Here Today... Gone To Hell!

Food for thought:

I've always been amused out how people either love Axl or really hate Axl. Then I realized that based on his actions or what was written about him, you can get two different pictures of him. Most GNR fans think he was a badass rock n' roller while most who dislike him view him as a neurotic pansy. I've decided to list the impressions (real or not) of Axl that make people either love him or hate him.

ROCK N' ROLL
Biker image with shades, tattoos, bandana, etc.

NOT ROCK N' ROLL
Bicycle shorts, plastic surgery

ROCK N' ROLL
Not caring what others think, releasing your new album on your own terms. Going on stage when you damn well please.

NOT ROCK N' ROLL
Caring TOO much what others think and being so insecure that you don't have the guts to release your new album. Not going on stage until your insecurities subside.

ROCK N' ROLL
Blues-based rock mixed with punk.

NOT ROCK N' ROLL
Overproduced techno music with NIN synthesizer influence.

ROCK N' ROLL
Excess in the form of drugs, alcohol, and women.

NOT ROCK N' ROLL
Excess in the forms of horn players, overproduced double-album with Elton John ballads (definitely not my opinion, but some think so), seperate plane/bus from the rest of the band, presidential security, masseuse, etc.

ROCK N' ROLL
Going to jail.

NOT ROCK N' ROLL
Going to therapy/psychics.

Thoughts?

NOT ROCK N' ROLL
Overproduced techno music with NIN synthesizer influence.

I'm gonna disagree and say that NIN/industrial is just rock music modernized. Besides, there has been only two fairly-techno induced songs, but neither was "over-produced". I wish that word was banned on this forum...

NOT ROCK N ROLL
Discussing if someone is rnr or not

 :peace:

No. Axl is hair gangsta emo rap metal

Agreed.  This is just a manifestation of Axl's bipolar disease.  He has always had a very hard time defining who he is, and the sudden fame and fortune only exacerbated this.  Slash is the exact opposite.  He hasn't really changed a lick in over 20 years.  He knows exactly who he is, and that's a badass - but really very kind and genuine beneath the rough exterior - rock n'roller.  This man?s unwavering dedication to the music he loves is part of what makes me respect him so damn much.  In my eyes, Slash was the heart and soul of Guns N?Roses, and there can never be a true GNR without him.  I wish Axl would realize this, but he?s incapable of doing so.  He lacks appreciation and respect for everything Slash and the others did for him and the fans of the band.  Simply put, while the whole world (or most of it) was laughing at Axl?s crazy antics, they respected the hell out of this band at the same time for the integrity Slash, Izzy, et al brought into the mix.  Sure, none of them were angels, I?m well aware of that.  But none of them ever beat up fans or made truly stupid comments to the press, or any number of the dumb things Axl has done to ruin GNR?s credibility.  In defense of Axl, I?m really not sure if he ever realized just how foolish he was acting.  The others had problems with drugs and alcohol, but so do millions of ordinary Americans.  It?s wrong to judge them based on that, and I don?t really want to judge Axl for his behavior, either.  But he could have controlled it if he had tried hard enough to seek help.  In the end, he ended up hurting so many more people with his behavior than the others ever did with their addictions.  And the others have largely overcome their demons, while Axl has not.


Dead on here.  Axl cares only too much what others think.  The only plausible explanation as to why this Chinese Democracy hasn't been released already is his insecurity with the material and himself.  I seriously doubt it really has much to do with making the record on his own terms; he's just afraid of any criticism whatsoever and therefore is trying in vain to make a record that everybody will love; an impossible task if there ever was one.  There are people out there who think Sgt. Pepper's is a piece of crap, for God's sakes.  I'm not one of them, but it just goes to show that not everyone is going to be pleased with the end product. I also think that if it weren't for the debacle that was the 2002 tour, the album possibly could have been released by now.  Having a family member who is severely bipolar, I can gain a little bit of insight as to how Axl probably thinks.  I'm not saying I do know exactly what he's thinking - none of us do - but I have a good suspicion the man is deeply scarred by that experience, even if he brought a lot of it upon himself.  People with bipolar can't control their actions, after all.  At least not without proper medication and counseling.  Going on stage whenever he damn well pleased hurt GNR?s credibility enormously back in the day.  Axl could not possibly have realized this, for he did it again in 2002, and this time if led to the cancellation of the whole tour.  He?s going to have a damn hard time getting booked anywhere if he ever wants to tour again.  After what happened in Vancouver and Philadelphia, what promoter is going to want to take a chance on him?  I actually feel sort of bad for the guy, but then again, I don't.  He has plenty of resources to get himself some help, and he absolutely should have somebody managing his affairs.  Instead, he appears to take on that role himself and it's been nothing but a disaster.  Surrounding himself with mindless yes-men does not help in the least.  He needs someone to kick him in the rear and get him on the right track.

