Here Today... Gone To Hell!

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March 15, 2004 11:14 AM US Eastern Timezone

Guns N' Roses Files Lawsuit

NEW YORK--(BUSINESS WIRE)--March 15, 2004--GUNS N' ROSES have filed a lawsuit against Geffen Records, a division of UMG Recordings, Inc., to stop the unauthorized release of a Greatest Hits package by the band. The lawsuit seeks a temporary restraining order and preliminary injunction against this unauthorized release and was filed in U.S. District Court in Los Angeles.


The band has not been given the opportunity to approve the choice of songs, the artwork, the release date or the re-mastering done on the tracks included on this compilation. GUNS N' ROSES have sold over 80,000,000 albums worldwide - almost 40,000,000 in the US alone - and founding member W. Axl Rose is concerned that not only will their audience be misled into believing that the planned compilation is an authorized release, but that it will hinder the release of the band's long awaited new studio album CHINESE DEMOCRACY. There has been a massive outcry among the band's loyal audience against the Greatest Hits record, as they too believe the track selection is fundamentally flawed, does not reflect the band's best work and is clearly not the ultimate package that would be selected by the band or their fan base if they were given the opportunity. They have flooded the offices of Geffen Records' senior executives with thousands of emails over the last few weeks expressing their dissent.

W. Axl Rose is joined by former band members Slash and Duff McKagan in bringing the action against Geffen Records.
 
Contacts  
 
   
Sanctuary Records
Katy Krassner, 212-599-2757

Wow, that's pretty serious.

The band is against it while Geffen is promoting the release quite heavily. At least more than the band approved release Live Era in 1999.



/jarmo

Well, that's that. I am not now nor ever going to be purchasing this disk. With the remastering rumor, I was on the fence but, now they can go fuck themselves.

Interesting, how Axl is concerned that this piece of shit could "hinder" the release of Chinese Democracy. That is actually kind of funny. Maybe 'cause its so sad. Ahh fuck it.

What a fiasco.....I would have to believe the end is near for Axl and Geffen. Not good for the release of Chinese. :o :o

Wow...  "is joined by former band members Slash and Duff McKagan".

So, is this providing proof that the songs ARE remasterd? i.e, "The band has not been given the opportunity to approve the ... re-mastering done on the tracks included...".

AA.

"W. Axl Rose is joined by former band members Slash and Duff McKagan in bringing the action against Geffen Records."

what does that mean is slash and duff against it to,is axl and slash talking,

"but that it will hinder the release of the band's long awaited new studio album CHINESE DEMOCRACY."
Does this mean axl was ready to release the album

Damn record company

Well I doubt nothing will happen I've got the greatest hits I live in the UK just still gotta wait for the real thing but I think its cool that Axl will be reunited they could make some peace.

 Still this bit is wonderful. :D

I am suprised Izzy did not join in....he is somewhere right now just laughing his ass off.  ;D

"W. Axl Rose is joined by former band members Slash and Duff McKagan in bringing the action against Geffen Records."

OH ... MY ... GOD.

who will be the first?!

humm... well... me then:

"A REUUUNNNIIIOOONNNNN??!?!?!!"  :hihi:

i bought the Greatest Hits album 20 minutes ago, and now i have to read this.....i just don?t know what i should feel.... happy or angry...

i wonder what axl would think if the GH album sells pretty good.....!??

anyway i just hope CD will come out as soon as possible (maybe summer!????) and the new GNR will be together for many years....

Fuckin BRILLIANT!! Go Gunners!! : ok:

Axl, Slash and Duff together in that lawsuit, THAT means something. That fuckin GH CD must be complete crap!

 :o

Aah, I see you've got the press release  : ok:

They're all against it, but I wouldn't say they're talking for sure. Their lawyers might be talking.....


/jarmo

To put a positive spin on things....management is now confirming that they plan to release "the new studio album"...in other words, sounds like it is formally done.  :P

Laywers and Managers i'm guessing.

This just might be THE END of GNR...

AXL vs. Geffen= No money for the new record/tour.

There is no way that Geffen will release CD untill AXl draws the lawsuite...

I can see it... CD-> canceled
                      Tour-> canceled
                      Axl-> Hides for the rest of his life in "Porvoo"

Its over???

I was thinking about that a while back... What do the other band members have to say about this?

Not too pleased with it either. Well done I say.

sooo, they finally found something they agree about! ;D
seriously, I got goosebumps reading that sentence... :drool: :D

so that means that the album will (?) be out before RIR4 ... couse RIR 4 IS 2 MONTHS ahead today... and this GH will hinder the release of CD?

 :no:I hope not. I love both new bands.

hmm, Seems like the former members still care about the Gn'R name. But what will happen when Axl Releases CD? What will Slash's and Duff's reaction be? Also a lawsuit?

"The best way to make something popular is to ban it."

I don't know, maybe I'm just a cynical MF'r, but this looks like a publicity stunt. As someone already mentioned, alot of people who normally wouldn't have purchased this release will now buy it to have it in case it does get pulled from the shelves.

I know we have been hearing about the internal discontent over this for a while now, but it still seems like a publicity stunt. Just my opinion. :peace:

I'm really happy to see that Axl, Slash and Duff stick together in this, even if they're not in direct contact  :)

Just a few comments:

1) I think this fundamentaly affirms Mysteron's legitamacy as a source of GnR info.  It's pretty much played out exactly as he said it would, more or less.  I realize this thread isn't about him, but still...I think it bears emphasis.

2) The fact that Duff and Slash are in agreement over GH just affirms the bands position.  It certainly adds legitamacy to the claims, and doesn't paint Axl as a whiner just trying to get "his way".  I do hope, though, that people don't (and I see there is some of it already) read too much into their agreeing.  I doubt they've talked at all...I'm sure it's lawyers and managers acting as intermediaries in the whole process.  

3) I'm not surprised by the timing.  It'll mean that, if the injunction is adopted by the judge (and in these cases they usually are, until the issue can be resolved), that Geffen's not going to really have time to mount much of a defense.  GH will probably not see the shelves in the US for awhile.  I'm not at all sure how that translates into the world market, though.  I have doubts that any court ordered injunction would have jurisdiction outside the US, but I'll admit I'm fuzzy on that.

i think the reason why axl didn't realised cd,was because he belived in reunion with slash and duff!he knew if he realised new album(with gnr name) that was mean the end of gnr.he knew this too "AXL AND SLASH ARE THE BEST COMBINATION IN RNR MUSIC"

Also, consider the residual/royalty rate on this GH is vastly less than what they earn on the "real" catalog.  GH albums, generally, result in back catalog selling fewer copies.  That means that GH could also impact Slash and Duff financially....it may be that as much as any real feeling in regards to the GnR name.

Pilferk,

How does this affect the GH that people in Europe have?  How can they try and block it when it's already been available in Europe? ???

No offense, but why are you even posting this?  If you've paid any attention to anything in the Gn'R world in the last few years, this obviously isn't the case.

Anyway, pilferk, all of those are good points.  I'm a little surprised at the timing though.  Apparently this was in the works for a little while, why didn't the file the lawsuit sooner, before the album was released in other places?   I'm not really asking you, I'm just wondering out loud.

Also, apparently they attemped the same thing with the DVD releases, but failed.  I wonder why they think they have a chance now.

It is nice to see we are indeed regarded by the band is their "loyal audience", that primarily being us at HTGTH, I imagine.  : ok:

It will make it a collecters item for sure.....

damn. don't fucking buy it and why Axl and co. take the legal actions so late?? I mean the GH album is already in stores..

Okay...this is getting a bit more interesting. It seems to me that CD may certainly have been planned for a release in the not to distant future (maybe even for Rio as some speculate).

Although I believe the GH has a flawed track listing, some substitutions (Ain't It Fun, Since I, Sympathy, Yesterdays, Live N' Let Die OUT and Estranged, Rocket Queen, Nightrain, and Mr. Brownstone IN) and an earlier release date (like last year) would've been a smart move. Although I enjoyed Live Era, I felt a more traditional GH package (studio recordings) would be a good way to "package" the original band and make way for the new one.

Not sure what to make of Duff and Slash being on board with this lawsuit, however, I'm sure it's just their lawyers talking and not the boys themselves. Don't get your hopes up for a reunion, people.

All in all, I think these legal actions may potentially speak volumes about the strength of Chinese Democracy. Or, it may just be a ploy for GN'R to seperate from Geffen and Universal Music (a loophole perhaps). Either way, I surely hope it doesn't slow the process of CD's release...sadly, though, I think it might.

Slash doesn't give two shits about Axl anymore. It is about money and a very poor representation of a great band. I am suprised Izzy did not get involved, especially considering the amount of his personal songwriting credits. He would have a large stake in any royalties (or lack thereof) with this shitty compilation. >:(

Why does GH have to "hinder the release" of Chinese Democracy?   Axl is the one who toured singing the hits of the old band!

Slash & Duff arent letting GH affect Contraband.   They're against it for monetary reasons (sale of back catalogue as mentioned earlier)

Someone please give me a simple explanation for my stupid brain why GH has to delay CD?  It sounds like another lame excuse to delay.  Is he so afraid that GH will remind people of what once was, and never will be again?


Stop wasting time Axl.

I agree with you Kujo.  :peace:

fuck,.... like i said before: i just bought the new GH album....

please do me a favour and tell me if i should bring it back to the store or not...

insupportofaxl,
   Well, the answer is: I don't know.  I don't think that any injunction filed by GnR, and adopted by U.S. Courts, would have any effect on the release in other parts of the world.  I could be wrong (as I've said, I'm not an attorney), but I'm pretty sure that, even though both parties are U.S. entities, that Geffen, especially since the product is already released, would only have to abide by the injuntion IN the U.S.  I'd love to see evidence to the contrary, if anyone can find it.

loretian,
  Pretty much the same answer as above, even though your question was more rhetorical.  I think GnR's best bet, in their opinion, is to fight the battle in U.S. courts, rather than in other countries.  And who knows...maybe they waited so long because there were negotiations going on with Geffen to stop the release.  Those negotiations could have been ongoing right up until the release...today in the UK...and when they failed, THEN GnR went to court.  Again, that's complete and total speculation on my part (and I don't even think that's what happened..it's just possible).  I rather suspect the timing is very deliberate, though.....

My understanding is this:

1) It's not a good Gn'R release.  The reasons for this have been gone over numerous times, so I won't get into it here.
2) Axl and co don't want Geffen to put out a Greatest Hits release that they don't feel lives up to the Gn'R name.
3) So, they're initiating a lawsuit to stop it
4) I doesn't seem likely that they'd release a new album with the record company they are trying to sue to stop releasing another album at the same time.  Besides this, I imagine Sanctuary has to devote much of their Gn'R team to the lawsuit instead of planning the release.

Contraband is being released on an entirely different label with different management and different companies altogether, so it wouldn't be affected by this.

A "simple" explanation is tough.  Let me present a couple of ways it could delay CD, though:

1) It pisses Axl off.  That's never a good thing.....and we all know he can be difficult, to be nice, to work with when pissed off.  So, if GH pisses him off, it could delay CD.  Granted, that's not the most likely reason.

2) GH is considered a material breech of contract by the courts.  That nullifies the contract with Geffen....and all the material is split up by the courts.  Maybe Axl gets the CD masters, maybe not.  If not, CD goes in the vaults and is released in 20 years (approx).  Even if he does, Axl now has to shop for a new label, and start some of the process over again.  Now, that's a doomsday scenario, but it's certainly possible.

That makes sense.  I suppose if they do stop the release in the US, it won't be seen as an official release, regardless of where else it's been released.   The timing is very interesting...  You know, with Axl, Slash, Duff, and the fans seemingly against this release, Geffen won't look very good regardless of how this turns out.

And that. possibly, is another reason why this took so long: Getting Axl, Slash, and Duff (or rather, them and their lawyers) to all agree on the course of action.  They would have to have a pretty definitive legal course plotted...and getting them all on board might be trickey, considering their history.  Maybe THAT'S what took so long...

i remember someone saying"If GNR sues Geffen for the release of GH then Hell will break loose" Well i think we can now say ofiicially:

ALL HELL JUST BROKE LOOSE

I don't think that there is a realistic chance for us to see CD on that label if ever!!

