Here Today... Gone To Hell!

I think Axl was making a statement by ending UYI II with My World.

Matt Sorum recently stated in an interview that Axl was threatened by NIN.  It makes sense since Axl recruited Robin Finck away from NIN.

Matt Sorum also stated that Axl was trying to get him into Chemical Brothers.  That also makes sense when Axl pulled Buckethead into the band.

IMO, Axl had in mind exactly which direction he wanted to take the band during the UYI tour.  He knew the only way he could make GNR "his world" was to force the band into giving him the exclusive rights to the name.  He knew that the other members would not want to go hip-hop or techo.  He knew GNR as it had come to be known........was about to end.

The years following the UYI tour were already created by Axl.  Axl's world wanted it that way.  What Slash & Duff brought to the table was probably GNR.  IMO, Axl had no intention of accepting any of it.  Whether it was good rock or not.  Slash & Duff would never create anything close to hip-hop or techno.

So GNR as we knew them........had disbanded.  Axl embarked on his own journey safely hiding behind the name he purchased.  Would the record company have invested over 10 million dollars for Axl's experimental journey into a new musical realm?  He knew they wouldn't.

Fast forward to 2002.  Axl embarks on a tour that his heart was never into.  He needed the fans who had supported him to date to relate HIS new creation to the name Guns 'N' Roses.  He inserted a few new songs with all the old classics.


*******************************************************************
My question is to those who have been GNR fans since, at least, the UYI days is:

Should music representing Guns 'N' Roses remain rock 'n' roll based?  Or should Guns 'N' Roses complete it's place in music's history on the hip-hop/techno side?
*******************************************************************


My answer is NO.  If Axl wants to make hip-hop/techno, than he should do it on his own........not under the security blanket of the legendary/future rock 'n' roll hall of fame inductee called-----> Guns 'N' Roses.  Furthermore, I want Chinese Democracy to be AFD, UYI I & II sounding.....nothing even close to NIN or The Chemical Bros.


Edited to NOTE:  This has the potential to be a mature discussion and not a "who's better" old members or new members.  I'm not asking who's better.  I'm simply asking for intelligent opinions/arguements on what would be acceptable to us the fans who built this band up to where it stands today.

I will be very disappointed if the new cd sounds techno/rap or funky!

I hope Axl knows that we love the angry loud screaming and scratchy sound of GNR, we love the energy and the rage with the soft and gentle sound of Don't cry or estranged.

We want the aggressive and sarcastic sound that only he could sing with!

Axl please don't try to be like some other genre of music, you created your own!!!!

 :beer:

I have no idea what the album will sound like, but I am 100% positive it will NOT be Hip Hop and Techno! Come on......I believe it will sound like Gnr (mainly due to Axl's voice and melodies) mixed with more electronic layers of sound. Please read DAVID WILD'S review of the 12 songs he heard in Rolling Stone......no mention of HIP HOP or Techno. ::)

What's the connection between those two?  ???

I guess Axl was trying to get Matt to try new production things. Like sampling drum beats.....




What does that mean? No use of samples, synthesizers, loops etc? To me a song like Chinese Democracy is rock music....

I'd say yes, go ahead. It worked for U2, so why couln't it work for GN'R.

I think what U2 did with "Achtung Baby" was amazing.

You can always go back if it doesn't work out, but atleast you tried.


/jarmo

Mnay people have said that the album will not be what everyone thinks it gonan be. Brian May has called it close to great. Do you think he lieks rap or techno?

Cd will have elements from all genres and styles and be wrapped up in a very special gnr way.

Sigh

Everyone who is anybody in the GNR world has said the album is not rap/techno

Why does this still get mentioned?

If i could be bothered i would dig out the quotes that said CD sounds like Pink Floyd/Zepplin - GNR's old manager said 'Oh My God' was atypical of the album (atypical means not typical ::))

Does Madagascar/Blues/Chinese Democracy sound techno to u?

If you listen to Buckethead's Monsters & Robots....or...Somewhere over the Slaughterhouse....there's alot of similarities with The Chemical Bros.


That's fine as long as it wasn't "the closest thing" they had to rock.  If the few "new" songs they have played are the most rock tracks they have...i will be extremely dissappointed.


Yes, but it wasn't that far off from U2 prior.   GNR would be a far greater distance from it's origins.



What??  In another ten years??