That is true to some extent.  We know going by the few heard CD songs that a couple of them have clear industrial influences.  "Oh My God" is industrial, bar none, while "SilkWorms" also has an electronic feel to it.  There are drum loops during parts of "Madagascar," although I?d hesitate to call it electronic in any real way.  On the other hand, "The Blues" is very much a real Illusions-era sort of power ballad.  I could picture Slash playing the solo on that one.  Truly a brilliant piece of music.   "Chinese Democracy" is a straight-ahead rocker.  So, there's going to be a wide variety of music on this record.  Of course, with the exception of "Oh My God," we haven't heard the studio versions yet.  They could end up being quite different from what was played in concert.  I like all of these songs - aside from "SilkWorms" - but I think Axl and a lot of you here are fooling yourselves if you think the general public will want to hear anything with the "Guns N' Roses" label on it sounding even remotely like Nine Inch Nails.  "Oh My God," which was hoped to be a huge radio hit, was widely rejected by listeners for this very reason.  People have a clear idea of what they feel GNR should sound like.  Unless your name is David Bowie or Madonna, very few artists can get away with drastic changes in sound.  And even those two names I mentioned haven't always been successful following this course.


I don't think I agree with much of this, although this is certainly a widespread perception of how GNR changed between Appetite and the Illusions.  It?s not cool that Axl feels so high-and-mighty that he can?t tour with his band.  Excessive use of drugs and alcohol, and abuse of women, is not cool, either.  Members of GNR learned this the hard way.  This sort of lifestyle may be "rock n'roll? in some regard, but it was this whole sort of thing that led to a backlash against GNR's style of rock during the 1990's and more toward the p.c., less excessive grunge of Nirvana, Pearl Jam, et al.  Personally, I think the horns added quite nicely to performances of "Move to the City" on the Illusions tour, but I can also see why some GNR fans weren't happy about it.  This all goes back to what I was saying about changes in style not usually being successful for any given artist.  The fanbase has a specific idea - in this case, Appetite For Destruction  - of what their heroes should sound like.  The stuff about Elton John ballads is pure crap, something spiteful critics spewed out.  Sure, there was an admitted Elton-influence, and we all know Elton performed with Axl and the band in ?92, but Elton could never have written "November Rain" or "Estranged."  It was Slash who added the extra punch to those songs, arguably the two finest performances of his career.  Without Slash's input, perhaps they would have been more in the vein of an Elton hit, but critics and others who said that stuff were not listening that closely, nor did they want to.  GNR had many dimensions to their music, but everyone of their tunes were deeply rooted in a blues-based, punk-infected grounding.  This is the common thread that binds two seemingly disparate songs like ?Welcome to the Jungle? and ?November Rain.?  It truly was Slash and Izzy who made that possible.  That common thread is definitely not the case with something like "Oh My God.?  It is too drastic a deviation for most listeners to accept.


Well, going to jail is not cool.  Axl did some really stupid things and deserved what he got.  He's not above the law.  And the man clearly needs to go to therapy.  I think it's simply wrong if anybody judges him for that.  It doesn?t seem as though Axl tried hard enough to better himself, even if he did make attempts at times.

I, for one, will never question Axl's rock n'roll credentials.  Guns N' Roses were always the ULTIMATE rock n'roll band.  But it was never Axl who the most rock n'roll of the GNR members.  Slash, Izzy, and Duff, from day one, were the real fucking thing.  They were unique characters and there will never be any other like them.  There?s only one Axl Rose, too.  Axl was all over the place in his personality and character, trying to be all things to all people.  This hasn't changed.  It's sad, really, that Axl has to suffer with a personality disorder like this, but he's got to do something to help himself.  He is very much ?Rock N? Roll,? for better or worse.

Axl isn't rock n roll

agreed

Axl Is Fuckin' Rock N' Roll, Man!