Thanks Pilferk..........and on a side note, I think you should have been a lawyer.  Your posts are always informative : ok:

For god's sake, all this constant rambling about lawyers, injunctions its so fucking un-rock-and-roll if you get my drift. I mean, talking law is hardly exciting at the best of times...I just want to get some new tunes, turn my stereo up to 11 and ROCK OUT.

JUST RELEASE THE GODDAM NEW CD!! THATS THE LEAST THEY (AND I'M REFERRING TO ALL CONCERNED PARTIES) CAN DO FOR THE FANS...

ARRRGGGGHHH!!!!

Ditto man, your posts are always appreciated.   : ok:

I am really interested to see how the general media responds to this too, given the facts we've gone over.  Usually Axl is not portrayed in a positive light.  We'll see about this time.

No offense to any lawyers posting, but, if I'd become an attorney, I would've had to kill myself.  Law is interesting, practicing law is frequently slimey and unseemly.  Sure, there are exceptions....but not many.  :)

What do you call 100 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean?

A good start.

If we aren't getting any music, at least this whole soap opera between Axl, the old band, the new band, the label, and all of their lawyers is kind of funny to watch!

i wonder how much copies it will sell... at least in EUROPE and all the other countries it is released/will be released....

Scabbie,
   Oh, were life really that simple.  Unfortunately for us fans, music is a business.  And where there's business, there's lawyers.  Normally, we don't hear about them, but trust me..they're there.  It just seems that GnR is more litigious than many other bands.  ;)
 
One thing though.  While I agree the legal wrangling is very "anti- rock and roll", remember that Axl (and Slash and Duff too, in this case...though their actions might be a bit more mercenary) is doing what he thinks is best for the fans...and for the band.  

loretian,
  Again, thanks.  I think the media might be a bit more kind on the issue, considering Slash and Duff's participation.  I have a feeling Geffen may take a PR drubbing on this one..but we'll have to wait and see.

Offense taken. My father is a lawyer.  He practices law in a small town. He's a good man. As he says, everybody hates lawyers until they need one.

Pilferk - could you explain this one some more?  This is the only direct connection I've seen between GH and CD  (pissing Axl off doesnt count - that's a lame excuse in my book).  Do the CD masters belong to Axl or the record label?  I was under the impression that it was the latter.

Would the courts side with Axl on this one?  If I were a judge, I would be sympathetic to the record label for financing an expensive never-ending project, and want a way to get some cash back...  I'm sure Geffen could also argue that GH can be seen as an advert for CD.


okay, I see your point.  But I am certain Geffen would be more than happy if Sanctuary just handed over CD for immediate release instead of this lawsuit.

Like I said..there are exceptions, just not many of them.  I'm sure your father is a good man.

Oh, and let me add that your father is a bit mistaken.  Everybody hates lawyers, even when they need one.  Just hang around them when they get the bill.....

Pilferk, I am going to go out on a limb here and say that this is Axl's way of starting off his negotiations to leave the label. I can't imagine Geffen will be "hot" to promote Chinese under these circumstances. We also have to consider that Chinese may be the last official Geffen release and it could be the end of their contract. Thus, IF Axl has a follow-up record there may be another debate as to ownership of the "second" album. Personally, I think Axl wants out now and wants complete control of all the recordings for the Democracy sessions. He may have to pay for it but this lawsuit shows the label he will fight to the end, even if the fans are the ones ultimately screwed.  :-\

I'm sure you're right, but I bet Gn'R and it's management feel like they have the right to run the band how they see fit.  Geffen releasing a Greatest Hits without their permission is a slap in the face to that, and regardless of how much just cause you think they may have, and they have chosen to back and support Axl and his plans for many years now.  If they don't like how the band is being run, they should have dropped them or done something else, besides putting out a subpar Gn'R release.

I would imagine the label owns the masters.  Without seeing the contract, I couldn't say for sure.  But, standard label contracts pretty much say the label owns everything generated by studio time payed for by the label....and that would include Axl's personal "studio", since he accepted an advance from the label.

As for where the courts will side...well, who knows.  And without knowing the specifics of the contract and contract language, it would tough to even speculate.  There's so many possible issues it's not even funny.  But, to address a couple you brought up:

Sympathy for the label:
The fact is, unless GnR has violated the terms of their contract, there's no such thing as "sympathy".  If their contract with Geffen allows this kind of procrastination, then Geffen can moan and cry all they want...but they signed the contract.  

Advert for CD:
Here's the kicker.  I'm sure that's what Geffen is going to claim.  The issue at hand, I think, is control over the material.  Geffen thinks they have control to use any previously released material as they see fit, as long as it's within the parameters of satisfying the contract.  "Old" GnR thinks THEY have control over ALL their old material, and that a GH album (reportedly one of the "parameters" in the contract) has to be approved by them before release.  I think that's the crux of the matter.  Depending on the language of the contract, the court will decide who's right.

Oh, and don't discount the "pissed off Axl" scenario.  It's not silly.  If their contract is, for instance, 3 albums over 10 years, with no other restrictions, and they signed it in 1998....well...."pissing off Axl" might mean we get 3 albums dropped in our laps in 2007-2008....

I would like to hear Jarmos personal thoughts on this issue. Jarmo what do you think about the possibility of the release of cd now?
   8)

If this is Axl's way of trying to get away from the label.....it's a pretty dangerous one.  He could end up losing all the work he's done for the past few years.  And, in addition, he'd lose (not that he has now, really, as evidenced by GH's release) control of ALL the old material, for good.  That's a dangerous game to play....unless you're both reasonably confident of the outcome and completely fed up with your working environment.

As for Geffen being "hot" to promote CD..trust me..if CD is good, they could care less about the legal action that Axl/Slash/Duff are taking.  Labels are there to make money...and if they see dollar signs, all will be forgiven...IF the contract is upheld, that is.

As to the "follow up" albums, remember...the label probalby owns ALL the studio masters of anything Axl's done with the new band.  So, for a new album, if the label and the band part company, means completely new material.  Wanna take bets on how long that takes?  I suspect I'd be a geriatric by then.

As for Axl wanting all the masters, I'm sure he does. Precedent in these cases, though, isn't really on his side...which is why the game is so dangerous.  Some artists have successfully done it, but many more have gotten screwed.

And you're right...the fans are the ones who will most likely get screwed the worst by extended legal action....

We don't know what Axl's contract says in regards to ownership of the material. I personally doubt he has a standard industry contract. It is probably worded in a way that can be interpreted in many ways (damn lawyers..sorry Johnny but it is true for the most part). We also don't know what the label "advanced" Axl and how much Axl has put in of his own money. I think he wants out and wants out now. On a side note, it is funny how Bucket dropped the Gnr board....he obviously is not too pleased with the current Gnr situation.  :no:

It'll be out. Even if it means Axl has to re-record the whole thing. I don't think he wants to let somebody else decide what he can or can't release.

I just don't think he wants to throw away all the work done so far.


/jarmo

If gnr (axl,slash,duff) sued Geffen I am sure they have smth in the contract that material belongs to them not to the company. Future it seems: there will be a break up between Gn'r and Geffen so this might delay cd for so long time.  :no:  

True, but let me say this: I have never, ever, ever heard of a contract where the label did not own the studio masters.  Maybe there's been one....maybe someone can point out one..but I've never heard of one.  It's considered collateral against the advance and expense of studio time.  We can reasonably assume that the label owns the masters, without evidence to the contrary.

In addition, it's true, we don't know what the studio advanced GnR...but it really doesn't matter.  ANY advance, no matter how small or large, would do.

Now, whether Axl wants out or not...I'm not even going to speculate.  I'll agree, the legal action could certainly lead t that.

   I have a question for people in the know. Is it at all possible that GH was a decoy for CD. The reason I think it might be possible is a couple of things people have posted over the past couple of months.
  1. The fact that Axl and Geffen were concerned about intenet piracy and CD getting leaked before it was released.
  2. The March 31 agreement that was suppost to have been made about the first GH release date.
  So would it be possible to hide the printing of CD under the veil of the GH print enough to release a handful overseas then file a suit to stop it knowing you were going to settle by Geffen droping GH and Axl releasing an already made CD.  This way you could put out generic Guns and Roses ads then a week before CD comes out  you could flood the press with CD ads. Possibly giving the intenet people a hard time to get their hands on CD.
  Just my thought to keep me from giving up all hope on ever seeing CD.

If he's gonna re-record all stuff we gonna have to wait much more. This really aint good for cd. Hope Geffen and Axl slash duff agreed on better greatest hits (remasters,demos,live performance etc.)

Again, I think the root of the issue may be interpretation.  It's very possible (hell, probable) that the two different legal teams are interpreting the language in very different ways.  I think the BEST case scenario is that turns out to be the case...with the judge simply being used to interpret the legal language to figure out which side is right.  I HOPE the case ends up being that simple.

I'm not really in the know, but I'd say that's not a possibility.  If the lawsuit was to make it seem legit and all, then the question would be raised as to how they suddenly had all the Chinese Democracy packages ready to go so quickly.  Also, that'd be a pretty big undertaking and lots of people would be involved, so hiding a leak would be very hard.  Certainly a lot harder than doing a normal release and just trying to prevent a leak.

It's an interesting theory, but there's one issue.  The lawsuit has been filed.  The courts do not take kindly to being "duped" or used for publicity.  Were the two parties conspiring to do such a thing, they could be reprimanded by the court, and possibly fined and imprisoned (Contempt is pretty broad).

Having said that...it certainly wouldn't surprise me to find out the GH is "punishment", by the label, for GnR not meeting some label/band agreed upon release date.  But that's idle speculation on my part.

Wilco left Reprise with all the masters for the Yankee Hotel Foxtrot album..granted production costs were only 200,000 to 300,000. This was highly publicized.  Point is, Axl may buy the masters or be looking to negotiate for them. He could then turn around and negotiate a new contract to his liking with a new company...a three album deal where he recoups all his costs from the purchase with Geffen (plus bank some more). Geffen simply may not believe in the project and doesn't want to spend anymore money on promotion (or time dealing with Rose). Also, you have the fact that Geffen probably wrote off a majority of the costs when they folded a few years back.

Slash took the second Snakepit album to Koch and got them to release it. I think Geffen let him go...

Duff didn't get his second solo album.....



/jarmo

True.  Wilco negotiated the purchase of the masters from Reprise as part of the contract settlement process..and Axl certainly could do the same....and we have no clue what the production costs, out of label pocket, were.  Axl could very well have funded a portion, or even a majority, of the recording (which would further ensnarl and lengthen the settlement process).  I would say that I HOPE the outcome would be as beneficial (from a fans standpoint) as that.  As I said, the scenario I presented was "the doomsday scenario"..as in worst case.  It could very well turn out better.  But again, I just think it's a dangerous game to play...and in the long run, even the "best case scenario", if the contract is voided or Axl tries to negotiate an out, it's going to mean a wait..and potentially a very long one.

LOL...I was just thinking how Aerosmith's Behind the Music was negotiated to be 2 hrs. in length (the first to be ORIGINALLY that long). Jesus, if and when we ever see another rise of GN'R, I think they better negotiate for a friggin' Mini-Series when it comes time to tell their whole story  :hihi:

From what I remember, Geffen excercised first right of refusal on the 2nd Snakepit album (as in, they heard it and said no thanks...so Slash could take it elsewhere).  Not sure about Duff's 2nd album, though.

OK Pilferk point accepted, lawyers are unavoidable, however when I first picked up - AFD (almost 13 years ago now), I liked it because it helped me escape real life. And now with a full time job and all that the last thing I want to hear about is lawyers.

I'm fully behind Axl if and when he does release it, although I hope for his sake it is worth the wait. As for my feelings on this issue, I just have a few points and one question to raise to:

- If, and I say if, CD was planned for release before Rock In Rio then why did Geffen press ahead with the Greatest Hits, against Axls best wishes (I cannot believe for a second they didn't know it pissed him off).

- If they hadn't planned on releasing CD in the near term, then Axl could have realised that agreeing a guaranteed release date would have prevented the release of GH. It worked before so why not now?