Because there's not much to talk about these days and you, oh great one, have not created a thread sparking discussion about anything that hasn't already been discussed.


Too busy with other things huh?  I surely hope 'Oh My God' being atypical of the album has since changed.


No.  I do hope the rest of the album is on the side of rock as opposed to more techno/hip-hop.  Could the playing of those songs be the bridge between old-style GNR and whatever Axl is making now.

I guess the hip-hop look Axl unveiled is coincidental then huh?

And as far as those who have heard the material and have commented.......it's been years since then.  Is it still the same.  What's taking so long??

If is was so good, then it would've been on the market by now.

It's hard to answer this, because all the songs I've heard from new Gn'R sound like hard rock to me.  No, I would not like to see Guns N' Roses release a pure hip hop or techno album, but it's seems like a pointless question, because I haven't heard or read anything that makes me believe that will be the case.

If by hip hop/techno, you mean the type of hard rock (or whatever you want to call it) that we've heard in the new music, then the answer is yes.  I've heard everything I want from the new Gn'R songs - Good, hard rock.  Piano ballads.  And something new and interesting.

"Discotheque" or "Mofo" was almost the same as "Sunday Bloody Sunday" or "With Or Without You"? No it wasn't....




Why not, if that's what it takes then sure.

You seem a little upset about the whole time issue.  :P



/jarmo

OMG!  I just fell asleep after reading that one and woke up - wait what day is it?  did i sleep through the day? or 2?  wait-  Is chinese Democracy out yet??????  Could it be I slept til Sept/Oct?  

I dont think any of the songs we've heard would have killed the old members to do.  The little touches of "hip pop" and "techno" really seperates them from the 80's.  They are all still rock songs, just with some different flavors  Ya cant always stick to vanilla or chocolate.   Sometimes ya gotta have the coffee flava 2!  Which after a post like this I need!

K-Rock, atypical means NOT like the rest of the songs. In other words, OMG does not sound like the songs recorded for Chinese Dem. You seem hung up on the time issue as well. Just because it has not been released, it doesn't mean 1. The songs have substantially changed (Axl could just be making minor changes-could just be sitting on his ass doing nothing). 2. The fact that it is not released has NOTHING to do with the quality of the material and more to do with how fucked up Axl is-either insecurity or perfectionism or laziness. It is safe to infer that Axl has not even turned the record over to the record company yet. 1. That is why the GREATEST SHITS was released by the record label because Axl had not delivered CD.  and 2. Mysteron said that management was still deciding what to do with CD until the GH fiasco was over. PLEASE don't assume the material is no good because Axl won't let go...his instability should not be mixed with his talent.  :beer:

It shows huh??


I would not mind if the album is full of Mads, Blues, CD style music.  Most seem so sure it is.  If it comes out more NIN or even close to Chemical Bros, then I will be extremely disappointed.

At this point, are those new songs still on the record??  None of you know.  

Perhaps the 3 album process, if it still exists, is a slow transition to the styles of music I mentioned.  From where I sit, if that is the case, it will have tarnished what began in 1987.

I also like Jarmo's comparison with Achtung. Achtung is essentially classic U2 melodies mixed with new musical sounds and layers....really just as I see Maddie, CD, Blues and Rhiad-classic Gnr melody with new and different guitar sounds/synths. Silk and OMG are completely different.

oh my fucking lord!! im tired of reading GNR is becoming techno and Hip Hop... who really said that? WHO??? TELL ME!!

 :hihi:  Yes, I know........or at least I did know that.......and had forgotten (Thank you for the clarification)



I don't dispute the possibilities you've mentioned above.  Yes, the time thing makes me wonder.  Name another ten year project that turned out to be so wonderful.  

And if it's so great, why would he be so insecure about it.  

I've never doubted or spoke against Axl's talent.  I've always said that I'll buy and enjoy anything Axl does, even if it were country.

If it's represented as Guns 'N' Roses, leave the door open for a reunion and until then leave the legacy as it stands.  Unless, of course the forthcoming album rocks, then I, one fan, won't mind.  That's all.

And I'm not sold on mysteron.......I've been duped and will no longer buy into any "inside" info until an actual source is named.

My concern is not that the music will sound too techno.  I think CD will be brilliant.

But I'm very concerned about the reputation Axl is developing. Most people I talk to now days laugh when I even mention the name GNR.  I had always thought that the world would be silenced when they heard the new music.  But now I am beginning to think otherwise.  There seems to be such a hatred for the whole GNR circus, that I'm afraid people won't give it an honest chance.  