You Are Fucking Against Axl..

He WAS.

Let me sum it up to you with one word: AGE

This is a very tough buisness and you are destined to lose the battle. Look at all the male rock pin-up's how they look now...

They said it themself: youth is taking over and coming to stay

I don't see much difference in the blatent cool level of guys like Slash, Duff, Izzy, Gilby, Joe Perry and Steven Tyler...do you?

To me Axl is Rock n' roll . Listing everything as you have makes Rock n' roll seem calculated - with a gang like mentality.  Where i would argue that GNR's appeal was that they did what they wanted, dressed the way they wanted and weren't going to be told what to do.

You see the best people in Rock - to me but i think on the whole many agree.  From Sabbath to Zepplin, Bowie to Queen, Sex Pistols to GN'R,  they are all really quite different from each other.

Very different approaches, what they do share however, is the quality in their creativity, the songwriting  and the stage presence.  Not afraid to go out there and be different.

Despite our frustration for us as fans Axl is a true artist like those i have mentioned.  He is not just a singer of a band, there's something else to it, which you can't fake and people have tried so hard to immotate.  

The fact that he was the biggest star on the planet, then just vanished for a good ten years, is because he chose to.  Many people would have been forgotten about by that time many bands came and went.    

The greatest hits prove that even without some fans who were against it (although i'd be interested to see hwo many of those gave in lol)  GNR can still sell loads and that's not by accident.

The fact is Axl Rose never gave a fuck and the difference between him and the fakers is that he really doesn't.  He won't do something if he doesn't want to.  He stays in charge.  As ego-centric as that is - its the way it is.

So critics are "laughing at him". Big deal!? They are filling their magazines every couple of years, full of articles about him because they know people will buy it.  People care because he is such an artist and magnetic personality.    

When you see him on stage he is just the essence of Rock n roll.

I would also argue with your comment on UYI's being over produced and not rock n roll.  Infact i would say it was as/ if not more rock n' roll, because it's a progression, it's not staying safe as many bands do.
From The spiralling opening riff of "Right next door to hell" To the innovative, nasty- purposley there to confuse and get up the noses - My World.  

It's a full on rollercoaster of a ride.  Yeh somethings worked better live, but that's the same for many artists.
 
And when you read old inteviews you can see it's what he had in mind from the start and had the balls to make it real.  He and the others must have talked about that progression alot.  When you watch and read old interviews you can see him already planning Illusions in his mind even before Appetite.
   
Anyway that's all i have to say for now.  But for me Rock n' roll is not about having  Long hair, a tattoo and les pauls. The Darkness prove how bad that can be lol  

 There's so much more to it than that. It's having the balls to be real and do what you want to no matter how many records sell and no matter how many fans you gain and lose and re-gain on the way. That's the true essence of an artist. : ok:

Or nikkki sixx, traci guns, kirk hammet etc

but look at vince neil, bon jovi, david lee roth, (axl?) izzy\steven and a lot of them man.

If you wanna now what fat, burntout, uncool and weak is all you have to do is look at the rio3 video. But at the vma's he is looking more leaned out and way cooler than that. But i say he was rocknroll. If you are into comparing at all you can look at the you could be mine video and the look at the latest axl-in-action shots...
he is not what he used to be but still; he has come out of it in a good way.
imo :)

Er...Elvis Pressley was always described (and still is) as 'rock n' roll'

If he's rock then Axl is rock for sure.

You made some good points. A big part of what I consider rock n' roll is just being yourself despite what others may think. But I don't think that's all there is to it, I think it's an intangible quality that everybody interprets differently. Look at how many fans prefer the Appetite era of GNR than the UYI era of GNR. Almost all of the things I wrote in my post were opinions that Ive had of Axl at various times. One day I'll be listening to AFD and go "Damn, this guy is awesome!". Another moment I'll watch the UYI tokyo shows or read an interview where Axl talks about all these vitamins he's taking and just be like "Damn, what happened to this guy?". I know in the end it's all about the music... wait, the guy hasn't released new music in over 10 years haha

;D

Discuss what is rock n roll or not is a stupid shit... when you discuss things like this seems you don?t really know what means rock n roll...