- If Axl really cares for his fans, then why (for once) doesn't he just swallow his pride and get on with releasing the album. I'm sure no one wouldn't give two shits about GH if he released CD and it was as good as everyone who has been involved makes out.

And herein lies my last question. Can Axl afford to drag this out any longer? We've heard lots of talk about how much it has cost him, so what does he lose by delaying the release? A bucketload (sorry for the pun) of cash,  a loyal fanbase, maybe the band members when their contract expires, his reputation, another couple years of his life not enjoying the status etc etc. I think this is his last opportunity to prove himself.

Oh well, back to reality..I must admit that it made me laugh to see Geffen getting bombarded with letters and e-mails...oh those poor record execs, I wander what they expected.

Finally, what would be the best is a live, televised court battle, with all of the secret details of the last few months revealed to the greater public. Kinda like LA LAW. Throw in a few hot chicks and a few guest appearances from the man himself...now I'm starting to get the whole lawyer thing! And that would be one mother fucker of a promotional campaign!

  A couple of things I have problem with are Why would Geffen risk all the money they have spent on CD by releasing an album that would probably sell 1/10 as much as a "bad" CD just to punish and probably piss off the loose cannon aka Axl. Secondly, Why would you wait until the GH was already released overseas to file a suit, they have known it was going to come out for months why the delay? I agree that courts don't like to be fooled around with but alot of lawsuits are filed knowing that there is no way they will ever get to court but will be settled. Also this is Axl we are talking about so anything is possible!

Read back a bit further, and you'll see some of the speculation about why they "waited" for GH to be released overseas.  To sum up, US courts, I don't think, would have jurisdiction to stop the release overseas.  The US courts, however, are Axl's best chance at getting an injunction, AND, if that's really what he wants, the only courts that can comment on the validity of the contract and interpret it's language (since both parties are US entities).

And on the lawsuit front: Expecting settlement is fine, as long as you have a legitemate suit.  Conspiring between parties to file a suit, simply for publicity, wouldn't be.

Blabbermouth also reported it. They got itfrom the same source.

http://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=20379 (http://www.roadrunnerrecords.com/blabbermouth.net/news.aspx?mode=Article&newsitemID=20379)

Whats the Reslease date for the us and canada?

Today??

March 23, 2004.

GN'R and Axl should release CD on Sanctuary Records, that would simplify things.

I think Nikki Sixx and Motley Crue got to keep and own all their masters when they left there label - thats why the re-issued them all the first time around.

what's the deal with Izzy? I guess Izzy just doesn't care anymore..

This does afirm Mysteron.

It's kind of cool in a way too. But I worry about CD being held up even longer.

Again, negotiated as part of the dissolution of their contract.  They bought the material from the label as part of that settlement.  What I'm saying is that no label contract, that I know of, has the artist owning the masters.  There have been a number of artists who, upon disolving a contract with a label, have negotiated ownership of their material as part of settlement.  That's entirely different.

Pathetic, truley pathetic

They wait till its released - and then protest. Who are they trying to fool?

Even we have known about the GH for months and they choose now to object. This is pathetic.

I think this could be really bad !! At this point, it seems to be another CD delay..
This is near to be the end if CD isn't released this year.

Pilferk,

I know your probably tired of  crazy questions but....

I have a one:

IF the label owns the masters can they just release it without the band?
I know they must be fed up with Axl taking so long, so is this a possible scenario. Obviously it sounds crazy, but is it legally allowed? And in this case you probably would have no tour or anything like that - just Chinese Democracy in stores, which would still sell millions.

Thanx!

Maybe GN'R has the final say in what's released and when.

If Geffen can release whatever they want, why didn't they release some new/unreleased tracks instead of the Greatest Hits?



/jarmo

This sounds terrible to say but....

what if they don't have the masters yet!?

ugh I'm confused and depressed !

I would hardly call press releases about shitty tracklists good publicity to sell an album!

You're assuming that Geffen thinks CD will sell millions. With the exception of a few thousand hardcore internet fans, how many people do you think are going to lineup to buy CD. Everyone is declaring this album an instant masterpiece without ever hearing any of the material (except for a handful of song played live, which might not even be on CD)

Right now? No, at least not if the contract is "normal".  Artists usually have an approval process built into the contract.  Until the artist approves for new material to be released, it can't be....I would expect, given Axl's penchant for control, that such a clause is included in their contract.  I can't be sure, obviously, but it's pretty standard stuff, especially for established artists.

If there's a contract dispute and Axl loses? Possible, but not likely.  Most likely, they'll have to vault the material or, alternately, negotiate with Axl for Axl (with the possible backing of another label, financially) to buy the masters back.  Now, that's not to say it would be impossible. If the judge sided with Geffen, and found Axl to be in significant material breech of contract, AND found  that there was significant enough damages done to the label by Gnr that the only way the label could recoup was via a release (or string of releases), they could grant Geffen complete (and there is a latin phrase used for this, but I can't, for the life of me, remember it) rights to everything recorded.  That would be unusual for the courts to do, but not out of the realm of possibility.  Were that to happen, Geffen could release any part of the material whenever it deemed worthy.  I find that scenario unlikely.....but it does bear mentioning.

Yeah thats what I was thinking...If the courts sided solely with the label and GNR split then material could be released.

Thanks very much!

True. Sales will depend on the strength of the material.  That being said, given The Blues, CD, and Madagascar, I think it's safe to assume the material is relatively strong.  I don't know that I would say it's an instant masterpiece, but I would say that, given what we've heard, it's at least headed in the right direction.  That being said, you're right: We're all assuming...

Well, I think Axl is doing the right thing, and I really doubt this should have any negative effect on the release of 'Chinese Democracy'.

Just because WE found out about it now, doesn't mean that the process has just started now.

But remember that when Live Era was released there came 2 "new" videos out too... It would be cool to see new gnr videos this time too

I think the answer lies in your "if".  I can just see Geffen telling the courts that since CD isnt coming out, and Contraband is, they can cash in on the hype by releasing GH.
And yet.. they spelled Appetite wrong!  I'm so confused  :confused:


I was wondering the same thing.  He has lost so much credibility in the past few years.  But he could regain it all back.  I suppose that's why I keep waiting, and waiting.

This just confirms what I've been thinking since hearing that a hits cd was being released:  It ain't coming out in the US.  There has been ZERO promotion.   That is unheard of for an album of this magnitude.   Yes, I know the tracklist sucks.  Like many of you, I emailed the geffen dude to tell him so.   That doesn't change the fact that this SHOULD be a huge event.  At least 8 or 9 of the songs are among the biggest of the last 20 years.   This thing, with promotion, would sell like a motherfucker.   At the very least, a million by the end of the year.   Several million over the next few years.   I haven't seen any advertising...no internet, no television, no radio promos, no magazine ads.   At the very least, you always see magazine ads...you know, the ones that take up half a page.   No ads in Rolling Stone, Spin, etc.  

Also, no offense to those of you outside the US, I don't think any of the gnr guys, new or old, really cared that much about this cd being available in Europe.   There are so many miscellaneous legal, semi-legal, and bootleg releases floating around outside the US that a few thousand copies of this one wouldn't change anything.   Like it or not,  this is an American band  (no...not Grand Funk Railroad ;) and the release would probably not be considered official by most if it didn't come out in the US.

As far as the press release,  I have to see that as what we've all been asking for...news regarding the new record.   We've all been complaining that there's been no communication from the band.   Well, right there in the press release it says Axl is "concerned that not only will their audience be misled into believing that the planned compilation is an authorized release but that it will hinder the release of the band's long awaited new studio album CHINESE DEMOCRACY."

I didn't really give that line a 2nd thought at first but think about it.


Doesn't that reveal a couple of things?

1.  There is a studio album coming out.

2.  Axl is still firmly in control....good or bad.



I can't help but see both of those as positives...and I'm as skeptical as they come.


After reading this info,  I see the following happening:

Greatest Hits will NOT be released in the US.   Axl will have to prove to the judge, however, that HE is not in breach of contract for this to happen.  

Guns N' Roses will be at Rock in Rio @ Lisbon and likely hit 5-7 other festivals and one-off dates outside the US.   Chinese Democracy will be released sometime during these dates.   Sales and airplay (radio, internet, and videos) will determine where and what venues the band will hit in the US.   I can't imagine any US dates before September or October.   I don't see them being on any soundtracks.   Hell, I don't even see them releasing singles as that is a dying market.   Legal downloads, yes....traditional singles, no.   Beyond that, only the success of the album and early dates will determine Axl's intentions for this version of Gn'R.


That's it.  That's my speculation.  My wild un-educated guesses.  There are no facts above.   Have I covered my ass enough?   haha....

I'm just glad this press release mentioned SOMETHING about CHINESE DEMOCRACY.  Maybe this means Axl will have his way with the new album and release it right around RIR4 or we will not see it EVER!

I don't see the Cd coming out before Rio and now I don't Know if it will ever come out now.  :(

not true. i live in new york city and was walking around a bunch this weekend running errands, and I saw a bunch of big signs and posters for the GH cd plastered all over the place on walls and by the sidewalks and such. I took a photo of one on my digital cam- I'll try to get it up on the site soon. But yea, I definitely saw them all over the city, which i was surprised at- but it shows that there is a good amount of promotion going on in the US. i dont think they'd bother putting up posters all over the city if it wasnt going to be coming out.

Has anyone noticed how Geffen never mentions Chinese Democracy or the new album in their press releases?? Only Sanctuary (management) does. I think that's kinda weird.

Agreed!

AA.

boo hoo

its about time someone pissed off axl, he's been getting his own way for years and now something has back fired, unlucky axl, maybe this will teach u not to piss people off.

Pilferk, I have a question for you: Given all of the speculation throughout the previous 6 pages, one thing that strikes me is this:  How could Axl possibly prove, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that he is not in breach of contract here?  Surely, Geffen's defense will simply state that Mr. Rose has not released an album of original material in 14 years?
  Geffen can show that they've released multiple archival releases in throughout the years in the hopes that eventually Axl would wrap CD up and hold up his end, so to speak.  Regardless of any special clauses present in Axl's contract, I'd suspect that there can't possibly be something that allows for that much leeway regarding a new release...Geffen can cite the continuous stream of money they've invested in the project as motivation for Axl to complete it, and despite CD's perceived commercial viability, Geffen has simply attempted to recoup some of their investment here.  Granted, we all know Axl hasn't been working on this record for that entire time period, however I just don't see how Axl will justify such delay and procrastination.

maybe Geffen isnt 100 percent sure they are going to ever release it.. IF they were to speak of it then they would be acknowledging that its something they plan on putting out.... If they ever tell Axl to go to hell they save themselves from getting mud in the eye or in a court of law acknowledging they were planning on a release of it..

Duff's second solo album was never released but you can still get hold of it though on the net

I was thinking even if Geffen does have the master copies of Chinese Democracy releasing it would be dumb

Greatest Hits needs no tour or promotion by the band, it needs no new music videos

Chinese Democracy needs videos and tours if Geffen just put it out would Axl tour anyway fuck no he would be so pissed they'd have another lawsuit on their hands

HAHA THis is great.  I bet Axl threatend them, if they release it he will sue.  I bet they didn't believe him and didn't have the balls to do so and guess what he did.  This drama is great. :smoking:

GREAT! it makes my day... :)

Perhaps all they needed to prove a breech in contract was a release and a store bought copy and recipt in their hands.

This is line was obviously included to get the backing and public support of Slash, and Duffs fans as well...

Okay, I just got back from Dan Marino's tavern and damn......I have a buzz.........and god damn there are a lot of posters on this site right now : ok:


I just hope whatever happens doesn't delay CD.....more time and more waiting is what we'll get no doubt :o

It means absolutely NOTHING...

but it sure was nice to read.  : ok:

Guns N' Roses Members Sue Label To Block Greatest Hits CD
03.15.2004 5:40 PM EST  
 
 
Singer W. Axl Rose, guitarist Slash and bassist Duff McKagan have joined forces once again. No, they're not re-forming the original Guns N' Roses, they're suing former label Geffen Records to block the release of a compilation album due March 23.