On top of that, Velvet Revolver seems to have gained an immediate respect.  And I 'm afraid that they may steal some of the old school GNR fans, complicating things further for Axl.

This is really just an observation of the feedback that I have encountered recently. So save the bashing.  

-F

K-Rock, Axl's insecurity and perception of himself and the music has NOTHING to do with how it physically sounds. He is a VERY damaged individual and it does not matter if everyone around him says it is the greatest album ever, if he doesn't like it, it won't be released. He is insecure regardless of his music. It is his personality.

I agree with you that he is damaged and likley looking for a resoltution to, or healing from, the damage.

Is it possible that the insecurities/damage is leading him and GNR in a different direction??

Like Dee Snider once said, "I Wanna Rock".  Will Axl say, "Let's hit the dance floor".

Yes, he's gonna go on tour with Moby. They'll play raves in Europe and they'll get a reunited 2 Unlimited to open for them.  Or maybe Scooter.... :hihi:



/jarmo

LMAO!

jarmo's on form today!

As far as all this nonsense about Axl working on techno music..is it too much to ask for ONE PIECE of evidence to support this?

OMG was an experimental song and people read too much into it - and if thats techno than lets hope Axl's doing some more, OMG rocks.

Yes, Izzy,  : ok:and I absolutely love Chinese democracy R?n?B, OMG. When I first heard Chinese democracy I felt like all my cells moving. That why I'm here.

Maybe we have completely different tastes. :-\

As for techno-hip, I second /third Jarmo. I also think he was gathering ingredients. You may hate celery but in some cuisine, it does magic.

I say GNR should be anything Axl wants it to be. But I assure you, hip hop and dance won't be on the agenda. Times change and music changes, Axl just wants to evolve, and that's what GNR should do...

Does anyone else see an irony in Axl not wanting to play rock Slash's way...and then promptly unveiling a song called 'The Blues' which is played a half step down and has a Slash-a-like solo...

How stupid is that?!  :rofl:

Indeed I could easily imagine Slash doing the solo on "The Blues."  Personally, I would prefer to see Axl make a pure rock record without all the bells and whistles.  "Oh My God" was an industrial/techno song, plain and simple, and I believe there would be an angry backlash from rock listeners if a whole album was released full of songs like that one.  Besides, the '90s are over and people want to rock again.  The original sound of Guns N'Roses is timeless and will never sound dated.  Stuff like "The Blues" and "Chinese Democracy" are perfectly acceptable by these standards.  I think it possible for Axl to update his sound a bit while staying within the rock n'roll parameters and not resorting to anything techno/hip-hop, and those two songs I mentioned are reasonable progressions of the GNR sound.  It will never be quite the same without The Master, though.

Thats another misconception. This isnt a 10 yr project. The current lineup has been working solidly on the material since about 98/99. Then when bucket came did even more. Now you do the math. Thats 5-6 yrs.

Gnr from 94- 98 were a lost bunch. Lawsuits, band diffferences and then band member quitting. 94-98 are lost years that no1 is responsible for.

The tclock started in 98/99. It is now 2004. ALthough 5 yrs is a long time its not an absurd amount. Plus they have been working on 3 albums. And this the anticipation and expectations might have something to do with it.

Put that in the mix and there are your answers.
The time and the content of the material are the 2 biggest gnr misconceptions. Completely false. ALong with the hired guns shit but thats for another thread.

Or i could turn around and say, Doesnt slash look like an idiot when he continually says how he left because axl was on a techno craze when its clearly not the case.

im sick n tired of this axl vs slash bullshit. its gay and pointless. its very simple....they both have different musical directions and philosophies. neither is right or wrong. What will justify eachs musical descisions is the music they make.

Contraband is almost upn us and when cd sees the light of day we can judge it and then see which member could justify there descision

Axl threatened by NIN my ass, NIN barely became popular they or are a more of an underground thing.

Younggunner, there is clear and uncontrovertible evidence that Guns N' Roses, the band-brand name-entity, has been trying to make a record (a followup to UYI), SINCE 1994!!! The SLash and Duff recording years of 94, 95, 96 and then the rest. The lineup changes are irrelevant at this point so shut the fuck up. Duff leaving is no different  than Bucket or Tobias or Freese or Slash or Matt or anyone else for that matter. What are the two constants in the "Gnr" brand name over the past ten years? AXL ROSE and NO FUCKING RECORD. IT HAS BEEN TEN FUCKING YEARS AND STILL NOTHING. Please open your eyes just a little, get a grip with reality, and quit saying the same thing over and over and over again.  ::)

 ???