Be rock n roll or not a like a pop discussion

why labalize people?

i say axl is Axl Rose... no other.... :yes:

I say Axl is pure rocknroll but much better.
He`s an artist
Whats that shit you talk about drugs and jail?
He runs 5 miles every two days now.
He is smart
Is this an guns n roses board or what?
What do you do here if you dont like him?

He`s clothes are the best

Im not gonna join a messegeboard any more
because Im a true fan of Axl Rose.
I dont want to be in place where they critizize him
bye all nice people.
not the other s..heads

You must be new. Axl Rose is this web board's favorite punching bag. Kurt Cobain gets more respect than Axl here. Say anything even remotely negative about Cobain, and at least two people immediately jump on you. Meanwhile Axl gets savaged for all sorts of lame crap like the pants he wears and other bullshit like that. Whatever. I thought the biker shorts were cool too.

Ha!!! That made me laugh soo hard! Totally true,though!

Axl is Rock N' Roll bacause of the music he writes and plays. Everything else is just pure detail. If you care so much about image,go to a fuckin N Sync or Britney forum

P.S.   I love his "working man punk-rocker dinner outfit"  :) :)

Axl WAS Rock n?Roll now he is  Not Rock n?Roll.He is always going out with baggy pants and t-shirts woch are at least 3 or 4 sizes bigger than himself, and his music isn?t blues oriented music anymore.
200 post hell yeah!!!!!!

W. Axl Rose is the most mysterious and greatest rock legend alive, or dead for that matter!

Axl Rose is alot bigger than Guns N' Roses even!

The list of front-men that are "rock n' roll" is very small, and it includes the likes of Mick Jagger, Steven Tyler, and Axl Rose is at the top of the list. He was what a rock star should be: outrageous, spontaneous, talented, charismatic, and an ass-kicker. Axl was all of those to the max, and he still is. Even when he's not out in the public eye, he still owns 95% of the musicians out today.

Remember though, when the band was touring during the AFD days, Axl got his own bus.  I don't think it's a "high and mighty" thing, but part of his personality problems, they affected him and the band even back then.

i dont like labeling axl

he is more than rock n roll cause he is diverse

HE IS ROCK N' ROLL!
Rock needs Axl now!
And I mean NOW Mr Rose!!!  :beer:

he was when he was younger ...but not no more :no:

that's the only point among all of them I agree with.

I think there's a point in every rock star's career when they make an ass out of themselves trying to be something they're not. The reason I hate the 80's is because bands cared about their image more than the music, like poison , bon Jovi or cinderella. But Guns n' Roses killed that (although the  nineties sucked too), he's an asshole but Axl is straight up , in your face, fuck you style Rock n' Roll! :peace:

I call it the way I hear it, he sounds like one bad ass muther fucker and if that ain't rock n roll you better get off the crack and stop the wackin. So yes, Axl is rock n roll, no matter how he's dressed etc... I just don't understand what the hold up is all about... sad thing is not one person on this board actually knows Axl.  So here we sit waiting like good little boys and girls.

He definitely was, but now hes dressing like a rapper and trying to be something betweem elton john and god, not so rock. on the other hand izzy stradlin is rock.

Yeah hes Rock n' Roll. He's spent the last 14 years doing his own thing to his own deadlines, making the album he wants to make, sticking two fingers up at the music industry and the press and just generally not giving a shit about anything.... while also getting sued by ex band members, a huge corporation and probably numerous other parties that we dont know about. Oh and occasionally he resurfaces to actually perform something infront of people. If thats not Rock n' Roll then i dont know what is.

Jonx

What do you mean now? We haven't seen him in almost 3 years.

nobody's is more rock n roll than Axl.he's the best,he will return and one more time he will be the king...

Some good points made in this thread.

Axl (especially 87-90) was a rock god of the highest order.
Illusions tour he was still a rock god, but a bloated one in some ways and he did some very 'un-rock n roll" stuff (costume changes, tele-prompters, different (and weird) attire, syrupy ballads etc..)
But to say that he aint rock n' roll is to pay to disrespect to the rock gods who smiled upon him.

Slash is so rock n' roll he couldn't be anything else if he tryed, and Izzy is the very definition of rock n roll cool - the living, breathing embodiement in fact.

I think he's a little bit country!

yeah I agree, theres a little country in him alright
he does come from a small town

Got to agree with DIZA here... Why the hell even bother asking if Axl is Rock n roll or not? He plays in a Rock n roll band!! I guess that says it all! Please!