The musicians filed their civil suit in U.S. District Court in Los Angeles, seeking a temporary restraining order and preliminary injunction against the Greatest Hits disc (see "Guns N' Roses' Greatest Due In March, But Axl May Intervene"). The bandmembers claim they had no say in the choice of songs, artwork, release date or re-mastering.

In a press statement, the band's management said, "Not only will audiences be misled into believing that the planned compilation is an authorized release, but [the Greatest Hits album] will hinder the release of the band's long-awaited new studio album, Chinese Democracy."

The press statement added that "there has been a massive outcry among the band's loyal audience against the Greatest Hits record" and that the fans "believe the track selection is fundamentally flawed, does not reflect the band's best work and is clearly not the ultimate package that would be selected by the band or their fanbase if they were given the opportunity."



?Jon Wiederhorn
 
http://www.mtv.com/

---

Guns N' Roses Sues To Block 'Greatest Hits'

As tipped here last month, current and former members of Guns N' Roses have filed a lawsuit against Geffen Records in an attempt to block what they call the "unauthorized release" of a pending best-of collection. The "Greatest Hits" set, due March 23, is tipped to feature such favorites as "Welcome to the Jungle," "Sweet Child O' Mine," "Patience" and "Paradise City."

In an interesting twist, former GNR principals Slash and Duff McKagan have joined lone current original member Axl Rose in filing the lawsuit, which seeks a temporary restraining order and preliminary injunction against the issuing of "Greatest Hits."

The band claims it was not consulted on the track list, artwork or the remastering of the chosen songs. In a statement released by the group's management at the Sanctuary Group, Rose expresses concern that "not only will [the] audience be misled into believing that the planned compilation is an authorized release, but that it will hinder the release of the band's long-awaited new studio album, 'Chinese Democracy.'"

The statement references a "massive outcry among the band's loyal audience," over a "track selection [that] is fundamentally flawed, does not reflect the band's best work and is clearly not the ultimate package that would be selected by the band or [its] fan base if they were given the opportunity."

The suit adds further doubt to the uncertain future of "Chinese Democracy," a project that has dragged on for years amid personnel changes within Guns N' Roses and a disastrous 2002 comeback tour. No firm date has been given for its appearance.


-- Jonathan Cohen, N.Y.

http://www.billboard.com/



/jarmo

1. I just dont understand why it took so long, why so late when its days away from release?

2. Its cool that the band know about all (well most) of our disgust at the GH package  : ok:

If everyone here rants for a few seconds @ MTV they will no doubt make a "You Tell Us!" feature on the GH.


Anyways, this is the first official statement Sanctuary has made about this correct?  Wouldn't that mean that all the other reports of the Greatest Hits CD being "against the band and Axl's wishes" stems from what Mysteron has posted on this website?

Here's the simple answer: If Axl was actually in breech...Geffen would have sued him by now.  While you and I can't imagine a contract that would allow for so much procrastinating on GnR's part, from a new release standpoint, considering what's transpired so far....I have to assume that's exactly what exists.  Again, having not actually SEEN the contract, I'm only guessing.  But, if there were hard deadlines (album 1 by such and such a date, album 2 by such and such a date) built into the contract, and Axl/Gnr were missing them (wildly), Geffen would have taken legal action...at least to recoup their advance and expenses.  Given there hasn't been any.....I think there's really only one logical assumption to make.

As for using GH to recoup some of their investment...well, that doesn't really work as a legal defense.  IF they don't have complete control over the previously released material, they can't release it just because they feel they've been ill-used.  The court would say "That may well be, but you can't breech the contract simply because you feel ill used.  If you feel you need renumeration, you would need to ask the court for that...you can't just take matters into your own hands".  That's mostly why I think it's a matter of contract language interpretation.  Geffen's not stupid...they're not going to knowingly violate the contract for ANY reason...doing so would be very, very bad, and have huge repurcussions.  However, if the language is even remotely vague, no judge is going to majorly penalize someone for misinterpretation.  They might explain the legal language, interpret it as they understand it, and slap the "misinterpreter" on the wrist a bit, but that would be about it.

We'll just have to wait and see.  I'm thinking, unless the two parties settle, we'll get LOTS of answers when the case hits court.

Another fucked up day to be a Gnr fan!

I dont blame them for trying to block the release, as its a lame ass excuse for an album.

The consequences as discussed though could either mean 1 of 2 things:-

1. Chinese Democracy gets released soon.

2. Chinese Democracy gets released when Axl is 80 and i am 59 or never at al.

As a pessimist im leaning toward the latter and look forward to some more official news with regards to this from The Band, Sanctuary,Axl,Slash,Duff, Geffen.


At least its interesting, and thanks Pilf, its nice to see someone with intelligence, posting interesting and informative posts in an adult manner in this section and not just spouting random rumours and bullshit.


Who the fuck would be a Guns N Roses fan?

well... SOMETIME its gonna be released.... maybe when axl is alive.. but just look at the The Hollywood Rose release now... SOMEONE is going back in the vaults sometime... either way, we all get chinese democracy! someway or the other

THis is some funny ass shit. :smoking:  Has anyone tried buying the GH hits today in the us.  I;m sure some gunners have.  Is it still on the shelves?

Its not out yet....

Its out in some countries.. and already being sold around the world on ebay

Wonder if this means the GH could become a rare collectors item?

Actually, I don't think that really means anything like a reunion.  I read yesterday in an interview with Slash in Hit Parader that he hasn't talked to Axl in "about eight years".  I'd say what happened was Slash and Duff heard about the lawsuit, agreed, and so their lawyers contacted Axl's lawyer to lend Slash and Duff's support to the lawsuit.  It's really not a big deal, I don't think.  Unfortunately.

Geez, I'm gone all day setting up a Network - and I get to come back to this?  Wow.. what fun  ;D

Ok, here's my take on this.  And by the way, just want to say, great job, Pilferk - your answers and explanations are as informative as ever and I, for one, appreciate it.

A. Slash / Duff involved in the lawsuit along with Axl - No matter what, I think I can only view this as a 'good thing' - I realize it doesn't mean they're sitting down at Spagos over a nice Chateau Briand or something, bit it does at least create hope that they can eventually work out their differences - even if its 5-10 years down the road - and we might, far, far down that road, approach that dreaded 'R' word.

B. What this does to the release of "Chinese Democracy": Honestly?  I think it accelerates the process.. that is, *if* GNR can force, via contract, release of CD on a specific timetable once the masters are handed over.  Let's just say for a moment that there is no injunction issued and GH comes out in the US market.. lets FURTHER say that the remaining contractual obligation to Geffen consists of 1 New Release and 1 GH (I think there was another live disc in there, too - but not sure about that)  So.. Axl says "You know what, fuck this" - releases CD to Geffen, which gets released to us.  Bingo!  Contract over.. if there's another live disc clause in there, too - then you just hand over the soundboard recording of MSG - done.

At that point, Axl's value to a new label increases, big time.  He's got 2 current releases out there (GH & CD. AND he's just completed (or is in the middle of) a tour on CD's material.  All of a sudden, the red headed recluse looks more like the rapidly growing dollar sign to a new label.  Plus, there's no outstanding obligation to Geffen.. its pretty much a blank check (that is, if CD is as successful as I think it will be)

C. My thinking on the results of the lawsuit: Honestly, I dont see Axl being found in breach of the contract - because if that were an issue, I think Geffen would have sued him long ago for such.. there's got to be *something* in that contract that is keeping them from 'calling out the dogs' on Axl - even if the guy hasn't said anything in 15 months.  I would absolutely LOVE to see that contract.. its gotta be a doozy

D. If nothing else, this is gonna lead to some sort of 'war of words' between the parties involved, I think.  I cant WAIT to read Geffen's argument in court, or, even better - the GNR attorneys argument.. I'm pretty certain those transcripts will be available.. or at least I hope so.

I think the next few weeks are gonna be filled with all sorts of twists and turns - so buckle your seatbelts, the ride will be starting momentarily.

-darknemus

Here is what I hope comes out of this. The representatives of Slash Duff and Axl sit down and agree to a 2 disc "Ultimate"/ "Essential" CD. Disc one is the Singles. Its tracklisting is quite similar to the GH without Sympathy or Ain it Fun. Estranged replaces it. Disc 2 is Called Underground and Unearthed.
It has 16 tracks
1. Mr Brownstone
2. Its So Easy
3. Rocket Queen
4. DTJ
5. Don't Damn Me
6. Dust N Bones
7. Pretty Tied Up
8. Sympathy for the Devil
9. Jumping Jack Flash
10. Crash Diet
11. Going Out of My Head
12. Anything Goes (Alternate)
13. Unreleased Hanoi Rocks Cover (TSI Era)
14. Unreleased Stooges Cover (TSI Era)
15. Another Cover we don't know about
16. An original Unreleased Track

 I can dream can't I?

 : ok: to all the posters who contributed some great theories on this.


Maybe Axl will read this and use one of them in court ;D

Was this the big 'announcement' Mysteron was referring to?

On a side note......[wave] Axl.....no one is gonna buy that piece of shit GH...we all want CD so don't stress too much over it   :smoking:

http://www.roadrun.com/blabbermouth.net/index.aspx (http://www.roadrun.com/blabbermouth.net/index.aspx)

GUNS N' ROSES' Petition Turned Down - Mar. 15, 2004
 
  The U.S. District Court in L.A. turned down GUNS N' ROSES' petition today seeking a temporary restraining order and preliminary injunction against Geffen Records seeking to prevent the label from releasing a greatest hits record from the band, according to Hits Daily Double. The suit claimed that GNR hasn't "been given the opportunity to approve the choice of songs, the artwork, the release date or the re-mastering done on the tracks included on this compilation." Today's decision clears the way for the album to come out as scheduled on March 23. A press statement from the band stated that the greatest hits set would "hinder the release of the band?s long-awaited new studio album 'Chinese Democracy'." Sources say that the label has advanced Axl Rose $10 million over the past six years for production of the album, which was slated to come out last year in the fourth quarter, but remains unreleased.  

Well damn, that was fast.  Just the beginning, though, I'm afraid.

-darknemus

Okay, so we are back to square one.  I guess the only way to show your support for GNR (now Slash and Duff too)......is to not buy this GH compilation.

How many chances can GNR have to appeal this or whatever?  If the court turned down the injuntion, does that mean the court doesn't deem it worthy as a court case? :o

Nope, it just means the specific judge the case went in front of didnt feel there was enough cause to issue an injunction at this time - doesn't mean that the case, itself, has no merit.  Just that the initial arguments weren't compelling enough for an injunction to be issued.

-darknemus

i thought that greatest hits, and not CD, was slated for release in the fourth quarter of last year?????


what the hell is going on?!?!?!?!?!

$10m!!!!

Goota agree with the track listing, and I don't mean to get off topic, but where did this song "Going Out of my Head" come from ? Is it available? Anyone heard it? I heard that the Hanoi Rocks cover never happened because Slash couldn't learn the song!?  I think it was "Beer and a Cigarette," anyone else know?

So GH has already been released in Lisbon right?  And now it looks like it will be released in the U.S.  So we can pretty much expect the following:
          1) GN'R play the RIR4 show with the old setlist.
          2) We get no new songs, but we certainly get a long rant.
 The idea of C.D. coming out sooner because of this is actually possible.  Under the assumption GN'R wanted to finish all 3 albums before touring(as Axl said) A settlement may come out of this which releases C.D. now and allows for time to finish the other two albums at a later date.  It seems to me Geffen is 'flexing some serious muscle' and Axl might have to finally give in.        

Well it sucks that they said no to it. hopefully Axl just releases the damn thing.

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=musicNews&storyID=4573413&section=news (http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=musicNews&storyID=4573413&section=news)

Geffen Records Prevails Over Axl Rose Lawsuit
By Steve Gorman
LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - A federal judge on Monday cleared the way for Geffen Records to release a greatest-hits album next week from the rock band Guns N' Roses over the objection of its lead singer, Axl Rose.

Rose sued Geffen, a unit of Universal Music Group under Vivendi Universal, seeking to prevent the best-of collection from being released, claiming he was not consulted on the choice or remixing of material for the album.

