.  Most shows (including VR) limit the # of tickets.  If some ticket broker is planting people in line trying to bend the rules, then THAT could possibly be unethical in my book.  But if I buy 6 tickets and use 2 and sell 4 for whatever they go for on Ebay, that's NOT.

2) The artists typically don't give a sh*t about the "real fans" coming to the show.  That's PR.  They just want a sell out, don't you think?

I do agree though that artists don't like scalpers.  The scalpers make all the money that the artist should have made if they priced their tickets right.  Of course, if they priced them too high - there are risks there too.... (see the NBA for example)

NO it isn't.  Inflation (the result of supply and demand) occurs when the retailers raise prices.  NOT when people buy their stuff and resell it at outraegous prices.  If the artists raised prices for tickets, you could write it off as supply and demand.  But they aren't in this case, the scalpers are doing it, so supply and demand is NOT what is occurring here.



Amen.  I am at work at 7:30 a.m. every weekday.  So I can't get online until I get home at 5:00 p.m.  So I don't "choose" not to get in line or online to but tickets at 10 a.m.  Some call it Bad luck?  I say fuck you.  If scalpers weren't buying tickets by the shitloads, there is a hell of a lot better chance of them being available by the time I got home.  I've never had a problem with that before.  I've bought tickets to many other shows hours and even days after they went onsale and still gotten decent seats.  Why?  Because there were ticket limits which largely prevented scalping.

That may be true, but it's irrelevant.  The artist's negligence does not justify scalping.


Yes it is.  You're taking four tickets away from people who could've had them at face value and making them pay thrice the amount if they want to go to the show.  And then you have the gall to state that you're doing them a good service by this!  You're ripping them off knowingly and with the flagrantly self-serving purpose of profiting from it yourself.  You're not providing any benefit to the buyers of those scalped tickets.  You are deliberately harming their chances of getting a ticket and at a decent price in the interest in your own selfish avarice.  That's the bottom line; you are harming them to benefit yourself.  And THAT is what makes it unethical.

And again, are you paying your income taxes on that dough you're raking in?  Yeah, didn't think so.  So you are breaking the law to boot.  Scalpers are commiting a crime even if scalping isn't illegal in their state.  Their crime is called TAX EVASION.  So that also makes it unethical.

And the two principles couple together makes it doubly unethical.


No I don't think.  Some artists may not give a shit about their fans, but I think the majority of them realize (especially the guys in VR) that the fans are the reasons why they are where they are.  So I do think the artists care that their fans are being ripped off, and Duff proved it for his band by saying what he said.

But this is another irrelevant argument, because the level of an artist's concern for his/her/their fans does not justify scalping.

Your tax evasion point is a solid one.....and is a big issue for quite a number of things sold on EBay really.  Any scalper who's not paying taxes is definitely doing something both illegal and unethical.

However - the first part of your argument is flawed.  I have never intended to imply that scalpers are do-gooders making tickets available.  

Also - and HERE IS THE BIG POINT -  I am not forcing anyone to buy my tickets for thrice the value.  In fact, every time I have sold tickets (only a handful of times by the way) I post them just below face value.  Then, the people bid them up to whatever.  Several times I've had tickets not even receive on bid and have had to relist them for 1/3 the value.  Other times, people bid them up to double the price.  Nobody HAS to buy my tickets.

If I were to offer my extra tickets at face value on EBay via "buy-it-now" with no bidding, then someone else would get them on a first-come first-served basis as well.  And if you were at work, you'd miss that too.

Look, there is nothing "fair" about a show like VR at the 9:30 Club.  The place holds 900 people and probably 15,000 want to go and would gladly pay $20 for the tickets.  If I go online with everyone else (like I did) and get 6 tickets, but don't use the extras it is assinine to think I have some type of ethical obligation to go on the HTGTH board or something and seek out a true fan who didn't get tickets and give them to him for face value.  I have a job too (a very stressful and busy one at that), and if I chose to take time away from my job and 3 small children to be online (either via the net, phone or in person) to get tickets, why SHOULDN'T I be able to sell them to someone who chose NOT to leave their job for an hour to try and score the tickets themselves.    Unfortunately, alot of times you can't even get your money back for the tickets (look at the SF VR shows on EBay) - only in RARE cases like VR, Jimmy Buffett, etc. can you make a real profit scalping.

I agree, it sucks when you DO go online and can't get tickets.  It's happened to me MANY MANY times.  And it sucks to think that people that don't like the band ate up all the tickets.  I completely agree.  But most people who buy tickets from scalpers are doing so because they A) don't want to fool with being in line or online B) didn't even realize tickets were already on sale or most likely C) they want to pay a little more money to get better seats.