Were you not around in '94, '95?  "Closer" was a huge hit that was not only a crossover smash, but has become an MTV/rock radio classic.  For awhile, NIN ruled MTV and industrial seemed like the next best thing, spawning hits from Filter, Gravity Kills and eventually Marilyn Manson (who also became huge thanks in part to Reznor/NIN).

The Fragile debuted at #1 in 1999.  Hell of a feat for an "underground thnig".

I agree. But during that time the band was soiled in lawsuits, egos, and musical differences and directions. If they were to release a new record it would have been in 96/97. Once again that it lost time.

Are you kidding me? How are they irrelevant and how can you compare it to the new lineup changes?
GNr were the biggest band in the world. You just dont pick up the pieces liek nothing has happened and make another album when an original great band quits.

Tobias was never intented to be apart of the new lineup so you can exclude him.

Once duff and slash left, and axl decided to keep the name he had to find a new band that can serve justice to the past. That process began in 98/99. The lineup finally rounded out in 2000. You can deny those facts all you want but thats the truth.

94-97/98 were lost years. case closed.

no its been 6 yrs. hard work and not giving a fuck what peopel  think will give us 3 albums. And theres a very good chance those 3 albums will justify the time and justify the past.

Now you know how i feel. Tell all the pussies aroud here to stop bringing up the same old shit and i wont hit everyone up with reality.
The truth is in all the magazine articles on this very site from 94 on. Read them and you will understand the whole gnr situation. Till then i refuse to let rumors, the internet, aging clueless fans and their conspiracies and theories paint a false picture.

NIn was extremly popular. to say otheriwse, then you arent telling it liek it is.

but in no way was axl threatened by them. He loved nin, white zombie and all those type of bands even before they became big. Didnt nin even open for gnr?

Whoever brought up the notion that axl was threatend by nin or industrail music is an idiot

Rose: I originally wanted to make a traditional record or try to get back to an "Appetite [For Destruction]" thing or something, because that would have been a lot easier for me to do. I was involved in a lot of lawsuits for Guns N' Roses and in my own personal life, so I didn't have a lot of time to try and develop a new style or re-invent myself, so I was hoping to write a traditional thing, but I was not really allowed to do that.

Rose: No, and I don't want to be in a situation again where I have to depend on other people and have [to] start all over. So we have material that we think is too advanced for old Guns fans to hear right now and they would completely hate, because we were exploring the use of computers [along with] everybody really playing their ass off and combining that, but trying to push the envelope a bit. It's like, "Hmm, I have to push the envelope a little too far. We'll wait on that." So we got a list of things.

(...)There is a distinct difference in sound. The second leans probably a little more to aggressive electronica with full guitars, where the first one is definitely more guitar-based.

Loder: Have you actually brought in any hip-hop guys to sort of, like, examine the roots of the rhythm now? Has Dr. Dre stopped by or anything?

Rose: No, we haven't done anything like that. It's been thought of, but it's kind of [like] we would really be wasting somebody else's time, as we're trying to figure out how to develop this ourselves. Maybe if it were to get closer to, say, mastering or mixing, maybe there could be something someone else could add to it.

1999

I think he just knew that in that time period (91-94), that their brand of traditional rock was scoffed at, by the music media.  The whole Seattle thing, Cobain bashing them, industrial/techo becoming popular, it was the age of irony and Axl, wearing his sentimentality on his sleeve was snickered at.  I mean they were still hugely popular, but Axl wasn't considered "cool" anymore at that time.

It's funny though, when he went away, people always did and still do want him back.  

Younggunner....Matt Sorum recently stated that Axl was threatened by NIN, but obviously he is an idiot, and you know Axl better than Matt does. And your lost years theory is ignorant...back in 1996, the band stated that an album was almost done, and that they would be touring the following summer. I wouldnt call that "lost". Get a grip.

Um, explainm to me how Axl felt threatened by nin? Please expalin that to me. He fukin supported taht group before it even became big. He was into that whole industrial stuff when it first came out. He even played nin to Lars and told Lars they are gonna be huge.