He was joined as a plaintiff in the suit, filed last Friday, by two band members from the original lineup -- guitarist Slash and bassist Duff McKagan -- even though their rights to the Guns N' Roses name was signed over to Rose years ago when they left the group.

But U.S. District Judge Dale Fischer denied their request for a temporary restraining order, allowing Geffen to issue the album as planned next Tuesday. A hearing on a motion for a preliminary injunction was set for next month.

"Their lawsuit is meritless," Universal Music spokesman Peter LoFrumento said. "Fortunately, since the court has denied their application for a temporary restraining order, the album will be released as scheduled on March 23."

According to the lawsuit, Rose objected to the selection of songs for the compilation album, the timing of its release, the album's artwork and the re-mastering of the original tapes.

The album features 14 tracks in all and eight of Guns N' Roses' hit singles, including "Welcome to the Jungle, "Paradise City" and "Sweet Child O' Mine" from the mega-selling 1987 album "Appetite for Destruction."

The group's last studio album, "The Spaghetti Incident?," was issued in 1993. A 2002 MTV appearance by a reconstituted Guns N' Roses, with Rose as the lone member from the band's heyday, helped spark interest in the group's new lineup, but a subsequent U.S. tour was cut short.

The suit, which accuses Geffen of trademark infringement and breach of contract, says the label is barred under its contract with Guns N' Roses from altering its master recordings without the band's permission.

A statement from Rose's manager added that the greatest-hits set "will hinder the release of the band's long-awaited new studio album, 'Chinese Democracy."'

Geffen officials had no further comment on the dispute. But a source familiar with the situation said the label has been waiting seven years for Rose to deliver "Chinese Democracy" and has poured $13 million into production of that album after repeated promises that he was about to finish the project.

"Every year there's been a new reason why Axl is not done with the record," the source told Reuters, adding that Geffen went ahead with the greatest-hits package only because Rose failed to come through with "Chinese Democracy." "Had he delivered this record like he promised seven years ago, this would not be happening right now."

A representative for Rose was not immediately available for comment.

I found this part particularly interesting:


So, doesn't that definitely suggest there was a re-mastering?  And yet we've heard responses from some people that there was no remastering.. weird.

lol.. this is totally unrelated, but I'm watching some "Rebirth of the Taliban" on the Science channel.. there's a girl from Pakistan doing the commentary.. she just said she grew up in a Liberal Islamist society - she said "I grew up listening to Guns n' Roses & U2" - just thought that was amusing.

-darknemus

13 million dollars?  :nervous:

Hey guys the little coming soon thing under the news on GNRONLINE.com has been taken off.  I think we may get a message or something on there protesting the greatest hits soon.

keep dreaming : ok:

lookie here:


Moreover, the lawsuit is "meritless".  If that is not a slap in the face, I dont know what is.  The courts appear 'sympathetic' to Geffen (understandably so).

As has been mentioned plenty of times:  Axl's contract must be one helluva contract.

But there is only so many times you can keep delaying!  

There's only so many times you can replace drummers, guitarists, and producers before the shit hits the fan!  

AAAARRRGGGGHHHHH!!!

the credits on the GH cd do appear to suggest that it has been remastered, although its not really noticable.

LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - A federal judge on Monday cleared the way for Geffen Records to release a greatest-hits album next week from the rock band Guns N' Roses over the objection of its lead singer, Axl Rose (news).

Rose sued Geffen, a unit of Universal Music Group under Vivendi Universal, seeking to prevent the best-of collection from being released, claiming he was not consulted on the choice or remixing of material for the album.


He was joined as a plaintiff in the suit, filed last Friday, by two band members from the original lineup -- guitarist Slash and bassist Duff McKagan (news) -- even though their rights to the Guns N' Roses name was signed over to Rose years ago when they left the group.


But U.S. District Judge Dale Fischer denied their request for a temporary restraining order, allowing Geffen to issue the album as planned next Tuesday. A hearing on a motion for a preliminary injunction was set for next month.


"Their lawsuit is meritless," Universal Music spokesman Peter LoFrumento said. "Fortunately, since the court has denied their application for a temporary restraining order, the album will be released as scheduled on March 23."


According to the lawsuit, Rose objected to the selection of songs for the compilation album, the timing of its release, the album's artwork and the re-mastering of the original tapes.


The album features 14 tracks in all and eight of Guns N' Roses' hit singles, including "Welcome to the Jungle, "Paradise City" and "Sweet Child O' Mine" from the mega-selling 1987 album "Appetite for Destruction."


The group's last studio album, "The Spaghetti Incident?," was issued in 1993. A 2002 MTV appearance by a reconstituted Guns N' Roses, with Rose as the lone member from the band's heyday, helped spark interest in the group's new lineup, but a subsequent U.S. tour was cut short.


The suit, which accuses Geffen of trademark infringement and breach of contract, says the label is barred under its contract with Guns N' Roses from altering its master recordings without the band's permission.


A statement from Rose's manager added that the greatest-hits set "will hinder the release of the band's long-awaited new studio album, 'Chinese Democracy."'


Geffen officials had no further comment on the dispute. But a source familiar with the situation said the label has been waiting seven years for Rose to deliver "Chinese Democracy" and has poured $13 million into production of that album after repeated promises that he was about to finish the project.


"Every year there's been a new reason why Axl is not done with the record," the source told Reuters, adding that Geffen went ahead with the greatest-hits package only because Rose failed to come through with "Chinese Democracy." "Had he delivered this record like he promised seven years ago, this would not be happening right now."


A representative for Rose was not immediately available for comment


Keep fighting Axl!  We are all awaiting Chi Dem.

 :rant:Well I'm going to show my support to Axl by NOT buyinh the Cd. :o

could someone shine light on this

A statement from Rose's manager added that the greatest-hits set "will hinder the release of the band's long-awaited new studio album, 'Chinese Democracy."'

I think it will DELAY the fuck out of it...  heres why

1. Axl wont worry about releasing CD untill the GH lawsuit  
    is resolved.

2. Suing his record label is not a good buiness move.

3. Axl may say "Well since Geffen screwed me, ill screw
    them" "The dont deserve to release CD, They cant wait  
    for the big guns they dont get shit"

I think he will say if Geffen wont play by my rules, with my band, my music, then ill take my ball and go home..

 

All I can say is fuck Geffen and fuck Universal.  Lets boycott greatest hits :rant:

I pretty sure that means we will have to wait longer now for Chinese Democracy to come out.  :( I thought Axl would win this case with no problem.  

They didnt loose the lawsuit.. They just lost the temporary injunction against GH being released in the States.  They can apeal this ... they still have one week....

What do we know about this dipshit??

email address?? phone number???

The record company is right, if Axl had come through with this album thats been in the making forever, this wouldnt be happening.  Now Axl and management will use this as an excuse to continue to withhold the album when really it makes no difference.  If Axl was ready with this album, Im sure there wouldnt be a problem.  But Im sure the record companys been hearing "Itll be done soon" for the past seven years and theyve had enough.  Rightly so, too.  Here Geffen sinks millionsand millions of dollars into a project that seems as if it will never see the light of day, all while GNRs stock plummets thanks to Axl.  Putting out a brand-new Guns N' Roses record for all that money probably seemed like a fine idea 11 years ago in 1993, but now its 2004 and that superstar band has dwindled into irrelevance.   And if these reports are true and $13 million has been put into this thing...I dont even know what to say.  If this is true, this album better be huge, because with those figures, 2 million copies will not suffice.  This is Invincible.

 :beer: Heres to more waiting...

I was alittle shocked to heard that Duff and Slash are together with Axl in this lawsuit. Yeah it must be a real price of shit if none of the band wants it to come out. Maybe they should have filed this lawsuit a few weeks ago.  :-\  

In that case, Geffen should have every right to release the music that is owed to them and drop GNR from the label.

If anyone from Guns N Roses, management, or hangers on reads this thread, i hope they come away with the hard truth that axl has to now deliver an album. He can't take this news like a baby and try to get dumped from the label. In doing so, he will lose thousands more fans and any credibility he has left.

He has to step and take this news like a man. Fulfill his contract and then think about leaving.  Release Chinese Democracy and show everybody why the GH isn't anything to be escatic about.

Hmmm...nice to get a new number.  Wonder if that is true?  Also, I just love this "a source says" crap.  This source hasn't got any balls if he/she won't let his/her name be used.  How do we know this is credible?

Oh, well...we've wondered about "sources" before.   :-\

If geffen wins this , lock stock and barrel , then they outta go one step further and release the MSG show as another "live" cd , only plaster the front with a big sticker saying " features 6 new songs performed by the new guns n roses featuring buckethead , brain , tommy stinson etc ...  (of course they would need to pull "silk worms" from rir3 soundboards and "the bedouins" from a soundboard of the show they played it at on the failed 2002 tour)

Milk the baby for what it's worth and get us even more official releases!  :peace:

I still say the best bet is an ultimate. Geffen should milk the back catolog for what its worth if axl doesn't release CD.

the next release should be called "GNR : Raw and Raunchy" and feature all the profanity laced songs , including one in a million!!

hahaha

i remember a source said that the GH was designed as the second step in pressuring axl to release CD; IRS leak was the first. The third step was leaking tracks on to the internet......

based on what i read from Geffen's source, it appears that this may very well the case; GH is a confirmed attack on the redhead's once secure position at Geffon.

Step one: Don't buy the album. :rant:

if that fails

Step two: Boycott EVERYTHING released by Geffen >:(

if that doesn't work

Step three: Civil Disobediance :rant:

failing all that...

All out hate mail campaign and then full blown riot on Geffens front door step!  :hihi: :hihi:

This wont sit well with him.... like i said before he very well may take his ball and go home.....

I tried to gain some insight into this troubling statement as well.  Pilferk & loretian made some valid points (see previous pages).... but I cant help feeling that the only reason GH is hindering CD is because Axl wants it to.

You can be against GH because of its so-called 'shoddy' tracklisting, typos, done without the band's consent, etc. These are all reasons to be against GH.  But as for hindering CD, well, just another lame excuse for a delay.

 :no: to people actually making Geffen the "villian," as if CDs delay is their fault.  Yeah, they really want to hold off on releasing the album theyve invested so much in and just sit on it so they can release a Greatest Hits record instead.  ::) Think about it...


And like I said, hell probably get sued and the material might get released without his consent.

That could take years in court and millions in lawsuit fees to happen...

I really think that Axl will push to get CD out. The GH can't infringe on something that isn't coming out.

its so fucking hearbreaking.... all this shit over some old ass songs that we all have anyways.....

Who honestly thinks the courts are going to side with Axl?

I would hate to see CD released without his consent - what a bittersweet ending that would be to this often sad story.

I guess it will depend on Axl's contract with Geffen. That is one piece of writing I would like to get my eyes on.

Personally, I think Axl (for whatever reason only he would know) has been trying to make Gefen go breech. -opinion-

The U.S. District Court in L.A. turned down GUNS N' ROSES' petition today seeking a temporary restraining order and preliminary injunction against Geffen Records seeking to prevent the label from releasing a greatest hits record from the band, according to Hits Daily Double. The suit claimed that GNR hasn't "been given the opportunity to approve the choice of songs, the artwork, the release date or the re-mastering done on the tracks included on this compilation." Today's decision clears the way for the album to come out as scheduled on March 23. A press statement from the band stated that the greatest hits set would "hinder the release of the band?s long-awaited new studio album 'Chinese Democracy'." Sources say that the label has advanced Axl Rose $10 million over the past six years for production of the album, which was slated to come out last year in the fourth quarter, but remains unreleased.

Please tell me you're not seriously suggesting harrassing a U.S. District Judge due to a ruling on a case?  That's just ?ber-fucked, if you are.

The judge looked at the case, decided GNR's lawsuit was without enough merit to issue an injunction - period.  GNR's welcome to appeal the Judge's ruling.  See, in the U.S. court system, that's how we do it - we don't go crank calling judges who make unfavorable rulings  ::)

-darknemus

With all of this going on, what are the chances we will get a official statement from axl?
 8)

Next to none - the FIRST thing the Attorneys are gonna tell him to do is not discuss the case, period.  They would probably advise him to not say a word about anything - especially given the possible pursuit of a breach of contract type case by one or both parties.  Anything you say can be used in the execution of said case.