I'm about done with this as it is going around and around.  Bottom line for me is this - I have NEVER missed a show or concert or sporting event that I wanted to see because of "scalpers".  I've gone online to buy tickets, waited in line overnight (for GNR/Metallica/FNM back in '92 ... ahhhhhh) and bought from scalpers - both at a discount and at a premium.  This whole thread has spawned from justifiably miffed people who waited online for VR tickets and were let down.  I understand that.  And I'm not saying that I LOVE Scalpers!!!!  All I'm saying is that it is NOT UNETHICAL.  Annoying, unfair, whatever - but no more unethical than $5 popcorn, $20 cheeseburgers at Disney World, or 300% jewelry markups.

marino - you're exactly right.

dizzy - i did take offense to those comments. but i don't feel the slightest bit guilty. as with any show, i buy alot of tix. i usually find enough friends to go, but when i do not, i throw the tix on e-bay so not to lose money. if people bid them up, that's on them.

there's alot of things in life that suck. one of them is scalpers. but man, you people really let the little things bother you.

badgirl - two tricks of the trade....

1. let's say tix go on sale at 10 am.....around 9:50, call an out of state ticketmaster where there are no hot tix going on sale (like bumblefuck, kentucky). get someone live and BS with them for a few mintues. then casually ask about the concert around 9:55. don't sound too interested but say you'll take the tix. when they tell you they're not on sale, ask them to put a hold on tix. 90% of the time they'll do it, and it's like being first in line.

2. talk to ticket brokers and build relationships with them. they have connections and get tix set aside. it sounds silly, but it works.

You're right, this discussion has become convoluted.  And I can tell you, you will NEVER convince me that people who deliberately purchase a plethora of tickets so that the public can't get them, and then resell them at triple the price is not unethical.  As I said, they are snatching face-value tickets from under the public's noses for one reason and one reason only, to benefit themselves.  They are deliberately, knowingly, and intentionally harming the public's chances at getting tickets at decent prices with the sole interest of fattening their pockets.  Intentionally harming others in any way to benefit yourself is unethical, pure and simple, even outside the tax evasion point.



It depends on your intentions.  If you intend to use 6 tickets and 4 people bow out, then I'd say it's acceptable to offer them for whatever price your customers are willing to pay.  But that is NOT the issue being debated here.  Scalpers do not care about the band and have NO intention of using all the tickets they purchase.  Their intent from the get-go is to make oodles of money by offering concert-goers tickets at a greatly inflated rate, tickets that they would've had a lot better chance to obtain were they not purchased by scalpers.

So tell me, did you intend to use all 6 tickets?  Because if you didn't, you would have no other reason to purchase them than to make money off of them.  I think your revelations that you have sold "extra tickets" on a few occasions speaks volumes.  You want to justify scalping because you don't want to admit any wrongdoing on your part even if you've only done it a few times.  And I also think that listing the tickets below face value is a cop out, because you know damn well that people are going to raise the bid price through the roof.  If you really want to offer them for less than face value, then why not give them a buy-it-now option so that the bid price will feasibly not be raised beyond face value.

And again, you can say that you're not FORCING them to bid, which is true, but the fact remains that if you hadn't bought extras to begin with, they wouldn't need to be bidding on them at all.  What brings me to....


That is irrelevant.  The fact that scalpers purchase copious amounts of tickets with the INTENTION of ripping people off is where the lack of ethics falls.

Well as I said, there's a difference between buying tickets with the intentions of USING them, and then having people bow out, and purchasing them with the deliberate and obvious intent of ripping people off, which is what I am protesting.  But when you resell any tickets you have for whatever reason, keep in mind your state's law on increasing prices beyond face value, which has already been brought to your attention.


A small issue to you could be a big issue to someone else, it's purely subjective.  And your opinion of the importance of this issue is entirely irrelevant anyhow.  You could apply that principle to any debate around here or anywhere else, including debates that you may get into from time to time.

dizzy  - i couldn't agree with you more. it's purely subjective. as is the debate regarding ticket brokers being unethical. it's subjective.

and you have the right to your opinion. for me, since it's recognized as a legal way to do business, i can't call it unethical. there's not even an abuse of the law, or a minor bending of the laws. but like i said, i see your point.

regarding what duff said.....i fucking love duff. and VR. love them. but talk is cheap. and duff is a business man. and he's a fraud. ticket limits are no minor issue. it's not something that slips through the cracks. so i believe he's lying.

here's why.....they aren't too sure how big the hype is gonna be. it would have been embarressing to play a small show in big cities and not sell the places out. so they PURPOSELY didn't set ticket limits to ensure sellouts. and not just sellouts, but FAST sellouts. so that every radio station can now talk about how VR sold out in under a minute.

That theory is an interesting and valid one, however, I don't think it applies to Duff.  While I admittedly don't know the man personally, I do know that if he's lying this time, he's been lying throughout his career.  If you read any interview with Duff, his affection for the fans really comes out.  So I don't think he would consciously consent to a no-limit system if he thought that the fans would be ripped off.  Duff has ALWAYS acted and spoken in a manner that shows he hasn't forgotten it's the fans who have put him where he is.

But I will concede to the validity of your theory, and I will also admit that I don't know for sure.