Influenced and threatened are two differrent things.

Um ok, but they didnt, then slash and duff quit how is that axls fault for not releasing material when the old guys were still here? The band had problems from 94-98. Its not ignorance its facts. Lawsuits,egos,differences in musical philosophies, and then band members quitting. ALl lost years my friend.

Guns 'N' Roses??  Aggressive electronica??  

It just isn't Guns and only those who were deep into music in 1987 know what I mean.

Guns hit the scene when I was into thrash (Slash, Metallica, Celtic Frost, Motorhead, Venom, Megadeth, Anthrax....I could go on & on).  It was either that or heavy metal which was hair bands.

I was ready to ease up a bit on the thrash cuz all I wanted to do was fight, break-shit and rebel against everything whenever I was listening to it.

And the hair band shit was too soft for me.  My friend showed me the GNR album and said it was something new.  I didn't believe him.  I thought same chord-based glam rock jst differnet hair band.  I saw a picture of Axl's teased out hair and thought........."here we go again" (haha Whitesnake).

He put it in........WTTJ came on and I was never the same.  I became such an Axl fan and made it known so much so that all those around me (family, friends, co-workers) would think of me when they heard GNR or Axl's name mentioned.

Maybe I should not have used hip-hop in the beginning of this thread.  I should have just mentioned techno as a possible direction Axl intends on taking GNR.  

For me GNR should go back to AFD style rock instead of heading the other way from UYI I & II.

AFD ---------> UYI I & II
AFD <--------  UYI I & II

And for those who think they know Axl so well, I find you comical.  Nobody knows what's going on with Axl these days.  And whatever words of his that are printed are unreliable IMO.  

i dont understand axl

u are the biggest rock star on the planet, u have the most successful and most talented band and u are worried bout fad bands like NIN's and chemical brothers

it doesnt make sense to me how someone as confident as axl can be so insecure when it comes to music

thats his problem now being insecure

doesnt he realize how awesome GNR were?

i honestly think he has no idea how great GNR were and thats scary

My god a couple of hit songs, why would axl be threatened by that, for a band who had 8 hit songs, sellout world tours and changed an era of music, axl had nothing to be threatened from.

I'm all for evolving mucically - hell, it paid dividens with UYI and i love OMG, an album like that wouldn't be so awful

However Axl being afraid of the electonic noise that Trent Reznor spews out? Give me a break - he's eccentric not insane. The 'hits' NIN have had wouldn't frighten fuckin' Will Young.......

Y the fuck is Axl touring wiv fucking Moby?They have totally different types of music and there is no way that Guns and Roses fans will like a dick head like Moby's music......

Please, stop with this b/s. Axl likes hip-hop and techno but it doesn't mean that he'll put these kind of music in CD. He likes Fiona Apple too, so we can expect that he'll sing like "i've been a bad, bad boy...", huh?
I guess Axl is trying to mix some textures, like Primal Scream did. Just because you put some keyboards and synths it doesn't qualify as techno or hip-hop. I mean, Silk Worms is not like Chemical Brothers or 50 Cent. Rhiad is not like Moby or Eminem. In fact, Rhiad is a hard rock song with a lil' bit of industrial, but even less than Oh My God.
Axl still likes old fashion music, he didn't forgot Queen and Led Zeppelin.

The b/s as you so deem it was 3 pages back by now but since you felt the need to unearth this thread it and bump it back up to the top page........you would be the one keeping the "b/s" alive.




Ohhh myyy goddd.....like, no way.........another close friend of Axl right here on this very board who, like, knows what Axl STILL likes.

 ::)

Whatever Axl had intended for Guns to sound back in mid 90's has faded away, I mean whats the point to release an Industrial Rock album now when that type of music doesnt cut it now. People do want to rock so he must have tweaked the album back to rock or I hope so anyway.
Talking about working on 3 albums just sound so comical when he hasnt released 1 in 10 years... common people we know better.  :smoking:

Good to see you care about my post. Let me put something clear:
1) Shut up. I just put my opinion, as you did.



2) Guess what? You're a close friend of Axl too! Don't you remember me?



3) Instead, you tried to be funny with some quotes and just forgot to discuss my opinion/argument. Do you really think that Axl doesn't care about Queen anymore, even when he tried to bring Brain May to the band back in 1999/2000? Yeah, sure, Axl must enjoy only Nelly and Tupac...   ::)