-darknemus

That message expired because it was a year old.  "Stay Tuned" indeed.



I would totally ignore all of this.  Basically there source could be any Joe that has glanced at these message boards.  Examine the last few posts of Booker, it's basically the same shit this "source" said.

 :rofl:

I cant believe we actually have to spell that out for some people.

<sings Weird Al's Dont Go Making Phony Calls song in my head>

Please stick to the 7-digit numbers you're used to.  :hihi:

fuck around, you're not on the board for a few hours, and all hell has broken loose, i'm not reading 9 pages here, so what i got is that axl, slash and duff filed lawsuits against geffen to not to release gh....than something about a judge's ruling, have they already dismissed the lawsuit or something, sorry for being lazy and not reading, but if you wanna help out a young lad here and fill me in, that would be great, thanks



rock n' roll

Anybody who can quote Weird Al - especially on a decent but not well known parody of a TLC song is ok in my book :D

-darknemus

it could mean litigation, which everyone knows takes years.

i doubt buckethead, robin, brain, and tommy care about this case in court. They will leave when it appears that nothing will happen with this band in the near future.

Axl has one choice, put out CD and make millions. He can be a baby and take all of his toys back home with him, but the lawyers will come and get them eventually.

It said a spokesperson for W. Axl Rose was not immediately available for comment..

Maybe we will get a comment soon?

Well I guess we can expect an extra track on the RIR4 bootleg titled "Axl's Greatest Hits Rant".. maybe he'll claim that he first heard of the GH album a couple of days ago when he saw it on the net..

Wonder if Mysteron has any info as to the state of things in the GNR/Axl camp.. I have no doubt that this will seriously affect the release of CD.. I remember a quote from a source at Geffen which said "If the album was good enough if would have been released a long time ago" or something like that.. I think Geffen are seriously pissed.

Who was it that posted the theory a while ago about the GH being the first step to force Axl to release CD? Its all making sense now.

Although I think others have pointed out the same thing, you might be referring to me.  My main 'source' (a word I hate) gets all of his information directly from, well, someone or a group of someones at Geffen.  (No clue who)

He's the one who told me right after IRS happened that it was to be the beginning of the 'twisting of the thumbscrews' to force a release.  As time wound on, I got a few more details - most of which I shared when I could.

Yes, it appears that Geffen have 'reached their wits end' with the red headed recluse.  The last conversation I had with my friend contained a rather telling phrase now, in hindsight.  "Axl's dick isn't as big as he thinks it is".. Interesting conversational fodder, if nothing else.

-darknemus

See my personal opinion, is that once this greatest hits cd comes out next tuesday, and at this point let's assume it will, then that really ends this whole thing. Then it will really come down to Axl either saying alright, screw that let's put this thing out so people stop buying the GH album, or screw them I'm not releaseing shit. Who knows, but one things for sure, RIR 4 is going to be the most interesting GnR concert ever.....period.

Maybe now is the more appropriate time to  say.......... "Round One" ??????????

Thats right Darknemus.. I remember now.. your theory is making so much sense.

I was so confident of huge news leading up to or during RIR4, as Mysteron has been saying to wait, be patient and stay tuned until then.. but now I think there is a HUGE cloud over the future of this release.

Wonder what will happen next.. I dont think Geffen could release CD with Axl's go ahead.. it wouldnt make sense.. without Axl to tour it, throw a few chairs out hotel windows to stir a bit of controversy and hype.. it just wouldnt work.. im sure Axl would have made certain terms about himself approving the release.. otherwise this would have happened sooner..

I think we'll be hearing a lot more from the two camps in the coming weeks that could be massive for the future of GNR.

Let's look on the bright side of all this...
This is the first we've heard from the GnR camp in a long long time.

And even w/ out GHits, do we really think CD would have seen the light of day anytime soon?
This could be just the push to get Axl to make a statement or take action.
Or it could push him back into his own illusions of creating the perfect record. Probably isn't much inbetween.

Sadly, Geffen has every right to earn some money back. That's their business.

I really hope Axl proves everyone wrong here and throws us for a loop by actually announcing something soon to counter this, or hell, use this publicity to help the new project.

I won't be buying GH, because without band authorization and such, the liner notes and pics will probably just be generic. And why spend 15 dollars for a repackaging of what I've been listening to since 1987?

No way i'm buying that album now

IMO, this is the most important quote to come out of this mess as it sounds like the only ammunition axl has is to threaten to withhold Chinese Democracy.  And it sounds like he is going to use this ammunition to spite Geffen and screw the fans.

When the album comes out on The 23rd there's nothing left for axl to debate.  Release the CD as there's no reason to continue crying over an album that's hit the market.

I also agree with Booker, axl brought this on himself and the record company is not the villain.  7 Years and 10-13 million would fry anyone's patience.

For those who say it was close to being released, I think geffen knew it wasn't and that's why they proceeded with GH.

 : ok: to Geffen for trying to light a fire under this project.

Yup. Just release the album and quit making excuses for everything.

Damn,I can't believe I read all 10 pages of this,atleast it was new news.Anyways,I don't think I will buy the GH now,I was going to,but now I don't think so.I mean,it's not right,but I guess that doesn't mean shit.

Anyways,whoever really thinks Axl/GN'R care about their fans are kidding themselves,but that's just what I think,maybe they do care,but I doubt it.That's all. :smoking: :peace:

Very Very important article here.  I love every bit of it, it is going to let the fire under Axl's ass.  The only payback is releasing Chinese Democracy right away and touring the fuck out of it to prove to Geffen that Axl still has it!

I agree with you,it is interesting : ok:

What a mess..what I can get out of this is that first of all there is a big possibility for not to see Axl and co. at Rock In Rio 4 and second of all we don't need to expect the CD releasing soon. This whole mess with the label isn't good at all. It will delay CD and it will give more job for Axl with his fighting with the label.  

I have to go the opposite on this one. I think this means we will never see or hear CD. You push Axl Rose, he pushes back (even if you are a record label). You can bet your collective asses that Axl made damn SURE Geffen did not get the CD masters, and that there is something in his contract that says he has final approval.

I think Geffen pushed, and Axl is gonna push back by killing CD. It's not like he needs the money. No album, no tour, no RIR4, no GnR and I, for one, don't blame him. I know I wll get flamed to death for this, but 80% of his "fans" don't deserve to ever hear Chinese Democracy.

Flame on People!

I'll be the first to flame you...You have the same Axl picture by your name as me!

Mysteron: Do you think that Axl / Geffen can still work together after this GH- thing? Will the tour be canceled? Axl failed to release CD??? What is happening down there?

Mysteron, please give us any information on the GN'R's plan to release Chinese Democracy.  We are all awaiting any kind of news regarding its release.  Good question, will the band still tour and actually promote a product or are plans to release it after the tour?

How so?

"Every year there's been a new reason why Axl is not done with the record," the source told Reuters, adding that Geffen went ahead with the greatest-hits package only because Rose failed to come through with "Chinese Democracy." "Had he delivered this record like he promised seven years ago, this would not be happening right now."

Axl release Chinese Democracy everything is in your favor to release it the GN'R name is back out there so go for it this time!

Sanctuary will not move forward with CD until the Greatest Hits action has been resolved. How that affects everything, I don't know......and I am not going to ask at the moment as I would assume that the offices of Sanctuary are being bombarded with many questions from the press

Who knows. What would you do if you were Axl in this situation?

I only read the first 2 pages of this thread so what im about to say has probably already been said...LOL

Axl brought all this on his self!!!!!!!!! No one to blame but Axl!!!!!!!! I cant believe GEFFEN has been this good to Axl! I mean shit! What record company would give any fucking body 7 years and 13 $million$ to record an album???

knowing that AWL hates GEFFEN now.
well that is just so goooood news.

RIO is in 2 months.
we're fucked.

i remember axl saying something about how geffen doesnt care about old bands anymore, and how they just want to release a one-hit wonder band and then let them fall.
it was on a radio interview, like in 2002.
guess they already were against each other.

i guess all this wait, since rio 2001, was just legal issues.

axl was already having problem releasing his cd, now that he got his record company hating him, that is just worst ....

we will see..... but i dont see CD coming out before RIO ....

i also ask why didnt axl try to seek help from us, i mean, he knows we're loyal fans and all, he should have asked for our help, like an offcial petition he could bring to court ...
 

I guess the new band mambers must be paid hell of a lot for staying in this Chinese Democracy project that is almost inactive for years now. I guess after this lawsuit and delay of CD if they still stay must be all about money.

What a Fiasco GNR Has Become!!!!!!!!!!

i bought GH yesterday. the stores in Frankfurt (Germany) are full with the GH. this is not going to be a rare cd in Europe.

i guess the right question now is.....will GNR be in RIR4?

To a certain extent, we can't blame GEFFEN....I mean, Geffen have invested 13 million $ for 7 or 8 years now without any release of "chinese democracy".
they want their money back. that's pretty normal don't you think?

i agree. it sucks that the release of GH may cause problems, but i can't blame geffen for it. they have bent over backwards for axl.

any further delays or cancellations are 100% axl's doing. he knows as well as anyone that this is a business. so he shouldn't be surprised by geffen's actions.
 
slash and duff are probably pissed as hell at axl. due to the ridiculously long delay of an album (under the gnr name), a GH is gonna be released. which further tarnishes the name, and MAY hurt those guys financially.

I think that this is a sign that Chinese Democracy isn?t even close to being done. Why else would the Geffen release the Greatest Hits disc. Hope that I am wrong.

well I guess that RIR4 is history but I'm still hoping the best.

Then Geffen shouldn't have signed a contract that apparently allows this kind of procrastination from Axl.  If Geffen has been "wronged", they were certainly an equal party to it....

If things are so fucked up now and Geffen has all the rights to release the album I see 3 solutions.

1) Axl gets along with Geffen and releases CD.

2) Axl gets his revenge by giving the tracks to Geffen and the same day releases them on the internet.

3) Axl releases the whole album on the internet.


I hope he chooses the first one and give us the album as soon as possible.

"I guess we'll have to wait and see..."

That's a good question, and one you should forward along to Geffen.  How does a record label sign a contract that allows an artist 7 years to complete an album, with no apparent allowable recourse on their part?  Sounds like Geffen should have had their lawyers review the contract a bit more closely.

1). Geffen and Axl are responsible for this. Neither is blameless.

2). Geffen are idiots for signing a contract that allowed this to happen. Having to sink to tactics as low as this because of how long Axl is taking is pretty poor. A proper contract would have allowed for a far better solution to this.

3). Axl has obviously taken far too long in making this album, but as far as we know he is 'playing by the rules', i.e. honouring the contract which geffen signed.

The situation now?

1). Waiting untill this legal action is resolved..... how long is that gonna take?

2). I've tried to think about all the possibilities, but there are so many - Axl wins suit, Axl loses suit, who owns CD? Can Axl leave Geffen?, can Geffen release Cd without his permission?, will Axl decide to make them pay and not give permission?

This is gonna be one big long pile of steaming shit...... and we're all screwed as far as I can see.

@#$%Muther

only guns would have a greatest hits come out in this manner. talk about distancing yourself from a release. at the same time having the excuse to delay even longer. 13 million that is unheard of. Bands like no doubt and eminem are lucky to get 4 million per album to record. Micheal Jackson spent 7 million of Sony's money for Invincible and that was a big deal.

Axl has ass raped Geffen/Interscope/Universal :hihi:. Fucked over Clear Channel during the tour :P.

Guns are the biggest anti-establishment band in the world. They have always done it the way they wanted to do it. Fuck everyone else.


True Rock band..................maybe the most popular punk-rock band ever.

This is history in the making. gotta love it. just watching this unfold is worth it to me.  : ok:

"the drama" :rofl:

 :hihi:-5th- :hihi:

this whole thing is going to be entertaining as hell to watch .

I hate fuckin drama thier is no reason!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 :hihi: :hihi: :hihi: :hihi: :hihi: :hihi: :hihi: :hihi: :hihi: :hihi:

Kudos to Geffen for winning a battle against Axl.  This, in my opion, is the first really public backlash against since that god forsaken excuse for a tour a few years back.  I was in favor of Offspring naming their album Chinese Democracy too, cuz I felt it was a public message to Axl that this is ridiculous.  So good for Geffen.  Tell Axl that while he is great and all that hub bub, millions of dollars have been spent and you're not going to take it anymore.  (You read that last line and twisted sister pops in your head doesn't it.  Or if it doesn't it's there now, yes yes??)

I think that Axl's had more than enough time to get this album done and out to the public.

Enough with the bullshit excuses Axl. :rant:

Release the fucking new shit man. :rant:

Yeah right ... kudos to Geffen for feeding the fans with a shitty GH that neither Axl or ex-gunners Slash and Duff wanted !  ::) :P

Better to read that than to be blind ...  :P

its not about feeding us fans with a poor selection.  and first of all since when is this a poor selection of songs.  I mean yes everyone loves estranged and coma but lets get serious.  you put your singles on a greatest hits album.  thats what greatest hits albums are about.  i don't like it but i've never thought that these songs were terrible.

anyways this is about prooving a point to axl.  its them putting their foot down and saying enough is enough.  not about giving us a few singles.  I myself am not going to buy it but as a future business man if i had put millions of dollars into a project that seemingly doesn't exist I'd reach a boiling point too and try to do something about it.

I think Axl could surprise everyone if he'd say to Geffen's execs: "ok you guys, if you don't release that piece of shit GH CD, I will give you my full approval to release this 18 track CD we're talking about since 2002. we already have the artwork, the tracks are mixed and mastered, all you have to do is produce the CDs, in a few weeks we could release that mofo! whaddya say?"

Man, that would be great...

I hope this doesn't turn into a GH discussion thread, but people who listen to modern post-rock need to realise that their stuff is lame even in comparison to Guns' not-so-great material.

A reminder of just how great rock n' roll was...  :beer:

Where exactly did I say that the songs were terrible ? It's a shitty GH because we already have all these songs ... no bonus track... nothing ! No way in hell I'll pay 20 euros for something I already have.
On a personnal note, I'm a fan, I have the luck of not being a collectionist so I don't have the urge to buy something the band is not supporting.

And I can't see the point of being happy because Geffen is "punishing" Axl for not releasing Chinese Democracy ... The man brought me more hapinness than sorrow why would I be happy when something  bad happens to him ?
I'm beyond waiting for Chinese Democracy right now ... I'm living my life and just enjoying the ride ...  :beer:

Right, the poor, innocent label is a victim...

Bullshit.

Nobody forced them to sign a contract that allows this kind of procrastination by Axl.  Nobody forced them, if there is an "out" in the contract, to keep writing the checks.  The only one victimizing Geffen is Geffen.

Is Axl to blame for GH and the delay of CD?
Absolutely.

Is Geffen to blame for GH and the delay of CD?
Absolutely.

Let's not paint Geffen as some sort of victim in all this, eh?  It's really not their color...

How can it be a GHs album when 5 of the songs are not even gnr songs.
They should take out the covers minus KOHD and add songs like estranged, come and civil war.

well, "knowing" Axl as we do, he?ll problably say : "fuck this, I?m coming back to my playstation... Betaaaaaa!! my sandwich!!"
so, this is not a good thing ...


I think it?s normal... more normal is geffen gave axl 8 years, 13 millions and NOW axl let them hear CD and GEFEEN says: "OH MY FUCKING GOD AXL! WHAT ARE YOU DOING?! STOP THIS TOUR AND COME BACK TO THE STUDIO AND RE-RECORD THE ALBUM!" ...

I think Geffen is not stupid, they won?t put GREATEST HITS on stores just a few months before CHINESE DEMOCRACY to loose money when CD comes out... so, they ( GNR and GEFFEN ) aren?t talk the same "lenguage" anymore...

Okay, then why isn't It's So Easy on it? That was their very 1st single and one of their best songs. Maybe it's because the label finally gets a chance to sugarcoat this band. They edited Aint It Fun and don't even bother with ISE since they're some naughty words. Gutless.

The public backlash has been against Geffen, not Axl. Where have you been the last few weeks  :hihi:

With reference to money spent on the album, that is only part of a bigger picture. As mentioned in the Sanctuary press release, Guns n'roses have sold 80 million records worldwide, so consider how much income Universal have made from Guns n'roses over the years, then subtract from that the money spent on Chinese Democracy and other projects. You are left with a very healthy number imo

With reference to the situation as a whole, in my eyes the situation is about two factors, quality and decency. Firstly, regardless of what anyone says about them, the quality of the current CD release and recent DVD releases are not up to 2004 standards. They are poor quality items. And who is their right mind wants to be associated with poor quality. Secondly, I say where is the decency in what Geffen have done? You can argue that Guns n'roses have taken too long over their new album, but as many of you have pointed out, there are other things, less underhand things, that Geffen could have done about the situation . There is just no decency in the music industry anymore, in fact, there's very little decency is any industry anymore. So I for one appreciate it when people stand up against this and fight back, and that is all Axl is doing, in my opinion

Mysteron any comments on gnr future like RIR4 (will they show up?), Europe tour is being tried to arrange. What's the situation?

I just wanna say that this package was a poor one.

No extra songs, no dvd, no nothing.

These days you go out to buy a simple new release and you get a dvd, and Geffen is trying to make us buy a cd with songs we already have (most of us more than twice) with no bonus features.

The same shit went on with the dvd's.

Not a documentary. Not a "making of".

Fuck that. Axl might have taken a loooooong time on making Chinese Democracy (and I might be a little pissed at him) but I'm with him on this one.

So is Slash and Duff. That's gotta mean something...

Kudos for winning a battle against Axl? You've got to be kidding.

Releasing a shitty Greatest Hits CD with errors/no booklet and other shitty DVD releases? They are the ones who have a lot to answer for. Ripping off the fans in a cheap bid to get some money out of a situation they got themselves into.

They've managed to release a sub standard product despite the opposition of three members of the band (past and present). Way to go! Woohooo!

@#$%Muther

The case Courtney Love brought up regarding "You Know You're Right" contains some interesting information for our consideration regarding Geffen's dealings with thier established artists

http://www.metrokc.gov/kcsc/rulings/nirvana_1.htm (http://www.metrokc.gov/kcsc/rulings/nirvana_1.htm)

Right off the bat the contract that Courtney made with Novlesic and Grohl states that no greatest hits could be authorized without their unanimous consent...  
this would imply that there is such a thing as a record company (Geffen in both these cases) needing the band's consent to publish a GH or boxed set.

BUT when Geffen was taken over by Universal their contract was ammended to include that they HAD TO deliver to Geffen a 'boxed set'
no later than June 2001.

Also very interesting is the following"

Defendants Geffen/Universal argue that plaintiff Love's pending motion is "a purely tactical, legally meritless maneuver designed to gain leverage in her ongoing legal dispute in Los Angeles with Geffen Records . . . concerning her own musical group Hole . . ." (Universal's Brief in Opposition, at 1.) Similarly, citing the current Rolling Stone article entitled "Courtney Love Vs. the Music Biz", defendants Grohl and Novoselic urge this Court to take notice that Love's actions are taking place in the context of her desire not only to alter Hole's contract with Geffen/Universal but, as Rolling Stone states, also to "fundamentally change the relationship between record companies and artists."
It may well be that Courtney Love's actions are at their core utterly crass and selfish. Or it may be that her self-described attempts to "revolutionize the record business" are in the highest tradition of service to others which will in the end provide greater benefits for all recording artists, including the LLC, Grohl and Novoselic. It may also be that Geffen/Universal's actions are at their core utterly crass and selfish, or that they too are serving some higher idea. On the record presently before this Court, none of this matters.

Contract rights are not normally limited to those who are pure of heart. Only on rare occasions is a court called upon to examine motive, and the brief record currently presented to this Court does not provide an adequate basis for this Court to make any relevant final findings of fact or conclusions of law as to the motive(s) of any of the acting parties. The Court's decision on this motion for preliminary injunctive relief rests on fundamental contract law, and not on the histrionics of either side.

Under the section numbered "4" part "B" Paragraphs 4, 5, & 6 could be interestingly altered to read...

"While defendants wish this Court to conclude immediately that (Rose's )currently stated desire to hold back immediate issuance of (The Greatest Hits Package) is somehow wrongful, the Court cannot do so...

In addition, this Court cannot turn a blind eye to business reality. Corporations and other business entities regularly determine which contracts they will perform because they are beneficial or because they are too expensive to contest, and those which they will seek to modify or will simply breach because they have determined that breaching or modifying the contract would in the long run be advantageous to the shareholders of the corporation

There is a lot more that I found interesting regarding this case but as my post is quite long as it is I would simply encourage those who are interested in this kind of information to read it  

The court upheld her right to withold the recordings from Grohl and Novlesic..  Geffen wasn't ordered to not release it because they had no evidence that Geffen had the recordings.  In the end they were ordered to WORK IT OUT.  

I'd love to see the wording of the court's ruling yesterday.
No injunction doesn't mean they took Geffen's side.  Even if it is a breach of contract the court seems to be saying that that ITS THEIR RIGHT TO MAKE A BUSINESS DECISION TO BREACH A CONTRACTUAL AGREEMENT????

A little help here.. .anyone?

I'm happy someone mentioned that radio interview from 2002.

Axl did have a few comments about how the record company handles bands that have been around for awhile.  He gave off the impression that GN'R wasn't getting too much support from the company and they had been giving him a LOT of problems along the way.  I would think this is because they can just throw together a Good Charlotte, make a couple bucks, forget about them, and then repeat the process with another band.

I think both sides are at fault, but the record company might be the real shit disturber here.

Here's what I don't get, and perhaps Mysteron can shed some light on this for us, but probably not. Why on earth is Geffen still going ahead with this thing, when sancutary are planning CD release? Isn't this GH in response to CD not being out yet? Don't they know about it's release being planned, and don't they know it is "hidering the release of Chinese Democracy"?

"No injunction doesn't mean they took Geffen's side.  Even if it is a breach of contract the court seems to be saying that that ITS THEIR RIGHT TO MAKE A BUSINESS DECISION TO BREACH A CONTRACTUAL AGREEMENT????"

No, that's not what it says.  It says businesses decide to do it, not it is there right to do it.  Anyone can breech a contract, as long as they are willing to pay the consequences.  Many times, in business, the consequences are outweighed by the benefits..ie: a breech may cost them 1 million, but could make them 10 million.  If they breech, they stand to gain 9 million bucks...and as we all know, money IS the motivating factor when dealing with big business.


The fact is, breech of contract is not a criminal offense.  Nobody goes to jail, or gets "sanctioned", in the case of a Corp.  They're just forced to pay damages.  If they're willing to do that, then they can breech any contract they want.

Again, back to slimey business practices commonly adopted by the labels. :)

Edit: To clarify, the courts will uphold the explicit contractual rights of a "wronged" party (ie: issue an injunction or restraining order) if the breech is material or tangible.  Violating THAT court order would be a criminal act....I just want to be clear.  The fact the judge DIDN'T find that might  indicate the contractual rights either don't exist, or are vague and subject to interpretation...or so I suspect.

Just read this whole thread and there are some great posts here...maybe the best collection of posts I have read in a single thread.   : ok:

After reading the news about the Geffen win this morning I had formed an opinion...however after reading this thread my opinion has changed a bit.

I see two likely scenarios (granted that there are numerous other possibilities but I will focus on these two):

1.   This is a publicity thing to get GNR's name back in the spotlight.  The reason I think this might be a possibility is the timing of the lawsuit.  Axl has known that this GH was coming out for over a month now.  Why was the lawsuit filed after the album was released in some European contries?  The problem with this theory is....why are Slash and Duff involved?

2.   The other possibility (and the most likely) is that CD is no where near being complete.  Geffen wouldn't release a GH against Axl's wishes if they thought that CD was in the near future.  This leads me to think that the material on CD is not very good.  This is the most likely scenario.

Geffen is forced to release a subpar GH to either recoup some cash or to pressure Axl or both.  If the material of CD was worth putting out....Axl would have done so already (this is undeniable logic).  This is the most troubling thing to me because we have assumed all along that Axl would create a masterpiece....this was obviously flawed thinking on our part (maybe a fanboy/fangirl view through rose colored glasses kind of a phenomenon).

I think this thing may die now.  The material is obviously not very good, and this divide in the relationship between Axl and Geffen won't help.

I hope I am wrong.  Can anyone give me another reason why Axl hasn't released CD yet beside my stated reason of the material just not being good enough?

/Tulip

I hardly think we're in a position to make that assumption


How about Axl just hasn't decide it's finished yet/good enough for his standards. We know he's a perfectionist. Geffen got tired of waiting.......

@#$%Muther

TyRod,
  I couldn't possibley disagree any more with that summation.  In particular, this point:

"If the material of CD was worth putting out....Axl would have done so already (this is undeniable logic). "

I think that's fundamentally incorrect.  Now, if you'd said "If AXL thought the material of CD was worth putting out...Axl would have done so already.", I could, at least, see your point.  I think that's the crux: AXL has to think it's done.  Not us, not the label, not Bucket, or Robin, or Brain, or Tommy, or Howard the fucking Duck..Axl.  And we know, from past experience, 2 things. 1) Axl is a perfectionist, to a fault.  2) Axl has some insecurity issues.  Just because AXL wavers on the status and merit of the material doesn't mean it's not good.

As for your theory it's a "publicity" thing, again, unless both parties want to be found in Contempt of Court, using the legal system purely for publicity purposes would be one of the single worst ideas in the history of music.

I could go on, but I'll leave it at that.  I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.....

 :crying:

F.T.M.I.!!!

This is the most interesting thread i have ever read in the Guns n Roses section of this board in history.

Keep up the good work Pilferk!

Would your views on Lawyers change if you became one?

I might try to hire you if i ever do anything wrong! ;)

Right there, THAT is it. That is why I am for this lawsuit. Not the fact that it's against Axl's wishes, but because business ethics do not exist anymore and big business is now seriously out to screw anyone if it makes them a dollar. The fact this suit was thrown out is a slap in the face to artists, to consumers, and essentially everyone who doesn't have a higher-up job in a giant corporation.

Within the next few years, I think people are going to start realizing that the majority doesn't rule - an elite minority does. It's comprised of politicians and CEOs. And it's not good.

Punks have believed this for years, i believe it as well!

MTV, CLear Channel, Geffen, Microsoft are all prime examples of this.

Its sickening its ruthless but unfortunely there aint a damn thing anyone can do about it..in the case even Axl Rose....well at least for the time being.

Time is going to be the big factor from here on in and it seems like forever anyway but i feel the procrastination is only going to be extended as a result of all this.

No one is to blame but indeed both parties are to be blamed, read Pilfs posts, i agree whole heartedly with all of them.

When I say "people are going to realize this" I mean the average person. A lot of people know of the monopolistic practices of companies and detest it, but a lot more don't.

I would normally think anyone who said this is a complete idiot, but I really think a revolution wouldn't be that bad of an idea.

Thats where you're wrong cus i am a complete idiot, a revolution would be an exellent idea in business.

It should be stripped down to its bare necessities and this includes the music industry and thoroughly investigated down to the tee.

It could take weeks, months, years or decades but at the end of it, it will benefit everyone.

Im way off topic here!

Axl should sue the whole music industry, hell we've been waiting for 4-5 years for CD so whats an extra 20-30 years for one man to bring down the whole industry and start it afresh!

Here is yet another thing that is puzzling to me:

IF Geffen believes that CD is nowhere near completion for release this year -or- IF it believes that CD is not 'good' enough:

Then, logically, Geffen should have made GH the best possible record ever in order to get maximum profit!

You'd think they'd have proofread the text (no stupid AppetitIe), added a booklet/liner notes, and some unreleased material (like CrashDiet).

But they didnt! If they wanted GH as a means to recoup some money - then why make GH subpar?!



That was funny, RnT  :hihi:

Im lost
Jarmo can i get ur opinion in all this?
please

when we start to think about this situation..why should Geffen release the GH album if Chinese Democracy was planned to be out this year. We can only assume that Axl Rose again failed to deliver Chinese Democracy to the label hands. So Geffen, being pissed, decided to have something and that something was the releasing of GH. So now we can just assume that Chinese Democracy was never meant to be released in this year (2004)

Geffen probably did a half assed job on GH and the DVDs for exactly the reason they released them in the first place - to make money.

Minimum spent on creating them = maximum profit from the GNR name.

The only thing they seem to have spent any money on is advertising GH. We all know why that is.... more sales = more money.

MONEY, MONEY, MONEY.

@#$%Muther

Agreed.

I feel like Geffen doesnt care about this band at all.  What happened to the good old days when David Geffen personally rang up MTV to ask them to play WTTJ?

Now I'm starting to feel like telling Geffen: Get In the Ring, motherfukers!!

I think you hit one of the issues right on the head:  Geffen is no longer run by a person (David Geffen) but by a multi-national conglomerate (Universal Music).  As such, there are no objectives or scruples more important than making money, to keep the sharholders happy.  

Pilferk, I agree with mostly everything you've said thus far, but we keep referring to this hypothetical existance of a "procrastination clause" in Axl's contract...I could see saying Geffen was at fault for validating such a contract if this is a reality, but what if it's not?
     Perhaps Geffen simply had a good-will verbal agreement with Axl, based upon his previous successes or the potential for CD's success....While not the most brilliant business move, it must not be out of the realm of possibility, no?

It's not completely out of the realm of plausibility.  That being said, in an industry where you usually call your lawyer to check to make sure it's OK to take a dump, I find that particular scenario unlikely.  However, having said that, if that's what happened Geffen (aka Interscope aka UMusic) is, perhaps, the stupidest record label on the face of the earth.  Everyone on the planet knows Axl's a loose cannon....making some sort of "gentlemans agreement" with such an individual would be wreckless, at best, and could be actionable by the shareholders at worst (not that I think that likely to happen).  

Another scenario is that there IS an "out" in the contract, and Geffen has simply chosen not, at this point, to excersize it. Probably because they're motivated by the potential for big dollar signs in the future.... Again, if that's the case, Geffen is still playing the role of "enabler" to Axl's shenanigans.  

I'll say it again: There's PLENTY of blame to go around.  Axl and the label each need to shoulder there fair share.

Why do people always assume that Axl's motives (I don't mean you personally Tulip) for not handing the masters over to Geffen are because the material is no good. There could be a million reasons. As mentioned before, Axl is a perfectionist. Do you know that OCD (yes he is) people are not that way because they wants to be, but because thry HAVE to be. That is the way it works trust me!. I agree there are insecurities going on there, but wouldn't you be a little reluctant to put everything you believe in "out there" to be "ripped apart" by critics, reporters, fans etc.....
Finally, has anyone considered that for whatever reason, Axl just doesn't want to do business with Geffen any longer?


If the studio recordings and the album songs are half as good as what we have heard so far, then I think the material speaks for it's self. Just because Izzy and Slash leave, doesn't mean Axl suddenly forgets how to write music. Again there are many reasons he is holding it back. Perhaps legal ones, maybe he doesn't want them released thru Geffen for some reason. We (well maybe Mysteron) are NOT in the loop at all, so not one of us can really say what is going on.

Agnostic

1.  This is a publicity thing to get GNR's name back in the spotlight.

********


Not a chance.  If Axl cared anything about the spotlight, he wouldn't have blown off a tour without explanation.  If Axl cared anything about the spotlight, he wouldn't "work" on his album for years and years without ever releasing it.

If Geffen is releasing this GH album to force Axl to release CD, well that's just fuckin' blackmail and NOBODY SHOULD EVER GIVE IN TO BLACKMAIL!!!  :rant:

So here's what I think Axl should do:
1.  Destroy the master and any/all copies of CD (hey, we the fans aren't gonna have it any time "soon" anyway so it's no skin off us).

2.  If the appellate court doesn't rule in GNRs favor, then on March 23rd Axl should walk into Geffen with a big mangled up ball of recording tape and that great shit-eatin' grin of his and say "My dog ate CD.  Can I have another $13 mil?"  [lmao]

Good on Axl for standing up to Geffen and listening to the fans for not putting up with crappy products like the crappy DVDs with inferior technology and the GH. 3 DVDs and 1 CD.. thats 4 products Geffen have ripped THE FANS off with.

Does anyone remember back in the pre-illusion era, that Axl & Guns wanted to re-negotiate their contract with Geffen and Axl had threatened that they would not release Illusions unless their contract changed? The only thing that I can reasonably assume is that they went on tour because the album was at least 'almost' done. And almost does not mean it needed an extra couple of years work. They should have been able to have it out by next summer (which was summer 2003) imo. Since obviously this was not the case, I can only guess that one of 3 things happened:

- Axl had a fallout with the label and wants to sign to another one and release  CD with them, which obviously Geffen will not be too happy about.
- A bandmember or two left the band and they are/were looking for somebody to redo their parts and tour
- GNR has simply seased to exist after the NY concert

In any case, Axl seems very unhappy with the label and vice versa. After that lawsuit, I would be surprised if CD come out any time 'soon'.

Can you HONESTLY blame Geffen for wanting a ROI (Return on Investment)?  If the 13.5 million dollar figure is anywhere near accurate, I dont see them ever recouping that with just CD's release, regardless.  Let's say they spend 1.5 mil on marketing the disc and make 5 bucks per CD sold.  They'd have to sell 3 million copies, just to break even.. and thats not even thinking about the different distirbution deals outside of the U.S. and everything else.

Sorry, 13.5 mil is alot of freaking money - especially for a product that is definitely untested in this current marketplace.

I honestly wish some of the "Axl is the panacea of all things great and small" people would try to step back for a moment and look at this with a slightly more objective eye.  Can you REALLY blame Geffen for this?

(I realize that yes, they are somewhat at fault for letting this drag on this long for whatever reason.. but I specifically mean blame them for wanting to recoup some of their investment at this point)

-darknemus

Darknemus.. certainly cant blame Geffen for wanting some ROI.. but come on.. they were crappy products certainly not up to 2004 standards.

Anyway point im making is that the products sucked, not that Geffen shouldnt get some sort of return back  :peace: but this has been discussed a lot already so I wont bore people with it again  : ok:

BTW.. your theories and posts are always interesting and with some thought  : ok:  :beer:

some of you people are brainwashed.  How long do you take Axl's side?   Lets get real.  If you're thinking that Axl is trying to stop this because of the fans get real.  Axl is stopping this because its what he wants.  IF IT WAS FOR THE FANS AN EXPLANATION AFTER PHILLY WOULD HAVE SHOWED THAT.  Geffen is fed up.  We're fed up.  And we can all "critique" Axl here but when a major corporation actually wants something to show for their money they're just a greedy corporation.  

Its the nature of the business everyone gets rich by leaching on to others.  GNR got rich and so has Geffen/Universal etc.  To say that "Nobody forced them to sign a contract that allows this kind of procrastination by Axl.  Nobody forced them, if there is an "out" in the contract, to keep writing the checks"  HUH???  What do you think this contract says, "Dear Axl, you have the right to take our money over many years to spend however you wish"

They are a major corporation.  Hell if I gave you $5 bucks today and you said you were gonna buy lunch and I see you later and you haven't eaten anything I'd be pissed

Doesn't Axl have wolves? This could work, I have a puppy and he chews the crap out of everything. I'm sure a wolf puppy would be ten times worse...

I'm not going to bother going through this entire thread, but is Bucket out of the band or what.  If so, this band is dead and Axl has officially lost his mind and will never regain his throne again.  He needs to start promoting new material tell the fans why your suck a dickhead and keep us in the dark and tour all around the US.  If not everything is coming to a dark hault for Axl Rose.

No, he's not out of the band.

Wow, this morning I saw the news on two different news channels. For what it was worth, seeing GNR in a news story was still kind of cool.  

Anyway, here is a link for you all to read from cnn:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/SHOWBIZ/Music/03/17/music.axl.rose.ap/index.html